Egypt: Battle of the Narratives
Two conspiracy theories debunked
The Egyptian events seem, on
the face of it, fairly straightforward: a tyrant in office
for 30 years, propped up by fulsome US support and a very efficient
secret police apparatus, faces a full-scale revolution by his brutalized
subjects, who are – finally! – enraged-beyond-endurance and
just can’t take it anymore. A million people in the streets of Cairo
are telling us this story, and one would think the wise thing to do
would be to take their word for it.
But that’s hardly sufficient
for some US commentators, who have their own agendas – and their own
narratives to sell. While the number of wacky theories is perhaps equal
to the number of wacky web sites out there – a figure which we cannot
even begin to calculate – there are two major “alternative” narratives
which have taken the lion’s share of the attention, and therefore
deserve debunking.
The first, and most pernicious, is the Muslim Brotherhood conspiracy theory, which holds that this deeply conservative and reified sect, which has been around since 1928, is “really” the driving force behind the movement to overthrow Mubarak. This is the theory being put out there by the Fox News network (Judge Andrew Napolitano of “Freedom Watch” excepted), the neoconservative usual suspects, and the Israel Lobby. Acting as a kind of human bullhorn for these groups, former US ambassador to the UN John Bolton – who looks likely to launch a quixotic presidential bid – had this to say to Fox News:
“I think the question is whether and to what extent the Muslim Brotherhood and radical Islamists have infiltrated the leadership. If the military holds firm it’s entirely possible, although bloody, that the government can hold onto power. That doesn’t necessarily mean Mubarak will be in power, but the military will be, and I think that is why this contrast makes it so important for people to understand, this is not a choice between the Mubarak government on one hand, and sweetness and light, Jeffersonian democracy on the other.
“I don’t think we have evidence yet that these demonstrations are necessarily about democracy. You know the old saying, ‘one person, one vote, one time.’ The Muslim Brotherhood doesn’t care about democracy, if they get into power you’re not going to have free and fair elections either.”
Notice, first, how fact-free this all is: if we don’t “have evidence yet that these demonstrations are necessarily about democracy,” then what is the evidence they are about Islamism? The Brotherhood, as widely noted, came late to the protests, abstaining from participation until the broadness and depth of the movement became apparent. Joel Benin, in his commentary on ForeignPolicy.com, notes:
“As usual, Egypt’s opposition parties were ineffectual. The so-called ‘left’ Tagammu’ Party refused to endorse the demonstrations out of appreciation for the police (January 25 is Police Day in Egypt). The pro-business Wafd Party never announced a clear position. Ghad (Tomorrow) Party leader Ayman Nour, who won seven percent of the vote in the 2005 presidential elections, did support the demonstrations. The physically frail Nour was beaten by police and ended up in the hospital on January 25. His party, however, is split and not particularly popular.
“The Muslim Brotherhood, widely acknowledged as the largest and best organized opposition force in the country, abstained from the January 25 demonstrations, but belatedly endorsed the January 28 demonstrations. Perhaps as a result of this waffling there has been almost no Islamic content to the demonstrations. The tone has mostly been nationalist and secular.”
The old opposition, including the Brotherhood, didn’t initiate the demonstrations, which raises the question: well then, who did?
The April 6 Youth movement, founded by Ahmed Salah and Ahmed Maher, is a tech-savvy group of loosely-associated bloggers and activists who were earlier associated with campaigns to free imprisoned journalists and bloggers, support labor actions, and organize protests over Israel’s invasion of Gaza. Utilizing Facebook, Twitter, and other social media, it was the April 6′ers who initiated the demonstrations that culminated in the “march of millions”: the other opposition groups clambered on board as the movement took off and grew to include virtually every sector of Egyptian society. Its founders and leaders have been continually harassed and many were arrested, and yet they endured and became the catalyzing force for Egypt’s democratic revolution. Neither a political party, nor even an ideological grouping, they are united around the- demands for civil liberties, freedom of speech and association, and the opening up of Egypt’s sclerotic authoritarian system.
The John Boltons of this world imagine these youngsters will soon be pushed aside, along with Mohamed ElBaradei, whose leadership they have coalesced around: Bolton & Co. liken ElBaradei to Kerensky, with the Brotherhood in the role of the Leninists. Yet what is happening in Egypt – and across North Africa and the Middle East – is a lot closer to 1989 than 1917.
The Russian Revolution was a violent paroxysm, in which many lives were lost: in 1989, however, when Lenin’s heirs were finally overthrown, hardly a shot was fired. The huge and practically simultaneous rising against the Stalinist regimes of the Warsaw Pact was remarkably nonviolent: there was no Tiananmen moment, no gunfire – just the eerily hollow sound of a doomed empire imploding. This is precisely what is happening in Egypt today: a massive nonviolent movement for change is defeating a heavily-armed yet apparently impotent State apparatus, in the streets and in the minds of men.
The Brotherhood is a well-established presence in Egypt, which, for a time, the US and its Egyptian sock puppets were allied with during the cold war era, as a bulwark against Nasserite and pro-Soviet socialist groupings. As Robert Dreyfuss points out in his book Devil’s Game:
“In Egypt, Anwar Sadat brought the Muslim Brotherhood back to Egypt. In Syria, the United States, Israel, and Jordan supported the Muslim Brotherhood in a civil war against Syria. And, as described in a groundbreaking chapter in Devil’s Game, Israel quietly backed Ahmed Yassin and the Muslim Brotherhood in the West Bank and Gaza, leading to the establishment of Hamas.”
For all the scaremongering about the Brotherhood by the neoconservative right, the reality is that the group moderated its policies long ago, renouncing violence, running election campaigns, and declaring the compatibility of Islam and democratic civil society: for this they are regularly denounced by al-Qaeda. Even the more intelligent neocons recognize the Brotherhood will inevitably be a part of the democratic mosaic if the Middle East is to be modernized and lured away from real extremism. As Reuel Marc Gerecht puts it in The Islamic Paradox:
“Many Israelis and their American supporters may rise in horror contemplating replacing peace-treaty-signing dictators with fundamentalists who may partly build a democratic consensus on anti-Zionism. But down this uneasy path lies an end to bin Ladenism and the specter of an American city attacked with weapons of mass destruction.”
The Brotherhood will no doubt be a factor in post-Mubarak Egypt, but hardly a decisive one: that role belongs to the rising middle classes and the culture of modernity that has been unleashed by the new technology.
Much more significant than hyped fears of a Brotherhood takeover, however, is the subtext of this fear campaign, which is all about regime change being bad for Israel. A new government, no matter how liberal on the surface, and how US-friendly it may turn out, is bound to be less friendly to Israel, and certainly far less willing to keep the Palestinians penned up in Gaza.
