Glenn Greenwald’s ‘Sincerity Meter’
Are antiwar Republicans "sincere"?
When oh when are American progressives going to recover their moxie – the fighting spirit of their predecessors, like Bob La Follete – and stand up against the warmongering and the assault on civil liberties that characterizes the Obama administration? I keep asking myself that question, even as the apparent answer becomes all too clear.
The evidence that the long silence of the progressives will be extended throughout the already-started presidential campaign season was on display in Washington this week, as the confirmation hearings for Leon Panetta as the new Defense Secretary commenced. The Huffington Post reports:
"Robert Gates is due to retire as defense secretary in three weeks, but his named successor, CIA Director Leon E. Panetta, said Thursday he plans to continue Gates’ policies.
"At his confirmation hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, he spoke of bolstering defense spending, staying the course in Afghanistan and Iraq, treating al Qaeda as a standing threat and maintaining the most powerful military in the world.
"’Secretary Gates and I pretty much walk hand in hand on these issues,’ Panetta said at the hearing."
Imagine an alternate history in which the Vietnam war continued for another decade or so – and was extended throughout Southeast Asia. Imagine, too, that a Democratic president – say, oh, Hubert Humphrey, since we’re in an alternative universe – not only continued LBJ’s war policies, but escalated the war, and nominated war-supporter and US Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson (D-Boeing) to head up the Department of Defense. Envision Jackson stating in his confirmation hearing that he and his predecessor "pretty much walk hand in hand on these issues" – and then imagine what Senator William Fulbright would make of this pledge of continuity.
Unfortunately, today, there are no Fulbrights to speak truth to power. Instead, we have fake-"progressives" like Barbara Boxer, who, instead of grilling Panetta, chirped:
"’Good luck, and I hope the committee does this quickly,’ Ms. Boxer said after describing Mr. Panetta as her mentor and ‘very smart, but he also gets it.’"
It’s Boxer who doesn’t "get it": she masquerades, for the benefit of her California progressive constituency, as an opponent of the Afghan war, calling for a drawdown and rapid withdrawal, and yet she gives a free pass to Panetta, who wants to "stay the course." Fulbright’s ghost is railing from the netherworld – but, alas, today’s progressives are deaf to his pleas.
Not a single Democratic legislator of real national prominence has stepped up to the plate to challenge Obama’s relentless expansion of our eternal "war on terrorism," let alone stood up against the Obama-ite assault on civil liberties. Dennis Kucinich is the one exception, but his leverage in his own party is minimal, at best: indeed, more Republicans voted for his resolution calling for a complete withdrawal from the Libyan conflict than did Democrats. In response, the War Street Journal ran an editorial mockingly denouncing the "Kucinich Republicans."
Glenn Greenwald rightly calls Democrats on this, disdaining the "partisan tribal loyalties" that distort political judgment and rule out any kind of ideological or moral consistency when it comes to foreign policy and civil liberties issues:
"Democratic loyalists spent many years pretending to care about civil liberties and wars because doing so allowed them opportunistically to bash a GOP President; as soon as a Democratic President adopted those policies, the purported concerns for such matters all but vanished (just imagine the sustained progressive outcry if George Bush — rather than Barack Obama — were conducting an illegal war without Congressional approval, or if Bush had tripled the detainee population at Bagram while insisting that detainees there have no rights of any kind). Obviously, widespread Democratic opposition to Bush/Cheney terrorism policies was motivated primarily by partisan advantage, not actual conviction."
Quite true. But what of the growing conservative Republican opposition to our wars and the PATRIOT Act – do these merit Greenwald’s support? Well, yes, and no. Yes in the sense that any opposition to these misguided and downright dangerous policies is a good thing, in and of itself, but no in the sense that these oppositionists are, too, motivated by opportunism pure and simple:
"Is there really genuine anti-war sentiment growing among the GOP? I sincerely doubt it. If the last two years have taught us anything, it’s that the true test of the authenticity of claimed political convictions is whether they endure regardless of which party controls the White House.
"… [T]he intense fear of expanded federal power incessantly touted by "small-government" conservatives in the 1990s — dark tales of black U.N. helicopters, Janet Reno’s goon squads (i.e., federal law enforcement agencies), and domestic eavesdropping warrants issued by the secret and nefarious FISA court — instantly vanished as soon as a GOP administration began wildly expanding federal powers in the name of 9/11. With rare exception, there was no new federal power these "small-government" conservatives weren’t willing to cheer on once their party was the one wielding the power (just as there is no civil-liberties assault Democratic loyalists are unwilling to defend now). Given that history, it seems abundantly clear that the newfound GOP opposition to war and civil liberties incursions is grounded in the opportunity to oppose the policies of a Democratic President, not any actual belief. I’ll believe in its sincerity if — and only if — it endures into a GOP administration."
Insincerity abounds, because defending civil liberties and opposing unnecessary wars – "these inherently non-partisan and non-ideological principles" – "have been deliberately warped into prongs in the partisan wars — partisans care about anti-war and pro-civil liberties issues only when their party is out of power." Which is why "no effective constituency for them can be created. Beyond that, trans-partisan and trans-ideological coalitions are extremely difficult to assemble because tribal loyalties render them sinful and heretical."
I’ll tell you another thing tribal loyalties have rendered sinful and heretical: ascribing sincerity to members of the other tribe, which is something Greenwald seems unwilling or unable to do.
Greenwald is wrong, on two counts.
If we take Greenwald’s theory of partisanship to its logical conclusion, then no one is ever capable of learning or changing – and, of course, everyone is a cynical partisan hack. Yet his attack on the sincerity of the rising antiwar GOP’ers such as Sen. Rand Paul and the "Kucinich Republicans" in the House, is manifestly unfair: many if not most of them weren’t even in office during the Bush era, and, indeed, arose specifically in opposition to the free-spending "Big Government conservatism" that characterized Bush II’s reign.
Secondly, Greenwald is wrong about the defense of civil liberties and opposition to the militarism of the National Security State being "inherently" "non-ideological." Indeed, no more intensely ideological issues are currently at the heart of the national discourse. The revival of the Old Right in the Republican party and among the grassroots conservative movement is an intensely ideological phenomenon, one which inherently distrusts any and all government action – including overseas. The GOP Establishment is fighting a losing rearguard action against them, but they have the momentum and seem destined to triumph – precisely because of the disaster visited on the nation (and the GOP) by Bush II’s foreign and domestic policies.
Opposition to the gutting of the Constitution and the policy of untrammeled imperialism is inherently inscribed in the conservative-libertarian tradition, and the revival of this tradition is what is energizing the "tea partiers" and the rising "Kucinich Republicans." Except that they aren’t "Kucinich Republican," they’re Taft Republicans, as in Robert A. Taft [.pdf], the leader of the conservative wing of the GOP in the 1940s and early 50s, whose opposition to interventionism and the Warfare State, although not always consistent, symbolized what the liberal interventionists of the time derided as "reactionary isolationism."
Progressives, too, have such a tradition, one that was often allied with – and is inextricably linked to – the "reactionary" anti-interventionism of the Old Right. The problem for today’s antiwar pro-civil liberties progressives is that many of these old progressives – such as Montana Democrat Senator Burton K. Wheeler, and the writer John T. Flynn – inevitably became Old Right conservatives, simply because their brand of progressivism lost out to the "modern" variety epitomized by Franklin Delano Roosevelt [.pdf] and Harry Truman.
On the right, the neoconservatives soon took over the post-war conservative movement and imbued its anti-communism with a militant militarism which sought to "roll back" the supposedly ever-expanding power and influence of the Kremlin. This ideological hegemony persisted as long as the cold war lasted, but after communism imploded as an international force a movement grew up on the right to reclaim the lost legacy of such anti-interventionists as Taft and Flynn: the Old Right was reborn.
On the other hand, no parallel effort to reclaim the legacy of the old pre-WWII progressive movement has appeared on the left. That’s because the "modernizing" super-centralism of FDR has won a permanent victory among those who style themselves "progressives." The march of progress, in this view, is defined as the march of government power across the American sociopolitical landscape as the ultimate solution to our problems: and, except for a brief "New Left" flirtation with decentralism, that victory has been sealed in the policies of the Obama administration – and virtually unanimous support for them among progressives – which concentrate all power in Washington, D.C.