This is true – but so what? The Israelis have long since killed the much-touted “peace process,” and proceeded with their plan to colonize the West Bank. And it’s quite telling that the Palestinian Authority, at the height of the Egyptian events, sent a message of solidarity – to Mubarak! So much for their credibility as legitimate representatives of Arab people.
The Egyptian government, post-Mubarak, is not likely to attack Israel: indeed, the fear is that the Israelis may very well attack Egypt in a preemptive strike. And the Israelis, need I remind you, are armed with nuclear weapons: surely that is the wildest wild card in the Middle East mix, more volatile than anything the Brotherhood has in its arsenal.
This concatenation of events in the Middle East underscores what has been evident for some time: that Israeli and American interests, far from being complementary, are counterposed. The uprising is not a disaster for the US and its legitimate interests – Egypt has many economic and cultural ties to the United States, which are not about to be easily severed – but Israel has good reason to worry.
By supporting Mubarak – indeed, urging other nations to tamp down their criticism of the Egyptian despot – and believing in the myth of his invincibility right up until the last moment, the Israelis have pretty much killed any chance of good relations with the government that emerges. Jordan, too – another collaborator with Tel Aviv – is feeling the effects of the regional revolution, and may yet experience a similar convulsion. That the Israelis made their security dependent on an enduring Arab despotism is a strategic error that will cost them dearly. But whose fault is that?
Harping on the Brotherhood and its secondary role in the Egyptian upsurge is the chief “alternative” narrative now floating about, the last refuge of neocons and Islamophobes who are wedded to their narrow worldview in spite of the facts. There is another narrative, however, another sort of conspiracy theory, which some on the right have embraced, which posits that the United States government, and not the Brotherhood or al-Qaeda, is the real force behind Egypt’s revolutionary wave. And, no, I’m not kidding.
An article that appeared early on in the Telegraph, headlined “America’s Secret Backing for Rebel Leaders Behind Uprising,” appears to be the genesis of this ‘theory.” It starts out by citing a “secret document” that supposedly shows how Washington, inexplicably, decided to create a crisis for itself by undermining Mubarak:
“The American government secretly backed leading figures behind the Egyptian uprising who have been planning ‘regime change’ for the past three years, The Daily Telegraph has learned. The American Embassy in Cairo helped a young dissident attend a US-sponsored summit for activists in New York, while working to keep his identity secret from Egyptian state police.
“On his return to Cairo in December 2008, the activist told US diplomats that an alliance of opposition groups had drawn up a plan to overthrow President Hosni Mubarak and install a democratic government in 2011. The disclosures, contained in previously secret US diplomatic dispatches released by the WikiLeaks website, show American officials pressed the Egyptian government to release other dissidents who had been detained by the police.
“…In a secret diplomatic dispatch, sent on December 30 2008, Margaret Scobey, the US Ambassador to Cairo, recorded that opposition groups had allegedly drawn up secret plans for ‘regime change’ to take place before elections, scheduled for September this year.
“It said the activist claimed ‘several opposition forces’ had ‘agreed to support an unwritten plan for a transition to a parliamentary democracy, involving a weakened presidency and an empowered prime minister and parliament, before the scheduled 2011 presidential elections.’ The embassy’s source said the plan was ‘so sensitive it cannot be written down.’
“Ambassador Scobey questioned whether such an ‘unrealistic’ plot could work, or ever even existed. However, the documents showed that the activist had been approached by US diplomats and received extensive support for his pro-democracy campaign from officials in Washington. The embassy helped the campaigner attend a ‘summit’ for youth activists in New York, which was organised by the US State Department.”
Midway throught the text, we are invited to view the “secret documents” for ourselves – which consist merely of the WikiLeaks cable, copied and pasted onto the Telegraph web site. A thorough examination of the cable reveals, not a US plot, but the complete indifference of the Americans to the plot – indeed, it shows, to an embarrassing degree, just how clueless and out of touch American diplomats and government officials were (and are).
The April 6 activist discussed in the cable – probably Maher – did indeed attend a “youth summit” organized by the US State Department, but about the only thing the US government did was protect his identity while he attended the conference, and lobby Mubarak to let jailed bloggers go, as they have been doing in any case. The cable goes on to report:
“XXXXXXXXXXX
described how he tried to convince his Washington interlocutors that
the USG should pressure the GOE [Government of Egypt] to implement significant
reforms by threatening to reveal information about GOE officials’ alleged
“illegal” off-shore bank accounts. He hoped that the
U.S. and the international community would freeze these bank accounts,
like the accounts of Zimbabwean President Mugabe’s confidantes.
XXXXXXXXXXXX said he wants to convince the USG that Mubarak is worse
than Mugabe and that the GOE will never accept democratic reform. XXXXXXXXXXXX
asserted that Mubarak derives his legitimacy from U.S. support, and
therefore charged the U.S. with ‘being responsible’ for Mubarak’s ‘crimes.’ He accused NGOs working on political and economic
reform of living in a ‘fantasy world,’ and not recognizing
that Mubarak – ‘the head of the snake’ – must step aside to enable
democracy to take root.”
One can’t imagine that any
of this sat very well with our placid and oh-so-proper diplomats, and
indeed it did not. In a comment appended to the report of the interview,
the State Department is advised by our Ambassador:
“XXXXXXXXXXXX offered
no roadmap of concrete steps toward April 6′s highly unrealistic goal
of replacing the current regime with a parliamentary democracy prior
to the 2011 presidential elections. Most opposition parties and
independent NGOs work toward achieving tangible, incremental reform
within the current political context, even if they may be pessimistic
about their chances of success. XXXXXXXXXXXX’s wholesale rejection
of such an approach places him outside the mainstream of opposition
politicians and activists.”
In other words, they told him:
Get lost, kid, and come back when you grow up and learn to live
with despotism. Fortunately, he didn’t listen.
From from showing that the
Egyptian uprising is a CIA plot to get rid of a longtime client, the
cable shows the complete incompetence and moral blindness of the Obama
administration and the US diplomatic corps in general. Meeting with
a few members of Congress and their staffs, and attending a couple of
think-tank seminars, does not quite constitute a secret plot. From the
looks of things, it doesn’t seem like the Americans even put up his
airfare for the “youth summit,” because he complains that due to
lack of funds he won’t be able to attend the next one. Nor does the
cable mention that US diplomats approached or sought out members of
the April 6 movement in any way: instead, they were considered marginal
boat-rockers, bound to come to a bad end.
Disabused of any notion that
the US government is a force for good in the world, the young
activist returned to Egypt and helped organize an “unrealistic”
movement that is now on the verge of a resounding victory – and the
US is caught completely flat-footed. Some US “plot”!
What these two seemingly contradictory
narratives have in common is that they both assign the Egyptian people
to, at best, a supporting role in the events now unfolding before our
eyes. The neocons tells us that the Brotherhood is the secret manipulator
pulling the strings behind the scenes, while others insist the long
arm of the US State Department (and, presumably, the CIA) is the hidden
hand behind Mubarak’s ouster. Both “theories” are nonsense.
What we are seeing in Egypt
is not the result of the machinations of shadowy groups, either state
actors or sinister jihadists: it is the explosion created by the pent
up energy and anger of an entire generation of Egyptians who see how
a (relatively) free society in the West lives and works, and wants the
same for their long-suffering nation. Like the East Germans, the Russians,
and all the citizens of the “captive nations” in the old Soviet
bloc, the Egyptians are rising against the complacency and Stockholm
Syndrome that was eating away at the very heart of their society and
destroying their souls.
Is that really so hard to understand?
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- BS in Baghdad – May 24th, 2012
- Interventionism and the Elites – May 22nd, 2012
- Obama or Anarchy? – May 20th, 2012
- What Does Ron Paul Want? – May 17th, 2012
- Hillary’s Terrorists – May 15th, 2012





Johnny in Wi.
February 1st, 2011 at 11:37 pm
Another excellent column Justin: I agree with you that an attack by Israel is a possiblity. I have been reading some neocon and Israeli webbsites and they seem to be flumoxed. It is isn't beyond the realm of possiblity that the radicals in the Israeli governmet will do a preemtive strike. In fact I rather fear it. The stategic position of Israel is declining at a rapid rate. I don't think they will take it lying down.
sherban
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:04 am
Raimondo said:"it is the explosion created by the pent up energy and anger of an entire generation of Egyptians who see how a (relatively) free society in the West lives and works, and wants the same for their long-suffering nation. Like the East Germans, the Russians, and all the citizens of the “captive nations” in the old Soviet bloc, the Egyptians are rising against the complacency and Stockholm Syndrome that was eating away at the very heart of their society and destroying their souls."
In my opinion Raimondo is wrong.The propaganda of the "free world"won the cold war.People who lived there saw the West not as a palce where is a RELATIVE" freedom ,but they believed that was an absolute freedom.The majority understand the mistake,polls in East Germany,Romania,Cehia,shown it.
About the peril of "jihadism".It is so strange that the critiques come from US where are 70 millions Christian fundamentalism (according with Gary Leupp) or Israel which what she wants more than everything else is to be recognized as a Jewish state and where they say that was invented a new democracy:a Jewish democracy.
jackbootstate
February 2nd, 2011 at 3:20 am
"Yet what is happening in Egypt – and across North Africa and the Middle East – is a lot closer to 1989 than 1917.
The Russian Revolution was a violent paroxysm, in which many lives were lost: in 1989, however, when Lenin’s heirs were finally overthrown, hardly a shot was fired."
There was plenty of violence following 1989. Justin seems to forget that Yeltsin went way beyond anything Mubarak did in 1993, actually ordering a military assault against the elected government of Russia. Then there is the violence throughout Eastern Europe most Americans don't count as violence. That would be the violence of completely dismantling all public support systems for the population in Eastern Europe. The dismantling of the Soviet economy the way it was done led to the deaths of millions, with Russian life expectancy taking a very noticeable nosedive. If anything like this had happened with a Communist Party in charge, we'd never hear the end of it. But this was done in the name of making millions for foreign investors, so nobody raises a bleat about it.
Yes, it's not surprising that there are a few philistines out there bringing up the specter of an Islamic fundamentalist regime emerging in Cairo, in an attempt to provide emergency CPR to Mubarak's stricken regime. But Saudi Arabia is arguably the most fundamentalist regime in the world, and it doesn't bother Washington one bit that is continues to back this awful monarchy. Washington policy makers don't care if the people of Muslim countries live under a dictatorship, whether it is of the Praetorian type in Egypt, or a fundamentalist Monarchy in Saudi Arabia. They want governments that are obedient to Washington. They could care less if a fruit seller somewhere in the Arab world won't have his grievances with the local police heard by corrupt city officials.
GradyWilson
February 2nd, 2011 at 4:56 am
Seems like this Egyptian revolution has brought out the best in Mr. Raimondo. Another powerful column. I heard nowhere else that the Palestinian Authority leadership endorsed Mubarak – exposing again their complicity with the US/Israel. Important info.
And Justin's comment – "that the Israelis made their security dependent on an enduring Arab despotism is a strategic error that will cost them dearly. But whose fault is that?" is a very inconvenient fact speaking truth to power.
The mainstream debate (from Ed Shultz to Sean Hannity) is pathetically all about; 'what should "we" do with Egypt? Can we really allow the Muslims self determination and liberty?' How arrogant, condescending, racist, imperialistic, etc. this attitude is! Let the Egyptians sink or swim on their own. Its not "ours"!
And great comment about how Soviet leaders realized their empire was falling apart (and that they were on the wrong side of morality and history) and allowed the empire to crumble without great bloodshed. Will the leaders of the US capitalist empire be as honorable as the commies as their empire crumbles? Good question. I think we all know the answer though.
mark
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:06 am
According to Winston Churchill the Russian revolution was a battle between Bolshovik Jews and zionist jews, and he would have known.
However, Israel will probably use this pretext to move into the Sinai at least. The BBC is already preparing the way by informing its viewer that the Sinai once belonged to Israel and the threat posed to the peace loving Israelis by any political change in Egypt.
If they were to move into the Sinai it would enable them to increase its stranglehold on Gaza, thus speeding its demise and making all that wonderful beachfront real estate available and also give them access to the natural gas deposits of Gaza, which they have made impossible for Palestinians to rightfully utilize.
Moving into the Sinai would also give Israel access to water resources. At present 80% of their freshwater comes from land illegally occupied, and even with that amount the UN recognises that Israel has 50% the amount needed per capita for an industrialized country.
liveload
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:18 am
It's not up to one old man, two old men, or twenty to decide who leads, who lives, who dies and what direction an entire nation should take. That comes from the people themselves; in the exchange of information, collaboration, and finding common ground…speaking with one voice. This is what social networking, the internet, is doing for these nations whose populace is being kept under an artificially propped-up thumb. Entire nations are becoming self-aware. This is 2011. The time of Dictators, Theocracies, Monarchies, and Apartheid has long passed. Let this decade be the twilight of the Authoritarian regime. You cannot silence an entire nation. You cannot continue to dictate the terms of a few crusty old men upon the millions. This should be a golden age for our species. This should be a time of flourishing culture, music, art, literature, cuisine, philosophy, and ideas. Egypt is showing us: "This is how you do it. This is how you, as a nation, become self-aware and take back what is yours…all of you"
Johnny in Wi.