If government in, indeed, the solution to most if not all of our problems, then why shouldn’t that include solving the problem of terrorism in the form of the PATRIOT Act? Given this premise, why shouldn’t government agents be reading our emails, spying on American citizens, and prosecuting whistleblowers like Bradley Manning, who, after all, are defying Washington bureaucrats who know better than he what is in the "national interest" of the US?
If the solution to our problems is more government control domestically, then why not extend that general principle when it comes to foreign affairs? Why shouldn’t the US federal government extend its power and influence to uplift the poor teaming masses of, say, Libya – or Afghanistan – and fight until every last one of them has the rights that each and every American citizen has – including the "right’ to healthcare and public education?
The logic of modern liberalism leads us, inevitably, to interventionism, and not only that, but it implies a particularly moralistic and on-your-high-horse variety of "liberatory" liberalism – the sort we were treated to in the run-up to World War I, when Woodrow Wilson declared that we had to go to war to "make the world safe for democracy."
Greenwald, I fear, disdains the alleged insincerity of anti-interventionist pro-civil liberties Republicans, while displaying a less-than-sincere attitude toward the issue himself. In a previous column on Republican opposition to the PATRIOT Act, he drew similar conclusions about the role of partisanship in these debates, and averred:
"[O]ther impulses in that movement render support for civil liberties abuses inevitable as long as they’re directed at other people. The nativism, the anti-Muslim bigotry, the blinding American exceptionalism, the fear-based eagerness to support anything in the name of Security, and the instinctive reverence for GOP political authority all ensure widespread support among the Right — even those factions incessantly marching under the banner of ‘limited government’ — for the vast majority of authoritarian assaults on civil liberties. There has been some principled, strong opposition among some libertarian and "paleoconservative" factions on the Right, but those factions are far too small to make much of a difference. For the vast majority of American conservatives — including the self-proclaimed limited government Tea Party movement — the instincts that generate support for authoritarian policies easily overwhelm the instincts against it."
Now that the paleoconservatives and their libertarian allies in the GOP have actually gained some influence, and indeed are rallying to the antiwar and civil libertarian cause in greater numbers than their "progressive" counterparts, Greenwald still challenges their sincerity and attributes their votes in Congress to partisan opportunism. This not only ignores the process by which people evolve politically, it also calls into question the role "tribal loyalties" play in Greenwald’s own public pronouncements. Perhaps his readership — and the editors of Salon — aren’t quite ready for a world in which conservative Republicans are the leaders of a movement calling for an end to the National Security State, but one would have thought Greenwald’s contrarian nature would allow him to live in it without too much complaint.
According to Glenn, we have to wait until Obama is defeated and a Republican is installed in the White House before we can properly judge the motives of antiwar/civil libertarian Republicans and gauge them on his Sincerity Meter. I, for one, am not willing to wait that long – and we don’t have to. The reality is that – given the conduct of the "progressives" in Congress, and in the media, during the Obama years – it’s the sincerity of the "progressives," whose faith in government is apparently boundless, that really has to be called into question.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Edward Snowden vs. the Sovietization of America – June 18th, 2013
- A Note to My Readers – June 16th, 2013
- Datagate and the Death of American Liberalism – June 13th, 2013
- Smear Brigade Goes After Snowden – June 11th, 2013
- Edward Snowden, American Hero – June 9th, 2013





paul
June 9th, 2011 at 9:31 pm
Greenwald is a sad case of the lukewarmism of even those lefties and progressives who see the evil all around them. They just can't bring themselves to recognize that the evil really is evil, and that they need to rethink some of their political loyalties.
Ron Paul Cynthia Mckinney 2012
Johnny in Wi.
June 9th, 2011 at 9:54 pm
Great column Justin: There is a civil war brewing in the Republican party over these wars and a lot of other issues. I hope the pro-peace, small government faction wins. It was nice to see that mention of Senator Robert M. Lafollette Sr. He was one of my first historical heros. My mother and father hated war. I guess I am back to my roots. By the way my family was always on the right. I can remember when the Republicans used to attack the Democrats as the party of war. That was the theme at several conventions in the 50's. The Eastern, Dewey, Rockefller, bush wing of the party has always been for Wall Street and it's overseas investments, not Main street which provides the votes.
skulz fontaine
June 9th, 2011 at 10:09 pm
What is "progressive?" Given the Obama interventions hither and yon, well, there's gonna have to be a name change in the works. 'Pro-aggressive'. So 'pro-aggressive' would be just any other warmongering idiot but, politically correct in the process.
Duglarri
June 9th, 2011 at 10:25 pm
I think Justin is right and Glen wrong on this one; you have to be made of stern stuff to be antiwar if your're a Republican, because you have so much more stacked against you. Antiwar Republicans have to fight their own side, first; the tea party, neocons, the establishment, and the brainwashed grass roots all at once. All an antiwar dem has to do is fight his President. And he can argue that he's serving the people who elected him.
Antiwar Repubicans: it's a sign of not just sincerity, but an awakening of principle. The first in such a long time.
Yonatan
June 9th, 2011 at 10:26 pm
Oh come on. Get real. All US politics is local (as someone once said). Troops are going to remain in Iraq and Afghanistan until it becomes painfully obvious the war is pointless. Look at Vietnam.
Raimondo is as much a 'bash the otherside' as anyone. Convince me about 'Libertarianism'. You have come to power at last. One simple question. How do you fund the road network? Taxes on fuel? Taxes in general? Turnpikes everywhere? Pink ponies?
Don Emmerich
June 9th, 2011 at 10:29 pm
I appreciate you're sincerity, Justin, but I'm afraid you're incredibly naive, always willing to put your faith in filthy politicians. I seem to even remember you admitting in early 2008 that you had a "man crush" on then-candidate Obama:
"Obama kept mentioning the war – you know, the one we were lied into on phony 'evidence' of a nonexistent nuclear program. Not only that, but he kept reminding Hillary we should never had launched it in the first place: he needled her until she visibly squirmed. That was the hook, the lure that drew me ineluctably into the Obama cult." http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2008/03/07/con…
Yes, it's possible that these Tea Partiers are sincerely anti-war. It's also possible that WikiLeaks is a CIA ploy, that Dick Cheney planned 9/11, etc., etc. You can't read their hearts and neither can I. But, given the history of American politicians, it's more probable than not to assume that, once they're in power, they're going to change their tun.
Justin Raimondo
June 9th, 2011 at 10:52 pm
The early progressives, at least in the midwest, were against big-ness, against corporatism (the marriage of corporations and State, i.e. the "right of way" given to the railroads), so yes, there is (or was) a progressivism that isn't (wasn't) in love with FDR. Read Burton K. Wheeler's autobiography for more background.
Justin Raimondo
June 9th, 2011 at 10:53 pm
You make some very good points which I neglected to make.
Justin Raimondo
June 9th, 2011 at 10:55 pm
Toll roads, voluntary assessments — but please, I invite you to come to my house, where you can see the "road" Sonoma county provides… which is practically nonexistent!
Justin Raimondo
June 9th, 2011 at 11:01 pm
I'm not just talking about elected officials here, but — more significantly — of their supporters in the grassroots.
As for the quote you cite above, I was quick to recognize the reality represented by Obama, well before his election victory, and yet I hardly think the lesson learned from that can be applied to someone like, say, Ron Paul.
mezenc
June 9th, 2011 at 11:07 pm
Justin,
Just like Glenn Greenwald, you accepted the "Muslims did 9/11; it was 19 amateur hijackers run by Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan where he has caves with computer facilities, truck garages and fully equipped hospital."
Just like Glenn Greenwald, you have never seen a shred of evidence. You heard about stories from people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and you also know that he was waterboarded 183 times and there is not another non-Muslim soul in the whole world who you would think wasn't permanently out of his mind if he was waterboarded 183 times.
And all the civil liberties abuses flow from YOUR acceptance of that evidence-free official 9/11 story. I am sure that you and Glenn Greenwald even know about Building 7 and the bizarre official explanation that it collapsed because it just got too hot.
Mark W. Stroberg
June 9th, 2011 at 11:33 pm
Justin, great column! I think you're right about the rank and file conservatives, but Greenwald is closer to correct about the Kucinich Republicans in Congress. Time will tell, and, if we are lucky, it won't matter anyway if Ron Paul becomes the next Commander-in-Chief.