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:27 am
Grady good comments: I see on TV right now that the Egyptian police are back on the street along with other thugs paid for by the regime. Orders must have come from Tel Aviv to put it down no matter what. I see a military coup with the elites putting some other general in charge. That is the way it has been for decades. No way are the USA and Israel going to let Egypt get away. Mubarek will fly away to his place on the Rivera and the crooks will continue to run Egypt into the ground.
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:27 am
Mubarak will survive. Even now the army is backing him, and his supporters are clogging the streets. Raimondo is getting as excitable as Andrew Sullivan over these "democracy" movements (basically unemployed students milling about in town squares chanting hey, hey, LBJ, how many…wait must be Justin's '60s flashbacks taking over).
Let's keep some perspective on this issue: less than one-third of one percent of the populace marched in the streets when the call went out for millions. it is one thing to demand the end of a regime it is entirely something else to actually do the governing.
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:40 am
do you see any irony in the fact that the "unemployed egyptian students" are using facebook to organize, given the fact that shimon peres endorsed facebook "to fight antisemitism", and then, more-or-less overnight, facebook acquires 600 million customers and zuckerberg, facebook's founder, becomes time's "man of the year"?
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:42 am
So 20,000 kids march in the streets and suddenly it is a "golden age", geez man what are you smoking. Which one of these nascent democratic movements in the last ten years has had sustained success? Are you going to move to Kyrgyzstan because it is now a democratic paradise, or has it backslid into more authoritarianism? Mubarak's not going anywhere any time soon.
John M. Morgan
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:03 am
Excellent article.
liveload
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:05 am
*golf clap*
Nice minimization there. Way to reduce the voice of millions of people crying out in unison for democracy. Lets just all forget the whole thing and go back to one guy at the top trying to silence and crush tens of millions so you can have your cheap oil and "stability"; so the Israeli government wont have its feel goods hurt.
Don't you get it? The staus quo is unsustainable. You cannot silence an entire nation. Whether they all agree or not going forward is irrelevant. The fact that they would then have the RIGHT to discuss issues and decide for themselves freely is all that matters. If they screw up, it's their job to fix it. The point is they will have a CHOICE and a responsibility going forward.
For the record I'm not moving anywhere because the problems of those countries are the problems their citizens must resolve, without our intervention. We have problems of our own here, this is my country. This is where I make my stand.
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:22 am
How is the number "millions". Who counted them…you? The only numbers I saw repeated were tens of thousands; only ten thousand at "ground zero" Tahrir Square. I am sure all the shopkeepers and bazaar merchants who have families to feed and whose main source of income (tourism) was dried up by the protests were thrilled by them. 85 million people live in Egypt, and you are sure all of them want Mubarak gone?
Again I ask this question how easy have these democratic movements found governing? How many are still sustained today? Who is in power in the Ukraine, Lebanon, Tunisia? It is find and dandy to dance around and say "end the government now" but then they walk away when it gets tough., and it's right back to…the status quo.
abiman
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:27 am
Last night on CNN ( P Morgan's show) Tony Blair let the cat out by asserting that the journey to democracy as it evolving in Egypt need to be managed by the West. He seems visibly disturbed and worried .
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:31 am
Whether a bad idea or not Israel exists now. In hindsight Israel probably should not have been created, but what can be done about it now? I agree that the Holocaust should not be exploited by any of the groups targeted by the Nazis, that sort of guilt is tiresome.
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:33 am
the people in power in ukraine, lebanon and tunisia are evidence of the neocons' failing.
…which explains why many neocons have reverted to loot mode… but the PNAC plan was so off-the-wall in the first place, you'd have to be some kind of religious lunatic to believe in it…
most of the instigators of the project, at PNAC/AEI/exxon, most likely intended from the start to use their "project", including their supposed "zionism", as cover for the grandest looting operation ever.
Raashid
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:35 am
It won't be long before elements of the Zionist/Neo-Con press starts calling the Egyptian demonstrators "Islamist terrorists" and praise the Egyptian Security Services for not appeasing them when they massacre them. One can even imagine the Fox News crowd quipping about how the US could learn a t hing or two from Arab Security services about dealing with their own domestic islamist problem.
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:36 am
what can be done about israel?
the israelis have a plan, called the samson option, that, when implemented, will serve as an enduring monument to the stupidity of zionism, and may also destroy jewishness.
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:36 am
Just wondering how many conspiracy theories you believe in. Are they all grouped under "Zionism and ZOG" or do you branch out into aliens and mole men too.
liveload
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:36 am
Again with the minimization. It is the hallmark of abusers everywhere.
If you can fit millions into Tahrir square, you go right ahead. If you want to count heads all across the streets, blogs, and websites of Egypt, you go right ahead. You want to tell these people that they will fail, they don't have the courage or the stamina to see this thing through because other attempts haven't turned out to Jame's liking?
Let me guess, the Arabs aren't ready for democracy. They don't deserve it because other attempts haven't been to Jame's liking. Too bad Egypt, go home. James doesn't think you can do it.
*yawn*
Any more arrogant and you'd be too busy sucking your own d*ck to do anything else.
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:48 am
"Any more arrogant and you'd be too busy sucking your own d*ck to do anything else."
"Again with the minimization. It is the hallmark of abusers everywhere. "
Ah yes name calling: the last refuge of the poor debater.
"If you can fit millions into Tahrir square, you go right ahead. If you want to count heads all across the streets, blogs, and websites of Egypt, you go right ahead. You want to tell these people that they will fail, they don't have the courage or the stamina to see this thing through because other attempts haven't turned out to Jame's liking? "
You made an assertion (millions or the whole nation is rising up) that was/is incorrect, and I called you on it. I'm sorry you don't like it, but next time don't make such broad, sweeping, statements..
"Let me guess, the Arabs aren't ready for democracy. They don't deserve it because other attempts haven't been to Jame's liking. Too bad Egypt, go home. James doesn't think you can do it. '
They haven't shown it in any way that they (Arabs) can sustain democratic institutions. Democracy takes decades of good governance to build institutions. There are only a handful of viably, functioning full democracies in the world and they got there after a long time. If you can define (really define) democracy for me then maybe we can have a civil discussion about its viability in the Arab world. Here's a hint it is a lot more than protesting in the streets or even holding an election or two.
liveload
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:54 am
The thin veil has come off and you have exposed yourself fully and without doubt.
You are one of those racist pigs who thinks "Arabs aren't ready for democracy".
"In the Arab world"…seriously what world do you think you live in? Kinda hard to see through those little eye holes in your bedsheets, isn't it?
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:57 am
Man more insults, any argument there? Would you prefer if I said Middle East.? How many democracies there? One, but it's Israel so I guess it doesn't count eh…
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:58 am
I am calling it like I see it, and see how quickly you revert back to the Zionist conspiracy theories?
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:59 am
What are you rambling on about?
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 8:03 am
It's interesting here having a "debate" if it can be called that, with a "Zionists are evil" theorist and a "one world live in harmony/democracy" advocate simultaneously…on an antiwar site…crazy.
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 8:07 am
Again my pessimism directed at the plausibility of Egyptian democracy taking root due to the history of the region doesn't have anything to do with Israel. It is curious that that is the only place you go to in this debate. I could say I have an offensive realist foreign policy paradigm and consider Walt and Mearshimer to be my intellectual models (and I am sure that you know what book they wrote) but it probably wouldn't register with you.
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 8:10 am
I still have no idea what you are talking about.
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 8:17 am
no amount of tapdancing will disguise the fact that there's a long history of "zionist conspiracy theories" published by supposed zionists… wolfowitz, perle, kristol…
and dont forget that buddy of perle's, Murawiec, who maintains that "egypt is the prize".
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=egypt+th…
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 8:22 am
Sorry I don't care about Zionism or Israel. Bully for you if you do. I am all for cutting Israel loose (a long time ago) from US foreign aid…ditto for Egypt. But you can peddle what you want though it would help you to broaden your perspective a little bit….not everything is related to Israel.
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 8:24 am
liveload…anything else you got? Come on I thought you'd at least call me a Nazi…what no fascist jokes?
If you are still interested in a serious debate., put aside the name-calling, and check your emotions over this issue and we can get down to brass tacks.
Bob D
February 2nd, 2011 at 8:45 am
Interesting how James falsely defends Zionism with pragmatism. He says in effect they're here so accept their position, right or wrong. Truely a fatuous argument. Admittedly a necessary position for an American politician to take if he doesn't want to end up in persecuted position of a David Duke. But James is a blogger here, not a politician. Lets have some honesty. Here we can all see through his phony civility.
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 8:55 am
this song is dedicated to…
frank zappa
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 8:56 am
Truth is I think US should ditch Israel, at least stop giving it so much aid…but I don't think Israel should cease to exist. It has a right to exist, and Israeli nationalism is a part of having Israel as a nation-state, just like say American nationalism is a part of having America as a nation-state. Should Israel allow a free and viable Palestine to become a state? Yes. But that Palestine state should also recognize Israel's right to exist.
GradyWilson
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:00 am
You are right on with this. Not hard to believe considering that peaceful domestic protesters here in the US are targeted, spied on and worse by the state in the name of anti-terrorism. Just a few examples;
-Sept 2008, activists in Minneapolis/St. Paul preparing peaceful protests against the GOP’s National Convention are pre-emptively arrested by the FBI and charged as terrorists.
- June 2009, the DoD is caught red-handed instructing all of its personnel that any legal, non-violent protests are “low-level terrorism.”
- April 2010 the NY Times and Washington Post report that Obama has ordered the assassination of US citizens he considers terrorists.
- Sept 2010 the FBI raids several homes and two offices of anti-war activists in Minneapolis/St. Paul, Chicago and N. Carolina, looking for evidence that these individuals have “lent material support to terrorists.”
- Dec 2010 VP Joe Biden on Meet the Press calls Wikileaks founder Julian Assange a “high tech terrorist
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:02 am
what right did europeans have to move to palestine and terrorize the natives from their homes and land?
bozh
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:03 am
those who rule symbols and values that they represent, such as money, inequality, gods, will rule u and no amount of revolution wld ever change that.
u change symbolic value, say, of being rich or very rich, only via an enlightenment. one teaches, then, children in school to cherish a symbolic value of being interdependent and equal in most aspects of daily living with any other child regardless of its actual or imagined shortcomings.
symbolic value of labels such as god, prez, senator, judge, professor ought not ever be imposed by an overclass of people.
such people must first be divested of their hubris and supremacism. no revolution can do that–only relentless education over decades or centuries [hopefully earlier] cld accomplish that.
if that is not gonna do, it wld have been caused by supremacistic people by variety methods– the best being, by miseducation imposed on children and thus obtaining lifelong serfs and meat for wars. tnx
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:07 am
Two wrongs don't make a right. You cannot undo what was done. What you are advocating, as policy,-the removal of Israelis from Israel, which the negation of Israel as a state would demand-is tantamount to ethnic cleansing…on antiwar.com no less
Justin Raimondo
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:10 am
You're an idiot if you don't recognize that our $1.5 billion a year in "aid" to Mubarak is propping up the regime and needs to be withdrawn. Quite obviously the people of Egypt don't want Mubarak — and there you sit, in your parents' basement, declaring that they aren't "ready." Smug, complacent, privileged, and immune from any of the consequences of your views. A typical spoiled American brat who's had everything handed to him and takes it all for granted.
And comparing me to Andrew Sullivan — now THAT's an insult. In reality, you'll see that I did not support the US-sponsored-and-paid for "revolutions," like the "Orange" uprising and others. Do some research, then open your mouth.
bozh
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:12 am
communist revolution failed because of the fact that communists had no time to reeducate fiercely independent peasants and pious people.
the military threat by supremacists everywhere, and actual warfare against them, positioning missiles on SU borders, eventually caused the end of teaching people not to behave in an independent or mia cosa ways.
supremacists call this "end of history". they mean, of course, end of a threat to personal, ethnic, religious supremacism. tnx
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:22 am
Come on Justin have some manners. I have been a longtime reader of yours, and for the record (and you can check my IP address if you have that capability) I live far, far, from the US and my parents-who (if you had bothered to read my other post were slated to go to Egypt this month and could have been caught in the middle of this).
I know you didn't support the other revolutions so I am just curious why you chose to do so with this one…because it is a pro-American regime being outed instead of being installed…you are truly predictable. Just an FYI: I have been all over the world Justin-East Berlin, Egypt, China, and interacted with people from all different races and religions. When was the last time you left your snug little corner of the world in San Fran? Not just to visit but to live somewhere.