Ira7Epstein
June 10th, 2011 at 12:47 am
I have to agree with Glen Greenwald on this one. The assumption that any newly elected politician is nothing but a partisan hack is fully justified. Sincerity among politicians is the exception not the rule. How many Ron Pauls or Robert LaFollettes can you name? I also want to wait and see what tune these so called antiwar-pro civil liberties conservatives sing when a president with an "R" after his name is in office. When it comes to politicians (whether they call themselves conservative or progressive) the verdict should be guilty until proven innocent.
BuzzyBee
June 10th, 2011 at 2:21 am
Toll roads are the archnemisis of a free market because they are monopolistic and extractive in nature. Read any of the old classical economics and see their thoughts on any kind of toll roads or other forms of land rent.
Toll roads levy an involuntary fee (or tax) upon labor and trade, increasing the cost of doing business. Classical economics (in difference to neoliberal economics) makes a distinction between productive and non-productive services. (ie. between those who produce wealth and those who through interest, monopoly- and land fees redistribute wealth created by others to themselves)
Tray
June 10th, 2011 at 3:59 am
Recent history supports Glenn Greenwald. During the 2000 campaign, George W. Bush opposed nation building and foreign wars. Debating Gore, he said: "I'm not so sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say, 'This is the way it's got to be.'"
While Ron Paul's opposition to unnecessary wars has been consistent and his character has set the gold standard for honest public service, few other politicians in either party can match his record or have reflect his integrity.
Geo1671
June 10th, 2011 at 4:34 am
speak for yourself–who ever you are :^/
richard vajs
June 10th, 2011 at 4:43 am
You and Glenn Greenwald mention "tribal loyalties" as the dumbass reason why we are still occupying Islamic countries; still pursuing this ridiculous War on Ghosts. You are right – but not to the extent that the "tribe" in question has anything to do with any political party.
Geo1671
June 10th, 2011 at 4:43 am
Sorry Johnny come lately, nothing is brewing in the tea pot. Just an old political scam. 5yes-4no All politicians lie and once the heat is off–presto–back to the scamming. Republicans are jocking for the 2012 election and once in–nothing changes. Recall,Obama's promises during 2008 election? Repub/Demos,once in–Ueatsh!tfolks.
Dan Raphael
June 10th, 2011 at 5:49 am
Pro-aggressives. I love it! I'll use that elsewhere, if you don't mind.
Dan Raphael
June 10th, 2011 at 5:52 am
Justin, if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Paul supported Bush after the Republican primaries. No?
Seems like party loyalty trumped principle, there. I say that as someone who despises the "Democratic" Party, so this is no partisan jab.
Daniel Raphael
June 10th, 2011 at 5:54 am
I think Mr. Greenwald's suspicions are understandable. I also think this article is excellent. I will be referring to it in a discussion on another board where I have been pointing to Mr. Raimondo's writing as an excellent example of genuine–which is to say, anti-imperialist–libertarian analysis.
hardtruth
June 10th, 2011 at 6:27 am
"According to Glenn, we have to wait until Obama is defeated and a Republican is installed in the White House before we can properly judge the motives of antiwar/civil libertarian Republicans"
Not so. You can calibrate them now by their expressed support for Israel.
Johnny in Wi.
June 10th, 2011 at 6:52 am
The country is bankrupt. the Tea party is the only one that recognizes that. You liberals want to spend money to the cows come home. Taxes and inflation are the words that liberals love most. That is how you finance wars. Most liberals love wars if they help liberal goals like WW1 and WW2. They also like humanitarian interventionism. The only way to stop wars is to stop high taxes and the printing of money. That is the conservative – libertartian way to peace and prosperity. The less government the less chance of war. The less government and war means that liberty has a chance. The government that has war powers uses them to surpress disent. Look at what Wilson did in WW1, Roosevelt did in WW2 and this thsi Patriot act now.
kathy
June 10th, 2011 at 7:16 am
Justin needs his quarterly stipend from contributors so he won't question the "official" version of the silly 911 report. Even people like Robert Parry of Consortium News who finds a government conspiracy under every rock won't touch 911.
stevieb
June 10th, 2011 at 8:04 am
Actually, Glenn Greenwald is probably the best, most relevant journo in America today.
I see Justin's point – but being wrong occasionally doesn't take away from the fact that this is a very clever lad, and America needs more journo's with his standard's….
Mike
June 10th, 2011 at 8:21 am
If you can say that about Dr. Paul, you need to be committed. Dr. Paul has criticized and voted against Bush's policies time and time again. Why do you think the Republican establishment were actually laughing at him during the 2008 debates? Were you even paying attention?
Mike
June 10th, 2011 at 8:23 am
Ye. Because anyone (like me) who doesn't believe the silly conspiracy theory of an 'inside job' is actually secretly out for money.
mhstahl
June 10th, 2011 at 8:52 am
Why are they monopolistic? More than one road can be built to any place, yes? Also, is charging for food "extractive"? If not you have no point, if yes you are contradicting yourself.
Do you really think that government is some magical body that does not cause har by monopolizing goods and services, in this case roads? The current system is a total monopoly, and is "extractive" and phenomenally corrupt, yet you seem to be saying that "classical economics"(a theory or a person? Who exactly?) argues for monopoly by arguing against it and that government provides a "free market' through forcibly manipulating said market.
Come to think of it, I think i have heard 'economists",most of the "Chicago School" I believe, make just that case in other words….do you see how silly, and self-serving, it is?
If you want to read about economics, try Hazlett or better yet Rothbard.
Chris Moore
June 10th, 2011 at 8:55 am
It all makes sense once people (including Greenwald) recognize that modern Washington is the equivalent of a dysfunctional marriage, with “mommy” (the Left) fleecing the taxpayers with claims that its “for the children” and then layering the largesse on her cronies (ie government unions, social welfare programs, “community organizer” scams, environmental scams, foreign aid scams, UN scams) and “daddy” (the Right) fleecing taxpayer’s by claiming its “for national security” and then layering largesse on the military industrial complex.
Now “mommy” (the Left) is trying to move in on “daddy’s” national security racket.
Chris Moore
June 10th, 2011 at 8:59 am
The problem with statist-liberals like Greenwald (who is better than most, but still blinkered in this area) is that they can’t admit, even to themselves, that their side is all part of the racket, part of the dysfunction, and actually started the dysfunction by initiating the Big Government/Keynesian/Marxist-lite racket. We all know where these Fed bankster scam artists came from — the Left, which was in on financing the Bolshevik Soviet Union by these same, low-cunning types.
The Left forces conservatives to engage in warmongering to justify its national security largesse scam, which becomes necessary because otherwise the Left will continue to thieve, steal and swindle from the taxpayers, and use Big Government to do it, until we’re all slaves just as the people of Communist Russia became.
Pistol Pete
June 10th, 2011 at 9:15 am
"I hardly think we have the luxury of speculating about motive, one way or the other"
Dan, Greenwald has said that regardless of the motives he welcomes any and all opposition to military intervention. But, I don't understand why you think questioning motives is a "luxury." Most progressives (and a lot of us non-progressives) thought that with a Dem in the WH and Dems controlling Congress that US policies regarding military intervention and civil liberties would be at least a little less evil than they were with Bush and the GOP in charge. And we believed this because we (foolishly) believed that Dems were sincere when they criticized the Bush admin in these areas.
Chris Moore
June 10th, 2011 at 10:03 am
Excellent point. Slavering support for Israel and larger ideological Zionism is the litmus test, which is probably what scares Greenwald, given that the entire Democratic Party at the national level is Zionist occupied territory, just as is the neocon wing of the GOP.
Their support for ideological Zionism is what betrays these statist-"liberals" as utter frauds, and would-be totalitarians. Same goes for the neocons.
Dan
June 10th, 2011 at 10:05 am
Good question Pete; why don't we have the luxury to question anti-war/pro-liberty motive?
1. There is are no two more important issues
2. There is no alternate bandwagon on which to ride
The question of motive becomes irrelevent and whatever gets people excited must suffice.
Pistol Pete
June 10th, 2011 at 10:24 am
I'm in total agreement with you (and Greenwald is too) that opposing military aggression is good regardless of motive. My only point is that the Congress critters who are expressing anti-interventionist sentiment today may be voting for war with Iran in 2013. For anyone who votes, this is important. We need to really scrutinize any politician who suddenly jumps aboard the anti-war wagon. We've been burned by duplicitous politicians far too many times to stop being skeptical.
mezenc
June 10th, 2011 at 10:46 am
You think Building 7 collapsed (blew up, really) because it just got too darned hot in there. Ergo, no firefighters will ever again be sent inside a building because according to the US government, it could just suddenly blow up from the heat.
You think theres any other building in New York City, skyscraper or otherwise, that the Fire Department wouldn't send firefighters into? You think they do all their firefighting from the outside now.
QED
mezenc
June 10th, 2011 at 10:53 am
So, now Antiwar.com is censorship.com, too. And you wonder why you are so ineffective that we have new wars every time we turn around.
Curious
June 10th, 2011 at 11:39 am
Thanks Mr. Raimondo, I'll check out Wheeler's autobiography! We would be better off with a Progressivism that rejected corporatism and big bureaucracies. Corporatism is the elephant in the room when people discuss economics and politics. It isn't a flattering term so no wonder politicians and their supporters don't want to identify themselves with it.
I'm optimistic that change can occur but people are a blank slate politically beyond propaganda. They need to know the history of their ideas. What to accurately call political ideologies and what the alternatives are. I've talked a Democrat (who voted for Obama) and a Republican into being non-interventionist and both of them are planning to vote for Ron Paul. The Republican would even vote for Dennis Kucinich. The "Kucinich Republicans" not only defied the Democrats but their own party. That is a sign that there is hope.
Mike Cormany
June 10th, 2011 at 11:43 am
The left "forces" the right into warmongering? Hitler as victim. And who has been the party of Big Government since 1980? Clinton is the only one who shrank the size of government – although please don't read that as any kind of endorsement of Clinton or support for the Democratic Party.
Greenwald has said MANY times it's one party — the War Party, which is why he's got a genuine point about many of the Republicans who are now anti-war. As was said above this is about Libya-Afghanistan, both of which are easy to be against, on legal and budget groundl and following the polls.
Raimando makes some good points but his article starts to fall apart with this quote– ". . .virtually unanimous support for them among progressives."
Obama Democrats are not progressives, they are members of a cult of personality and they viciously hate those of us who realized the day he picked Rahm and endorsed rendition, he was going to be more of the same.
Mike Cormany
June 10th, 2011 at 11:45 am
I'm sure there are some republicans who sincerely oppose war, but I'm not making a list until I see the vote when it comes time to "deal" with Iran. If Justin thinks the only battle going on is in the Republican party, it pretty much negates his views on the left throughout the rest of it. Remember who Obama attacks and dislikes more than any Republcan — the effing retards or professinal lefties because we do not think he's anything but Bush deja vu all over again.
There is no lesser of two evils any more for either party. There is a War Party that believes in empire, perpetual aggressive war, forcefully taking the resources we need, occupation, ripping up the constitution a little more every day and keeping all of us under surveillance. And there are a few like Feingold, Grayson, the Pauls, Kucinich, Barbara Lee –some others -who somehow sneak in now and then. In many cases not for long.
I'd love to see all that end and wars never start but I sincerely doubt that is going to happen as long as this faux two party system rules and they will barring the political miracle of all time. And i don't believe in miracles. I don't think Greenwald does either.
Dan
June 10th, 2011 at 11:56 am
My underlying assumption is that the system is rigged and it will not matter who gets elected, only how pissed off the electorate is. As such, anything that would stifle excitement is bad. How's that for skeptical :)
marko
June 10th, 2011 at 11:57 am
Interesting column, Justin. I couldn't be more sincere in my hope that you are right and Greenwald is wrong. Which would make me wrong, because I suspect Greenwald is right. It's all well and good to point out that the Repubs in office now weren't there before. But it conveniently overlooks the reality that both parties have colluded to ensure only like minds come anywhere near actual authority or power. As well as the fact that as soon as Kucinich's bill looked like it might gain wider support it was quickly stuffed under the rug with no meaningful objection from the GOP. Those realities, the resounding silence of Repub party leadership (which has changed only superficially) during the Bush years, and the fact that I've been watching this merry-go-round spin for decades now puts me on Greewald's side of this discussion. Again, I sincerely hope you are right. I doubt it, but we'll soon find out.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
You know nothing about Greenwald if you call him a "statist-liberal." Further, you didn't even read the quotes from him in Justin's column if you say he can't admit when "his side" is part of the problem. Greenwald's side is not any political tribe, but allegiance to his principles. He is a strong supporter of civil liberties and human rights, not of the state.
Your problem is that you rely on assumptions and those assumption are sometimes, perhaps frequently, wrong.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
Greenwald has frequently criticized Congress for its blind and near-unanimous support for Israel. Maybe you should read some of his columns before you criticize him.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
I've read MANY of Greenwald's columns and his loyalty is to his principles, not to any political party or politician. You should read his columns before jumping to conclusions about him.
Chris Moore
June 10th, 2011 at 12:23 pm
There’s no point in criticizing Israel, the Israel lobby, and Zionism if you’re not going to take on the larger statist-liberal, Keynesian economic mechanism it uses to sustain and finance itself.
Greenwald’s position reminds me of those who argued that a majority of American Jews opposed the Iraq war. Maybe so, but an overwhelming majority of Jews support Israel and the Zionist ideology that facilitated the Iraq war and that partnered with the neolibs and neocons in the treachery, so their professed opposition to the Iraq war was meaningless, and in some cases a trick to dodge accountability.
The economics of Keynesianism and Zionism demand conquest and Big Government war and treachury to keep the Ponzi scheme going.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
It's easy for a Republican to be antiwar when (a) a Democrat is in the White House, and (b) the majority of his or her constituents are already opposed to the ongoing wars.
Sorry, but Greenwald is right. Remember Kosovo? Yeah, congressional Republicans opposed that, then supported Bush's wars.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
Yeah, the free market will give us a dozen competing toll roads to go to the same place. (sarcasm)
Instead of completely discrediting yourself, why not admit that there are some things that are best done by government to serve the common good? Police and fire protection are others.
Charging for food is not extractive. It is PRODUCING something that government should not. State farms didn't work too well when Stalin tried them. So there is also a place for private enterprise. It doesn't have to be all one or the other.
guest
June 10th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
here here.
Chris Moore
June 10th, 2011 at 12:37 pm
Hitler was not a victim, but an opportunist.
His "success" was enabled by Bolshevik mass murder in the Soviet Union, which facilitated his rise by whipping Europe into a frenzy of fear.
Similarly, 9/11 facilitated the rise of the Bushcons and neocons, but it was statist-liberal, neolib-neocon international micro-managing/hegemony/imperialism necessitated by the economics of the Keyenesian Ponzi scheme that triggered the attacks in the first place, if Islamist really did the attacks. And if they didn't, well then the REAL conspiracy was necessitated by the economics of Keynesianism/Zionism.
Chris Moore
June 10th, 2011 at 12:42 pm
Educate me. Is Greenwald not a Keynesian? If not, why does he write for Establishment-liberal, Keynesian-supporting Salon magazine?
Many of his other positions are irrelevant and useless if he supports Keynesian economics.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
Thank you. I just read that essay and it makes numerous good points.
My problem with libertarians is that they are so simplistic and one-dimensional in their thinking that they end up reaching wrong and counter-productive conclusions. Take the subject of toll roads, since that has made its way into the discussion. It is far more economical to have common roads than to think the solution is to expect the private market to somehow provide competing toll roads as one post above suggested. That would be a waste of land and other resources, and how many competing roads could one reasonably expect? Two? Hardly competitive.
The movement to privatize everything is nothing more than legalized piracy disguised as libertarianism. It redirects wealth into the pockets of the politically connected. Take, for example, the ludicrous idea that Louisiana Governor Jindal recently proposed to sell off the state prisons. His bright idea was that it would raise money (in the short term) to sell these buildings to his cronies. Of course, it would drive up operating costs to provide a profit to the buyers who could demand any price they thought they could get because the alternative would be to set dangerous criminals free. Further, it would compromise the public safety to replace decently paid, well trained, state employed guards with low-paid security guards. Jindal's scam was defeated in committee by only one vote.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Educate you? That would be impossible because you've already stated that everything is irrelevant unless someone denounces Keynesian economics that you probably know very little about. I've seen many distortions of Keynes' ideas, mostly by his detractors, but sometimes by those who try to adopt his ideas without adequately understanding them. (Keynes actually favored monetary policy to address all but the most severe recessions.) But you've made it clear that your thinking is narrow and your mind is closed.