We will see about Mubarak but you seem to have bought the whole mainstream media narrative "democracy yeah" "Mubarak boo". You used to have an edge to you, now you aren't unique. I'll leave your site…got kind of tired of all the fundraising B.S. anyway.
bozh
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:26 am
listen kids!! don't ask if egyptians r ready for any democracy– ask them if they r ready for a timocracy?
and i say, yes, they r. but wld not be given one; not w.o. a ferocious fight by supremacists and democrats! elementary. also spricht bozhidarevski, a peasant who finished last in his class! tnx
Campbell
February 2nd, 2011 at 10:14 am
Your'e absolutely right – well done and thanks for the article. Anyone with any intelligence and any capacity to recall events has know "smear it with the Brotherhood" narrative has been on it's way right from the start. We must nobly uphold our duty and oppress them so that freedom may be preserved in the world!
ssulrich
February 2nd, 2011 at 10:55 am
Justin overlook one important fact – Mubark was known to be terminally ill. the US had no choice but to look for a replacement. The US has always tried to coopt opposition. Kind of hard to ignore the reception given to the "opposition" by the US. http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=66&… (emphasis added).
conumishu
February 2nd, 2011 at 11:01 am
Let's not forget that whatever happens in the next days, weeks or months, Egypt will face formidable struggles ahead. Be it the luckiest outcome, their problems will still exist tomorrow and insatisfaction can always be fueled and exploited. Also, big numbers is a two edge sword, you need to feed all the mouthes. (Haven't you noticed Strauss-Kahn's strange declaration-warning-threat the other day?)
Finest democracy in the world or strictest authoritarian regime, Egypt's rivals could welcome any economic setback, frustration, impatience and take advantage. Much easier to subvert than to build. In the long run, Israel may lose all symbolic perks, but will keep having a relative economic stability (even without open or covert US help, jewish diaspora is the richest and most influential in many of the important western countries and they won't let their brethren down). Unless arabs find a way to stick together where it matters (petrodollars invested all around arab states rings a bell?) they'll always be more vulnerable.
Sam
February 2nd, 2011 at 11:05 am
The young arab generation wants to be part of the modern world and should be supported. Besides there must be some insane asylums in the US. John Bolton with his mustache andbig mouth is a danger to the public and should be put into one of them.
Generalissimo X
February 2nd, 2011 at 11:42 am
nice justin. i was going to comment on the u.s. gov't and israel propping up mubarek but saw you took the liberty to clarify this. seriously james, you need to understand the dynamics of the "creation" of arab nations states since the early 1900's…self determination has rarely if ever been allowed to run its course. obviously their culture is much different for a lot of reasons but to suggest people everywhere don't want basic liberty and a measure of self autonomy is just flat wrong.
Generalissimo X
February 2nd, 2011 at 11:53 am
i don't know how this is all gonna work out but i hope the people of egypt take their country back and don't allow another western puppet(i.e. globalist banker) to take control of their country. baradei is precisely this…a globalist schill and not a sincere representative of the nascent movement presently occuring in egypt.
i'd like to see them play hardball, run mubarek out on a rail or give him the mussolini treatment in tahir square. close the suez down and cut off the oil and natural gas going to israel. take control of their resources and make sure the citizens receive the spoils of their country's wealth rather than a totalitarian oligarch pig like mubarek. regardless of who's in charge, they need to stop speaking about "democracy" and start drafting a formal constitution (to their liking) to ensure that their new state is subject to the rule of law. a republic is the only way to go.
abiman
February 2nd, 2011 at 12:05 pm
You can be at the scene.I am aware of the narrative of the embedded reporters from Iraq and Afghanistan. Some armchair warhawks like Cheny and Liberman manage to stay at home with all kind of excuses and twisting of the laws but egg on more wars .Some never leave their ivory towers but exhort people to join them in their ivory towers. I will go for the later.
ML3
February 2nd, 2011 at 12:23 pm
So a dictator is good, democracy bad?
And you don't want to live under a dictatorship, do you?
Maybe you can if you really tried…of course you'd have to be at the top of the food chain in that dictatorship (maybe that means under the dictator's desk) otherwise you might…GASP…complain about basic human rights and dignity like those uppity brown people in Egypt are
Chas
February 2nd, 2011 at 1:08 pm
"…Middle East…democracies…Israel…"
One ought to include the former Rhodesia and South Africa in that same bag of Israel-style democracies.
Chas
February 2nd, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Some wrongs are more wrong than other wrongs.
If Israel is to remain on stolen lands, it must compensate those it dispossessed. Nothing new here. Just using the ample compensation model the Jews were given after WW2 as precedent
Terrance&Philip
February 2nd, 2011 at 1:41 pm
Of course what's happening in Egypt (and Yemen and Jordan and Tunisia) is a lot more like 1989 than 1917. With the internet, twitter and facebook and hundreds of TV channels to choose from, Egyptians are apprised of world events and how other people live and so will want reform, the oppurtunity to do things differently and to live in an Egypt in which they have poltical and economic participation. It's become impossible for a country's leaders to ultimately keep truth from its citizens.
The soviets weren't fools when they worked so mightily to keep their citizens cut off from news and reportage from abroad and outside the acceptable party line, something, in fact, which our own society with communication in the hands of fewer and fewer is now trying to do.
Terrance&Philip
February 2nd, 2011 at 1:47 pm
"They haven't shown it in any way that they (Arabs) can sustain democratic institutions. Democracy takes decades of good governance to build institutions."
Well then, James, it's best then if we and the Israelis get out of the way and let them get on with it. It took us in the English speaking world hundreds of years to get a viable democratic republic going (and the apartheid state of Israel will never be anywhere near any sort of real democracy), so maybe we'd better let the Arabs get on with the job of learning democracy, hadn't we?
Terrance&Philip
February 2nd, 2011 at 1:52 pm
If we had a time machine we could have whisked Mr. Blair back to William McKinley in the Oval Office, where they could have shared an amiable cup of tea and concurred how we in the West had a duty to take care of our "little brown brothers."
Fie on Mr. Blair.
Terrance&Philip
February 2nd, 2011 at 1:56 pm
"John Bolton with his mustache andbig mouth is a danger to the public and should be put into one of them."
Not to be smarmy, but with that moustache he does look as if he just walked off the set of a 1970's porno.
keithISGREAT
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:21 pm
It's not a possibility it is an inevitability. I hate Israel with a passion like I assume most readers here do, but I am a realist. Justin touches on a VERY important point, that you can have the most moderate liberal government in the world in Egypt but if it is critical of Israel or Israel doesn't like the government there, it will be labeled as an extremist government. Look at hamas. Is Hamas bad? NO! Is Hezbollah bad? No! If you like Apartheid then they are bad. If you like Occupation of land that isn't yours they are bad. But if you are on the right side of history they are good.