Greenwald does not write about economics. He's a lawyer, not an economist.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
If Greenwald is so wrong and the Old Right is suddenly so influential, then why is Ron Paul as marginalized in his party as Dennis Kucinich is in his? Paul did about as well in the 2008 Republican primaries as Kucinich did in the 2004 Democratic primaries. I predict that Paul will do about as well in 2012 as Kucinich did in 2008, which was much worse than four years earlier.
Rand Paul (the younger Paul) wants to throw people in prison for listening to anti-government speeches on the premise of profiling them as terrorists! Is that the tea party's version of civil liberties? Or does it validate one of Greenwald's points about authoritarian impulses?
I apologize for being so cynical, Justin. Sometimes I wonder how you find the fortitude to continue the good fight.
fedupandsick
June 10th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
How did the "Kucinich republicans" vote on boehner's bill? I believe only 10 voted no. So how anti-war are they really if they vote for a bill that doesn't demand withdrawal?
Dan Raphael
June 10th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
The problem I have with this perspective is the same one I have of the "vanguard Left" that will never, ever, ally or cooperate with people of rightist persuasions, even to stop wars. You see (don't you know), it makes no sense to unite with those who advocate an economy that is itself war on people, that will strip them of ever support and protection, etc., etc. I am a person of the Left, so I am well familiar with this mindset and this argument…and it accurately mirrors this retrograde nonsense about how opposition to the culture, politics, and party of war is valueless if you don't agree with a much broader, underlying basket of views about the economy, etc.
I say: let us unite where we can…while there is still time and possibility to save what remains. If we don't, our snide sniping ain't gonna do us any good ay-tall.
cypherhat
June 10th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
How many Republicans voted against the renewal of the Patriot Act? How many Democrats?
Chris Moore
June 10th, 2011 at 3:42 pm
One needs to go back backward through the “progressives,” through the left-liberals, through the crypto-Commie element of FDR left-liberalism, through the Bolsheviks, all the way to Karl Marx and Moses Hess to understand the murderous, racist, economic scam, theft and wealth-transfer racket that so much of modern-leftism is to this very day (and so much of its poisonous spawn, right-wing socialism and corporatism is, as well.)
It’s all fruit of the same poisonous tree. So to say that conservative-libertarians who refuse the poisonous fruit should ignore the left-liberals who are gnawing away at the poisonous fruit and even make common cause with them because some of these liberals are genuinely anti-war is asking the conservative libertarians to engage in a suicide pact.
Chris Moore
June 10th, 2011 at 3:44 pm
If left-liberalism were to ever totally rule out, because it is inherently coercive and based on an economic racket and Ponzi scheme that can ultimately only maintain itself through theft and murder, the hierarchy of left-liberalism would inevitably end up using Big Government to do to the conservative-libertarians exactly what was done to the Whites by the Bolshevik Reds — mass murder.
I have no doubt Greenwald and other genuine anti-war liberals would not endorse nor participate in this, but I also have no doubt that they could do nothing to stop it, and would likely end up in some neo-Gulag themselves if they tried.
Because the conservative -libertarians have the moral high-ground here, let authentic liberals of good conscience come to them, not the other way around.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 5:03 pm
I'm not interested in a flame war, so I'll just say that your hatred towards liberals shows an unwillingness to consider points of view or information that differ from your biases. It was be pointless to engage you further..
Heathcliff_Maw
June 10th, 2011 at 5:05 pm
Not enough and not enough.
Paul H
June 10th, 2011 at 6:11 pm
At the grassroots level I'm okay with this premise of Justin's. The actual members of congress are feeding off that hence their anti-war views, I wouldn't attribute it to much else. I can count on one hand the ones that are sincere about this on a personal level. Therefore I'm on the side of Greenwald on this one. Another attack on American soil and those congressmen will be lock step with whatever the great commander in chief wants to do.
However the question I have been struggling with as a libertarian is whether conservatism has any value when I ponder what I'd ultimately like to see in terms of freedom. Ultimately freedom is what is unconditionally necessary for the evolution of mankind; it's something that I believe is worth fighting for. Freedom by its nature is, was, and will always be a revolutionary idea and that is a polar opposite to conservatism. When I think about it, the only thing I share with conservatives concerns monetary policy and with that limited government. By nature conservatives are spendthrifts and are for limited taxation which I applaud when it comes to government since it impedes their ability to limit freedom. However conservatives champion the status quo and that eventually leads to members of that status quo oppressing other members of society since they hold the power positions – thus my desire for a constant vigilance and revolutionary activity against this common human behaviour. As well conservatives love to legislate morality and that is something that no freedom loving individual has any business being involved in.
I think I share more values and ideals with those that value freedom, whether they are liberal or conservative. I'm more interested in building bridges with peace and freedom loving individuals regardless of their political label.
"Some of us still believe that, without freedom human beings cannot become fully human and that freedom is therefore supremely valuable. Perhaps the forces that now menace freedom are too strong to be resisted for very long. It is still our duty to do whatever we can to resist them."
-Aldous Huxley
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Here's the real problem, people: the sincerity of these politicians is not what matters. If we depend on their "sincerity," we can only count on two Congressional votes: Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. That's it. It isn't "sincerity" that drives them; it is ambition and fear: ambition for power, and fear of losing it. Only a mass antiwar movement, which will brook no compromise on the twin issues of civil liberties and military intervention, will force these politicians to put their votes where our feet should be. Voting, in and of itself, accomplishes NOTHING: never has, and never will.
—more to follow—
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 8:29 pm
—continued from previous post—
To all you people demanding the adoption of a social/economic prerequisite for unity: shut up and f**k off, whatever your persuasion. You want to make demands — here you go:
1) demand that newly minted "antiwar" politicians like Michelle Bachman publicly repudiate not only their earlier pro-war votes, but also their recent votes for extending the Patriot Act.
2) demand that the local and national "Tea Party" groups make the same demands on her, and others of her ilk. I want the sincerity of that "base" tested, not just the politicians.
—end part 2 0f 3—
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 8:30 pm
—and finally, part 3 of 3—
3) And, yes, I know that the "left" needs to do the same to their own equivalents of 2 & 3 above, but JR is making a pitch for leading the antiwar movement from the "right." Fine, I'm game. Don't just tell us about this reawakening on the "right." Get out there and prove that it's real. Until then, Glenn Greenwald wins the argument. If the leadership of an incipient mass movement can't put politicians feet to the fire from OUTSIDE of the electoral arena, then what the hell good are they? Until I see THAT, all the ideological shifting within the Republican Party and conservative "movement" is nothing but Brownian motion.
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 8:53 pm
Try this article to further emphasize your point:
http://www.amconmag.com/cpt/2011/05/16/adam-smith…
Chris Moore
June 10th, 2011 at 8:53 pm
Heathcliff: “You know nothing about Greenwald…Your problem is…Educate you? That would be impossible…your thinking is narrow and your mind is closed…I'm not interested in a flame war, so I'll just say that your hatred towards liberals shows…”
Whose engaged in a flame war? Whose being emotional and resorting to ad hominem criticism?
It’s certainly telling about the liberal mind, that it resorts to self-righteous, victimist innuendo, and ad hominem rhetoric when challenged by logic, and when its “humanitarian” pose is thrown into question.
It reminds me of women who’ve had unnecessary abortions, or men who’ve engaged in unnecessary wars and killing, desperately arguing that there is no God and life is irrelevant.
Though doth protest too much.
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 9:03 pm
And what exactly have these "grassroots done to emphasize their anti-war, pro civil liberties positions? Think about it — 200 "Tea Partiers" demonstrating against some Republican politician would get more media attention than 10,000 ANSWERers marching around the perimeter of San Francisco. What you do PUBLICLY is what counts; ear whisperings only count in the short term. If they are unwilling to put up a public fight on these issues vs. "their own" "party," all this "right" populism will be recaptured by the Republiscum estblishment, much as the Democroach establishment absorbed the political motion of "left" populists. You can't lead a popular movement quietly.
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 9:08 pm
Are you now going to publish "21 conditions" before us impure folks who don't accept your doctrines can be allowed to join your antiwar movement?
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 9:15 pm
Ad hominem? YOU were the one attacking with what no doubt for you are swear words – "liberal," "Keynesian," etc., not Heathcliff. By doing so in advance of any discussion, it is you who demonstrated closed-mindedness. Too bad you feel insulted when it is pointed out to you. You would have made a terrific Stalinist.
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
Right — it's all the fault of those goddamned Navajos.
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 9:26 pm
I wonder if Netanyahu considers himself a "Keynesian." Or maybe you think that one's position on a particular "national question" is economically predetermined. how is it you never became a Marxist?