I am a realist and one thing that must be made clear is that from the Israeli perspective, they see, hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in the occupied territories, Turkey being Islamist (which isn't a bad thing at all as an American), and now a government in Egypt that will for sure be anti-israel which the Israelis will relay to the US as being terrorist/islamist blah blah blah. So knowing that Israel is a pre-emptive strike kinda regime and now being threatened more now than ever before, you will see a major war in the mid-east that Israel will be behind. These bastards are gonna attack lebanon, jordan, egypt, Iran, syria starting a huge war. WW3!
Israel is the LAST dictatorship to implode. My intelligence tells me that they will not go into the light peacefully. Quite the opposite. It would be nice if what happens in Israel happens in sudan or tunisia but I know better. They're not gonna allow a referendum into the country letting the people living their decide the government. They will spin that as meaning israel will be destroyed blah blah blah. The facts on the ground when it comes to settlement expansion rhetoric uprisings etc. make war inevitable.
Israel will not fade into that great night or whatever the expression is.
jack
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:25 pm
"neo" synnaounamous with killing it "like democracy" before it is born,,,patent pendingt,action figures sold out zionistically
keithISGREAT
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:28 pm
lebanon is doing just fine. They have a hezbollah government in place that will cause the bandit state of Israel to start a war with them very soon. You have a very anti-american tone with your rhetoric. Iran in '79 is egypt in '11. Except it is not certain that the egyptians will get violent or a religious element will be in the new democracy.
keithISGREAT
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:31 pm
You totally ignore the fact that these pro-mubarak supporters are government sanctioned lynch mobs. The army is not backing Mubarak. I bet you were all for that fake CIA revolution in Iran a few years ago weren't you?
keithISGREAT
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:33 pm
Mubarak will not make it to friday. He will follow the shah.
jeff_davis
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:40 pm
If the original and ongoing theft of Palestine and the original and ongoing murder and dispossession of its people, is a "wrong", then holding the criminals responsible, bringing them to justice, and restoring what was stolen to its rightful owners is not a second "wrong", but rather the broadly accepted standard of ethical conduct known as "the rule of law".
When something unlawful has been done, you most certainly CAN "undo" it. You do this by "looking backward". Civilization itself is founded on this principle. It is why we have laws dating back to Nebuchadnezzar, and why people EVERYWHERE hold the law to be an essential feature of civil society.
The world of human beings is flawed. One glaring deficit being that the wealthy and powerful remain largely above the law. They are still able to find refuge in the criminal ethos of "look forward, not back".
jeff_davis
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:53 pm
"…I don't think Israel should cease to exist. It has a right to exist. …"
No, it does not.
We often hear the phrase "Israel's right to exist" and along with it, "Israel's right to self-defense." Hear them endlessly, by propagandists who repeat them endlessly. But endless repetition does not make a thing true. And the "legitimacy" that arises from endless repetition is not legitimacy at all, but rather the boilerplate bullshit of well executed propaganda.
Yet the truth exists.
And here it is: a fact-based, truth-based, ethics-based point of view.
In 1917, the British Imperial elite and the World Zionist Organization colluded in a criminal conspiracy to steal Palestine from the people — 95% Arab — who had lived there for 70 generations, and to give it to the Jews/Zionists. That's ***STEAL***, as in take what doesn't belong to you. This "plan" was a crime then, as it is a crime now. A crime is still a crime, despite control and censorship of the media. A crime is still a crime despite 90 years of impunity from prosecution or 90 years of propaganda. NO AMOUNT OF TIME CAN CHANGE A LIE INTO THE TRUTH; NO AMOUNT TIME CAN CONVERT A CRIME INTO A LEGAL ACT.
The Zionist entity called Israel is nothing less than a geopolitical crime-in-progress. This is reality.
So when next you hear about Israel's "right to exist", consider: what crime has a "right to exist"?, what criminal enterprise has a "right to exist"? Add to that: what criminal has a "right to self-defense"? What criminal has the right to commit violence in the furtherance of a crime? What criminal has the right to fight back against the lawful authority that arrives to halt the crime and arrest the criminals?
Israel, the Zionists, their enablers, and their supporters are criminals: thieves and murderers on a global scale. They have no "right to exist" (as criminals) and they have no "right to self-defense" as they commit their crimes.
But they do have rights. They have the right to surrender to a competent authority (which is to say surrender and not suffer summary execution). They have the right to a fair trial. If found guilty, the right to a proportionate penalty. And once the offending parties have "done their time", the right to rejoin society and resume a peaceful cooperative existence.
Ground_Control
February 2nd, 2011 at 5:27 pm
Right on!
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:53 pm
All I am saying is don't be surprised if "democracy" doesn't take hold in Egypt.
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:55 pm
The army isn't telling him to go either by default they back the status quo. It is possible those pro-Mubarak forces are what is the parlance "paid thugs", but it is also possible that after 30 years of rule, while Mubarak has made enemies he also may have made a few allies among the general populace.
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:54 pm
i guess the problem is economic… if everybody agreed on the truth, think of how many thousands of websites and pundits and experts would be put out of business… and nevermind that truth would kill some of our favorite hogs.
the truth you might be runnin' from is so small… but it's big as the promise, the promise of a coming day.
meanwhile, paul simon sings about homelessness, no doubt thinking of palestinians bulldozed into homelessness.
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:59 pm
…as gordon lightfoot writes a song about the empire
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 10:03 pm
too bad the truth is well on it's way to becoming undeniable.
James
February 2nd, 2011 at 10:33 pm
You guys are coming out of the woodwork. Yes Israel has a right to exist because their mandate was backed by the United Nations in the Partition Plan, under international law Israel exists as a sovereign state, Jefferson Davis, that is an apt name for you.
wadosy
February 2nd, 2011 at 10:41 pm
"might makes right", and "two wrongs make a right", as per jabotinsky.
so how is israel gonna survive once america implodes?
BINSAFI
February 3rd, 2011 at 12:42 am
If I were Justin, I Wouldn't Waste my Breath talking about FOX!
As far as Egypt is concerened, this RAGE has been building up for a few Millennia now!!
This is a Magnificent Moment in History that we are witnessing, it's FAR BIGGER than the CIA , the State Department, or even the White House. They have ALL been Reduced & Relegated (just like the rest of US) to Observers & Watchers on the Sidelines!!!