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 9:28 pm
Do you practice in a mirror when you hyperventilate like this, or are you always breathless?
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 9:32 pm
Were you some kind of shrill maoist in the sixties, or was Trotskyoid sectarianism more your style? All one has to do is replace a few of the political nouns, and you could join the Spartacist League, or Progressive Labor Party of the 1970s.
A. G. Phillbin
June 10th, 2011 at 9:33 pm
And how many of them voted in favor of extending the Patriot Act?
silverpimp
June 11th, 2011 at 12:38 am
Agreed. This is a relevant and reasonable critique. Of course, Justin can just as easily substitute himself for Glen. Ultimately, Justin is still trapped within the dominant left/right political paradigm. Sure, he's in a marginal faction and tossing bombs at both sides, but these discussions are still stuck in the useless morass of our theatrical government. The politics is a sideshow to distract us. The real power is being exercised above the president's head by the military in cahoots with the powerful banking interests. Think about it, follow the money, connect the dots and you'll see for yourself, the politicians are irrelevant and moot. Their decisions ultimately don't affect war appropriations and clandestine operations. As long as we can get away with printing money to fund it, it'll continue. Your consent to this fraud of a system only perpetuates it.
TIme to wake up.
angelsliberty
June 11th, 2011 at 3:01 am
C'mon. Attacking Glenn Greenwald? He's not perfect, to be sure, but he is one of the hardest working anti-war figures around–dare I say heroic? Maybe there' a better way to invest one's energy and research than throwing pebbles in his direction?
Mike Cormany
June 11th, 2011 at 5:38 am
Yes, I realize Hitler was not a victim.Nobody forced him to do anything. Neither did anybody force the Right into their "warmongering". The Neo's were more than up to the task on their own.
Mike Cormany
June 11th, 2011 at 6:04 am
Phillbin, that was a truly excellent post.
Tray
June 11th, 2011 at 6:35 am
Please. Keynesian Eisenhower, lord of American peace and prosperity, forced the Zionists to give back the Suez Canal. Not until the neo-liberals, the free-trade, open-border crowd, took over did the Zionists take over. Open your Zionist cookbook and read the recipe for wold domination: two cups of unchecked banksters to one cup of sap free traders.
MvGuy
June 11th, 2011 at 8:34 am
Good comment silverpimp……… When the dollar sandcastle goez out to sea brought down by the crashing tidess of debt and penury…..so will the dreams of perpetual war….and the endless empire……….. For ideas check The Thousand Year Reich……. How many gallons of $4OO.OO a gallon gassing can any institution suborn…???
MvGuy
June 11th, 2011 at 8:57 am
How do toll roads become created..?? Does the State sell it's "Free Roads" to corporations or do they steal them the nu-fashioned way, by eminent domain…… Nice choice……. See http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/11/1…
MvGuy
June 11th, 2011 at 9:03 am
Good Job Maw……… You are knocking these ponys out of the park one after the other..
Heathcliff_Maw
June 11th, 2011 at 10:02 am
Thank you, A.G.
Smith, the philosophical father of free market economics, also warned that banks needed to be tightly regulated. http://adamsmithslostlegacy.blogspot.com/2010/03/…
Smith's warnings were ignored in the 1980's to 2000 when all of the banking deregulation took place (that was supported by the crooks in BOTH parties). Smith was proven absolutely right in 2008 when the Big Fraud led to the financial meltdown, TARP and the Great Recession.
I wonder what motivates Libertarians to be so extreme in their anti-government thinking. As a liberal (not to be confused with Democrat), I am sympathetic to vigilance against a big, oppressive government. I also recognize that the primary function of big government is to redirect wealth from the many to the politically connected few, like those in the military-industrial complex. But I also recognize that it is impossible to have a civil society without government (I've given it lots of thought) and there are some things that are best done through government. Are libertarians just so resentful of paying taxes–at virtually any level and for any purpose–that they cannot acknowledge any use for government?
Heathcliff_Maw
June 11th, 2011 at 10:25 am
I will be generous and offer you some food for thought.
First, before you try lecturing anyone on Keynes, please define "liquidity trap." It is the condition that Keynes addressed that could not be solved by monetary policy.
Secondly, you make it clear that you are rigid in your thinking and intolerant of any dissent. That is a character flaw, and pointing it out is not an ad hominem attack. I'm not trying to discredit your arguments by pointing it out; I am explaining why it would be impossible to have a useful discussion with you.
Thirdly, I get the strong impression that your mind has been polluted by barking propagandists who demonize liberals in order to frighten you into their camp like one of a flock of sheep shepherded to the slaughter house. Everything you think you know about Keynes or liberals comes to you from the likes of Rush Limbaugh and/or Glenn Beck, Michael Savage, Ann Coulter or some other liberal-hating fascist(s). Those people have an agenda and it is not to serve you or the general good. They fool you into thinking that liberals are a threat to you, are depraved, have ill will or are just too stupid to know the error of their ways, etc. And you bleat back "two legs bad; four legs good." (That's an Animal Farm reference.)
You can either live in the cold comfort of hatred of the others or you can open your mind to the truth. The former will not make you a better person, only arrogant, smug, frightened and bitter. The latter could cause some major cognitive dissonance, so you would have to be determined to see it through. If you do, you will be wiser and more aware of who is really out to get you.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 11th, 2011 at 10:26 am
Thank you.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 11th, 2011 at 10:41 am
It's true that gauging the sincerity of politicians is about as useful as multiplying zero by ever larger numbers to get a positive result. We must force them to do what we want. Otherwise, special interests will vote with dollars and favors and will call all the shots.
Chris Moore
June 11th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
Even mild Keynesianism can only work for a period of time if there is an economically responsible, patriotic, and mature leadership and elite at the helm who won’t plunder a country’s credit.
Modern liberals and the neolibs/neocons are none of those things.
PS: I agree with you on open borders and free trade. Pat Buchanan had it right decades ago. That’s why I subscribe to libertarian nationalism instead of pure libertarianism.
Chris Moore
June 11th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
I’m sure Netanyahu is all for Keynesianism…in America. It’s what finances his Zionist ideology, agenda and aggression. It’s one reason America is in the Middle East propping up the dollar at gunpoint, and simultaneously acting as Israel’s bodyguard/enforcer/enabler/lackey.
The Bushcons/Cheneyits/neocons figured they could use 9/11 as a pretext start wars that would kill two birds with one stone: re-enforce Zionist supremacism, and perpetuate the dollar hegemony necessitated by Keynesianism.
Chris Moore
June 11th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
Marxist economics is merely an extreme version of the Keynesian racket. Both concepts are the products of grifters intent on plundering a country’s resources and credit (Keynesianism at a slightly slower pace than Marxism), and sold to masses of people with child-like minds who want to believe there is such a thing as a free lunch, and who want to believe the government can make money grow on trees indefinitely.
Chris Moore
June 11th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
Please. Spare me your liberal platitudes. The commies also tried to sell their murderous racket with humanitarian platitudes like “social justice” — which a lot of liberals pretended to believe even in the face of Communist mass murder.
Liberal moral authority is crumbling faster than the American Empire. Liberals are the morally and intellectually defective passive-aggressives who turned the Democrat Party over to the Zionists the second they started playing the “anti-Semitism” card, and because the new they were cunning an ruthless political hatchet men, like the moral-defective liberal Weiner .
Yes, I despise Keynesian liberals as much as I despise Keynesian neocons. And they’ve both earned every ounce of contempt. That more people don’t despise both is an indicator of how far we have fallen as a country, socially, morally and intellectually, under Keynesian/liberal/State Capitalist hegemony.
Chris Moore
June 11th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Do I come across as angry? It's too bad more people aren't angry. It might have prevented the country from being taken over by Zionists, neolibs, neocons, liberal frauds and murderous psychopaths.
Why aren't you angry? Are you part of the racket?
Chris Moore
June 11th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
The question is: who is best morally, intellectually and ideologically suited to stop the runaway Empire and its attempts to enforce Keynesian/Zionist/Globalist hegemony? Who has the least amount of blood on its hands, and who is the least vested in perpetuating the bloody status-quo?
Not corrupt liberalism. It had its shot with Obama, and has failed miserably.
The Ron Paul wing of the GOP is the only plausible hope, but liberals like Greenwald simply can’t bring themselves to get behind him, or people like him such as son Rand.
This makes them part of the problem to the extent that they divert political energy and moral authority away from the Paul’s and towards the corrupt, liberal status-quo.
A. G. Phillbin
June 11th, 2011 at 1:34 pm
You come across not only as angry, but also as rigid and stupid. It makes you think that everyone who doesn't think like you is "part of the racket." It's a moronic way to communicate.
Robert Brager
June 11th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
You do know that Greenwald is under constant attack by the Salon regulars who comment on his blog posts for his spirited and constant defense of the Pauls, right? Greenwald's usually quite careful to present the positions of the Pauls as they are and not the twisted depictions tossed around carelessly by their usual political detractors. That, coupled with his accepting an invite to a Cato event, have left him under constant attack by the so-called liberals you rightly take issue with here.
Greenwald's always struck me as a principled individual, for the most part, and I'm left a little bewildered that he'd be the target of a Raimondo column, albeit a soft target.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 11th, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Was it liberals who turned over the Republican party to Zionists? The first mistake you make is thinking Democrat=liberal. The second is not knowing that most of the people in this country who oppose the "special relationship" with Israel are liberals. I am not referring to politicians. The third is is being too naive to know that politicians sell out to special interests and thus don't represent any political philosophy, though they may give lip service to certain dog-whistle ideas like "small government."
You still can't define "liquidity trap," yet you continue your mindless, blind rage against Keynes.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 11th, 2011 at 5:21 pm
Obama is a liberal? LOL! You should see the way the liberals over at Firedog Lake constantly–and correctly–criticize him for being a corporatist con man who has adopted, and even expanded, all of Bush's worst foreign and justice policies. If you visit Huffington Post, then you will find some people who share those opinions, but mostly you will find Democratic partisan dolts who can't face the truth about Obama and still think he's all about hope and change. (Republican partisan dolts think Obama is a socialist and can't face the truth that Bush was a horrible, proto-fascist president just like Obama.)
Obama is a politician. Very few politicians at the federal level (White House or Congress), whether Democratic or Republican, have any principles other than exercising and expanding their power and pleasing the moneyed interests who sponsor them.
If you do visit the Firedog Lake site, then please keep your liberal-statist-Keynesian-Zionist simplistic blame game contained to this site. I'd feel bad if they had to put up with your ranting because I sent you there.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 11th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
Oh! One other thing. In 2008 Ron Paul did receive support from many liberals, including me. I contributed to one of his money bombs.
You make too many assumptions.
Chris Moore
June 11th, 2011 at 8:08 pm
The fact is, Establishment liberalism simply has too many special interests feeding at the Big Government trough to effect change. It will maintain the current leviathan status-quo until the country collapses economically.
Some liberals seem to have calculated that all of that lucre being wasted on the military-industrial complex can be reigned in and diverted to them to perpetuate the status quo, but this will never happen, because the military is largely a Keynesian right-wing jobs program just as federal government unions are largely Keynesian left-wing jobs programs.
The liberals claim the federal government union jobs are “essential” to running America, and the neocons claim the military-industrial complex is “essential” to national security. Both sides are merely playing the Keynesian game. It's a dishonest, selfish, destructive, sham game that is destroying the country.
Chris Moore
June 11th, 2011 at 8:12 pm
The Greenwald defenders have a point; he’s probably among the last on the left who deserves criticism. But where the rubber meets the road, he seems to believe the liberal status-quo can be salvaged, and he additionally ridicules the government skeptics on the Right as essentially cranks and conspiracy theorists (e.g. the Clinton-era “dark tales of black U.N. helicopters, Janet Reno’s goon squads (i.e., federal law enforcement agencies), and domestic eavesdropping warrants issued by the secret and nefarious FISA court”).
Yet, as it turns out, all of the worst fears of those paranoids on the Right who were so suspicious of where the liberal status-quo was taking us have materialized in spades.
Why can’t Greenwald admit they were right all along? He’s caught in the dualistic, zero-sum paradigm world view, wherein if the left-wing loosens its reins, the right-wing will immediately take up the slack, and people who trust the good will of anyone on the other side are “suckers.”
Chris Moore
June 11th, 2011 at 8:14 pm
This same world view, for example, is exactly why the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations never go anywhere. And it is a world view that has increasingly infected America.
Yet Ron Paul and conservative-libertarian’s long track record of principled opposition to war and Empire should be enough to convince anyone. Paul is exactly the kind of politician that will stick to his principles and can be trusted to do so. So why won’t Greenwald get on board the Ron Paul train instead of running down the Tea Party movement that could carry him to victory as inhabited by paranoids?
I don’t know, maybe he will. Some people here say he’s moving in that direction, but he also seems to quickly lapse into sneering liberalism at even the thought of the Right.
Dani
June 12th, 2011 at 8:05 am
I enjoy reading both Justin's and Glenn's columns on a regular basis, and I'm sort of saddened to see Justin take Glenn to task over his rightful suspicion of *any* politician. Paul and Kucinich are the only notable exceptions to that rule, and while Glenn disagrees with Paul in several areas, he's always said that Paul can be counted on for anit-interventionism.
Glenn is right is saying that politics is really all about opportunism, and I think that line of thinking manifests itself daily. And Glenn is completely correct — the 'anti-government' Right that vilified everything the Clintonistas did went happily to sleep when Bush Jr. came into office, and become power-worshippers til Obama came along. Only then did their 'deep seated, anti-government' principles come back to the forefront.
As its quite possible that Obama may be unseated next year, and we'll get some crazed GOP nutjob sitting in the White House, I'l be very interested to see if the Tea Party and the new crop of GOP "awakened" paleos will continue to oppose a Republican President's wars or not.
Again, I like Justin and Glenn a lot, but my instincts tell me that Glenn will very likely be vindicated on this one.
Heathcliff_Maw
June 12th, 2011 at 11:21 am
You make a lot of unsupported statements about what Glenn Greenwald thinks. And who are the "they" who were "right all along"? Are they the Republican politicians who opposed Clinton's intervention in Kosovo but supported Bush's war on Iraq and mission creep in Afghanistan, then flip flopped on Bush's wars after they became Obama's unpopular wars?
At what point in their hypocrisy were they right all along?
How dare Greenwald be skeptical of the sincerity of partisan flip floppers?
As luck would have it, there is an article published today on Keynes that explains some of his ideas and why some people have been bamboozled into hating him. You see, Keynes–who was very much a capitalist–explains how a great concentration of capital in a small number of hands ultimately decreases production and impoverishes a society. (We see this in the corrupt Third World.) This provides a justification for a progressive tax structure. Certain very selfish rich people don't like that. So they spend some of their money on "think tanks" that crank out specious economic theories and talking points for corrupt politicians and blowhard pundits. Read it if you are willing to risk having some cherished ideas challenged.
http://firedoglake.com/2011/06/12/consumption-%E2…
A. G. Phillbin
June 12th, 2011 at 9:31 pm
Are you sure that's what Netanyahu considers himself? What about Ayn Rand? Was she a Keynesian?
A. G. Phillbin
June 13th, 2011 at 7:47 pm
I wonder how many of the so-called "libertarians" in the comments section carrying on as if the corrupt, nihlilistic American conservatism can be salvaged sand taken back from neocon Republicans through "reform" themselves making a living by feeding parasitically off Mommy and Daddy, or an inheritance therefrom, and call it "free market entrepreneurship?"
At least one that I can think of.
Two can play your stupid game.
Chris Moore
June 14th, 2011 at 9:23 am
It's not Ron Paul libertarians who pulled a bait and switch, ran on an anti-war platform, and then escalated the wars. It's the left-liberal establishment.
I'll tell you what, Phillibin, let's elect Ron Paul and see if he pulls an Obama. If he does, you can say you were right.
PS: Why do liberals feel compelled to go around calling conservatives they disagree with "stupid' instead of debating rationally and respectfully? And why do they act as if the statist-left is giving the masses a hand up when in fact it is getting rich by fleecing them (and future Americans by burying them in debt) right along with the neocon State Capitalists?
Your grand pose of righteous indignation wears thin.
A. G. Phillbin
June 15th, 2011 at 10:08 am
If you want to know why I call you "stupid," reread your answer above, and show me exactly how it relates to anything I've said here. Did I not say I considered Ron Paul "sincere," or are you too unsubtle to read for comprehension? For your information, I was a registered Republican for 3 months in 2008, and voted for RP in the primary. I also gave him money. So take your moronic assumptions and behavior and shove them up your ass.
—–continued nest post——
A. G. Phillbin
June 15th, 2011 at 10:10 am
Now, to the "substance" of post:
Firstly, what "left-liberal" "establishment?" Dennis Kucinich? Mother Jones magazine? Or do you mean such "liberal" stalwarts as Lieberman, Clinton, and Obama & such news outlets as MSNBC? Your problem, which you need to wipe from your limited intellect, is that you can't distinguish between "Democrat" and "liberal." Hint: the categories overlap; they are not synonyms. Try some set theory. Or look up the "Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle." You lump everyone to the left of Pat Buchannan in one category, and assume that they are all really identical under the skin. I've met more than my share of idiot leftists who think in exactly the same fashion, but from an "opposite" viewpoint, so you are not even original. It's as if some leftoid were to say "fascists, libertarians, conservatives, and most liberals all favor free enterprise and help big business, so they really are all part of the same scam." I will never be convinced by someone of your logical (not political) ilk.
————–continued next post———
A. G. Phillbin
June 15th, 2011 at 10:11 am
As for electing Ron Paul and seeing if "pulls an Obama," it is irrelevant. It isn't RP I would expect to "pull an Obama" in that case, but Congress and the Supreme Court, and essentially reduce RP to an Obama in terms of effectiveness, not ideology. Even Obama didn't "pull an Obama" overnight. Look how the Republiscums jumped on his Democroach ass when he tried to close Gitmo.
–cont'd next post–
A. G. Phillbin
June 15th, 2011 at 10:12 am
—& finally—
PS: why do self-styled "conservatives" choose to attack people and treat them as enemies when starting a discussion, and then whine when they are treated in kind, and start gibbering about "rational and respectful" discourse? You want respect? Give respect in the first place, or f*ck off. If you expect otherwise, you really ARE stupid. As for the rest of your PS, the question is deliberately unanswerable, as it contains an accusation that those it is directed at don't agree with. It is often how stupid people argue, as a means of avoiding the civil discourse they claim to want.
Your grand pose of political omniscience and rectitude was thin in the first place. If you actually detected "righteous indignation" in my posts, it is merely a case of psychological projection.
Chris Moore
June 17th, 2011 at 8:33 pm
I seemed to have touched a nerve…or caught Philbin at the wrong time of the month.
A. G. Phillbin
June 17th, 2011 at 11:14 pm
I guess that's all you've got left in your quiver, now that your idiocy has been exposed. Charming, aren't you?
Chris Moore
June 18th, 2011 at 11:50 am
Phillibin: ‘Your problem, which you need to wipe from your limited intellect, is that you can't distinguish between "Democrat" and "liberal."‘
You’re deluded if you believe there’s some profound difference between the major factions of liberalism, who have for years told us how anti-authoritarian they are even as they never miss an opportunity to grow government in one area or another in order to use it to coercively impose their half-baked thinking and agenda on others.
Good ideas will find a constituency in the marketplace of ideas and don’t need government to do anything than keep a minimum presence and neutral peace.
Authentic, minimal government liberals simply call themselves libertarians instead of going through all of the phony gyrations of how they are so different than this liberal faction or that.
Self-deceivers and frauds try to have it all ways.
A. G. Phillbin
June 18th, 2011 at 11:13 pm
And you're an idiot if you believe in the existence of "major factions of liberalism," or whatever gibberish you choose to make into an undifferentiated category. To you, everything to the left of Pat Buchannan (and perhaps even a few to his right) is "a faction of liberalism," even if the people so designated don't see themselves that way, or follow the script you think they do. Like I said before: look up set theory, or the Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle. Otherwise, you will continue to gibber in the manner of a wind up ideologue. You convince no one, except yourself. It is the main reason you speak the way you do. It is lazy mindedness in the service of self indoctrination. Feel free to talk about how you touched a nerve, or make insinuations about my biological functioning. It's all you've got.
Chris Moore
June 19th, 2011 at 8:47 am
“Feel free to talk about how you touched a nerve, or make insinuations about my biological functioning. It's all you've got.”
I was merely throwing it out as one possible explanation for you emotional, irrational, illogical hyperventilating and relentless personal attacks, eg:
“you want to know why I call you "stupid,"… are you too unsubtle to read for comprehension?…take your moronic assumptions and behavior and shove them up your ass…Your problem, which you need to wipe from your limited intellect…you are not even original…Give respect in the first place, or f*ck off… now that your idiocy has been exposed…It is lazy mindedness…”
Chris Moore
June 19th, 2011 at 8:48 am
A less charitable explanation would be that you’re part of the Keynesian racket and protecting a milk ticket that comes at the expense of massive national debt being loaded on young Americans, and the deaths of women and children in the Middle East as a consequence of propping up the massive spending at gunpoint.
Either way, I find it telling that you’ve spent so much time and energy fulminating against my anti-war, anti-Keynesian, limited government, and pro-libertarian, pro-conservationist perspective and arguments…and this on an anti-war, libertarian web site! Don’t you think your emotionalism and juvenile, personal attacks would carry more weight over at Daily Kos?
A. G. Phillbin
June 19th, 2011 at 10:26 am
Juvenile? Juvenile is considering me part of some "racket," and accusing me of "protecting a milk ticket" because I argue with your idiotic behavior. Nor have I argued with any of your "anti-war" views, which we probably hold in common (much to my chagrin). More lack of reading (and thinking) for comprehension on your part. In your, uh, mind, if I argue with any part of your views, I'm arguing with all of them. More Undistributed Middles, and basic ignorance of how reality works. I haven't even argued with your alleged "views" to any great extent. It is your chosen means of expression I argue with, and your rigid personality. But keep on pretending I caused you to act like a jackass, so that you can continue to think it's clever to sound like a right wing wind up doll. The personal attacks are in self defense, and in defense of intelligent discourse. You seem to comprehend nothing else.
A. G. Phillbin
June 19th, 2011 at 10:27 am
Btw, this is NOT an "anti-war, libertarian" website. It is an anti-war website, period. It happens to be run by a self described libertarian, but I've seen the whole spectrum of the anti-war movement here. I know you don't like that, but you need to get used to it.
Tell me: did I touch a nerve?
Chris Moore
June 19th, 2011 at 11:57 am
Not in the least.
You’ve just admitted that you’re “issues” aren’t with the substance of what I say, but rather my aggressive, polemical style — which I make no apologies for, given the epic corruption and evil of those I’m criticizing.
And believe me, the worst I can dish out is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of what this evil deserves and will ultimately get, either in this life or the next.
Keynesian, “liberals” simply don’t want to hear that they’re as corrupt, complicit and evil as the right-wing onto which they disingenuously attempt to cast all the blame.
In some ways, they’re worse, because they paper over their guilt and malice with saccharin-sweet, liberal platitudes, even as they participate and benefit from the murderous Keynesian racket to the same extent as right-wingers.
Just like the Zionists (another infantile, passive-aggressive group of moral defectives) they simply can’t stand to hear the truth about themselves, and so they go into attack mode to short-circuit legitimate criticism and drown out word of their guilt.
Good luck with that.
A. G. Phillbin
June 19th, 2011 at 7:48 pm
"You’ve just admitted that you’re “issues” aren’t with the substance of what I say,"
Actually, more selective reading. I've admitted no such thing. What I said was that i hadn't argued with those views "to any great extent," which isn't quite the same. you're not good at subtlety, like most political dogmatists. Your "polemical style" is directed merely at those who disagree with your rigid dogmatic views, not at those who have actually done anything. If you want to claim that people who disagree with you are doing so because they are part of some "racket," as opposed to honestly disagreeing with you, go right ahead. It will insulate you from ever convincing anyone but yourself. And I maintain that really is the only one you want to convince. And your "polemical style" is, in fact, the heart and soul of your views. The rest is window dressing.
A. G. Phillbin
June 19th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
And you haven't yet told me if you think Ayn Rand was a Keynesian, or thought she was one.
A. G. Phillbin
June 19th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Define Keynesian.
Steve
June 22nd, 2011 at 7:47 am
More than last time, quite a lot more — and that should be the point.
A. G. Phillbin
June 22nd, 2011 at 11:07 pm
I'm familiar with Rand's philosophy, though no expert. It is not Rand's philosophy that is at issue here, but Chris Moore's, or at least his attempt at one. You would need to familiarize yourself with the debates we are having over this particular article to understand why I ask that question, and why he doesn't answer.