These Ancient Proud Egyptians, have put the rest of US to Shame with their DEFIANCE. After the Brave Stand they've taken in Tahrir / Liberation Square, NOTHING can go back to how it was. This Rebellion, is Contagious & Infectious to the Global Shytsem/System. The Staus-quo-ante, is NO Longer Acceptable!!!!
More Power to the People of Egypt & the World.
Peace, Love & Respect.
james
February 3rd, 2011 at 1:05 am
Sorry Kieth, that comment was a reply to James down not you.
james
February 3rd, 2011 at 1:21 am
Wow, right on Jeff. Simple, factual and to the point. I wonder how the Israeli firsters can spin this? By the way, I am the normal JAMES not the Mubarak defending Asswipe.
james
February 3rd, 2011 at 1:23 am
Do you watch those often?
Wolfgang9
February 3rd, 2011 at 4:55 am
Mubarak (and maybe even his sons) will end like Ceaucescu In December 1989 and you know why, as Sybil would say, "he is worth it". You never had a real revolution in the US,
but we had in Europe, and we have an instinct for who is trying to screw us, and obviously
some of the more educated and liberal thinking Moslem people do no longer accept dictatorship.
Wolfgang9
February 3rd, 2011 at 4:59 am
Obviously you didn't lear anything from your traveling.
Just read the German newspapers when you are able to do so, and you will find out how much damage these uprisings do to the governments in Washington DC and Tel Aviiv!
Your could also read the French or Spanish newspapers, if you are able.
Get used to the change, 'cause you wont stop it!
Terrance&Philip
February 3rd, 2011 at 10:25 am
Not very often but your mother always does put in a great performance.
Roger
February 3rd, 2011 at 11:07 pm
Hamas is horrible, look at the captivity of Schalitt.
Hizbullah is a bunch of murdering thugs. The UN indictment in the murder of the old PM is proof of that. They do anything they want and Iran foots the bill.
Neither one affords women human rights and politicial prisoners are as good as dead. That's not good, and I'm surprised you tried to say so.
James
February 7th, 2011 at 4:04 am
Not defending Mubarak just putting things in perspective, and yeah it turns out I was correct, he's not going anywhere. As for "Israeli firster" there's a huge difference between saying that a nation-state has the legal right to exist under international law (hint look up the definition of state under the Montevideo Convention) and saying US foreign policy should be tied completely to another country.
Roger
February 7th, 2011 at 6:17 am
It is now beyond Friday and Mubarek is still in charge at least nominally.
Are you going to admit you're wrong… again?
newhon63
February 9th, 2011 at 9:02 am
Wow.
You say that none of the terrorist organizations are bad? Dang. I guess you also think that the planes crashing into The Twin Towers and the Pentagon was a conspiracy orchestrated by the US and Israel. Israel is surronded by enemies who are all Arabs. I would be doing the exact same thing they do. You hit me, I will hit you 3 times as hard. Israel can't afford to play games with anyone. You assume incorrectly if you think most the people here hate Israel as you do. I think you hate them more than anyone on the planet.
Care to tell us exactly why you hate them or are you one of the Radical Islamics that want to see the whole free world be crushed under Islamic rule and Sharia Law because the Quar'an tells you to.
newhon63
February 9th, 2011 at 9:14 am
From what I see the only reason why we have any relationship with Saudi Arabia is oil, oil, oil.
They don't have anything else that is of interest to us. But apparently that is plenty. Whenever The Saudi King or a Prince comes to America, Our officials bend a knee before them, hide all our female employees, basically lock their lips onto his butt for the duration of their stay.
We observe every tradition whenever a diplomat of the US visits another nation. Every nation visting us should do the same. That includes King Abi Dobi Sheetman
newhon63
February 9th, 2011 at 9:24 am
No, Mubarak is not going to budge. He is going to stay in place for every second he can muster. America didn't consider what to do when they day came. We should have started considering how to distance ourselves away from this man long ago. Dictators go sooner or later. By self-exile or assassination or revolt. We have been propping up Mubarak for far too long. Not to mention the presence of The Muslim Brotherhood. They are a player in this too. Although they are a small group , they are well organized, well financed and they will do things violently if they need to in order get what they want done.
newhon63
February 9th, 2011 at 9:25 am
You are going to be one of those that will be laying at your house in a corner with your thumb in your mouth curled up in the fetal position as The Muslim Brotherhood kicks in your door in America wondering " Why are they bothering me? I bowed under the submission of Islam. I am under their boot so far, I converted to Islam AND I pay the tax of submission, I help them find Christian so they can terrorize them like the good little traitor I was born to be."
Guys like you make me sick. The Muslim Brotherhood has been around since the 1920s and they have had the same agenda all this time. To bring every nation of the world under an Islamic reign. Their motto says" Through Subversion when possible, through violence when necessary " The Muslim Brotherhood is all around the globe.
Your intelligence tells you? Hahahahahaa, You Inspector Gadget now? You have secret agents across the globe do you? Only thing I can say to that is " Hey, The doctor told you that if you don't take your medication everyday, the voices will come back. And you will start eating from garbage cans and sleeping in refrigirator boxes again."
newhon63
February 9th, 2011 at 9:39 am
I was talking to KeithISGREAT,
He hates Israel with a passion. I asked him why . Waiting for him to respond. But then he also thinks Hamas and the other terrorist groups are not bad. So there may be medications missing here. Not sure.
But then he claims that many on here feel the same way he does about Israel. I was not buying it until I read some more of the posts here. It would seem that more hate Israel than I first suspected. So to some people, I guess Israel doesn't count even if they are the only country I would trust in all of the Middle East to have my back and not worry about getting stabbed. But then the way Obama has treated Israel recently perhaps I should not be thinking Isreal would be a good choice since Obama through them under the bus.
newhon63
February 9th, 2011 at 9:48 am
Bad prediction. Your post was 6 days ago. So it was posted last Thurday, February 4th. Mubarak is still there and here it is, February 9th, Wednesday. Hmmmm………Time for your meds again.
newhon63
February 9th, 2011 at 9:59 am
Islamic problem? Where? What Islamic problem? Oh, over there where they are trying to get Sharia Law to be considered in court cases involving Muslims? One is the case where the man ran over his daughter because she rejected her father's traditions of arranged marriages and called it " honor killing"?
Oh, that problem. Yea. Unfortunately our government listens to the belly aching of CAIR(Council on American-Islamic Relations) about how the muslims are being treated and yet we are not allowed to pray in our schools but they build special accomodations so the muslims can spread their rugs out and pray 5 times a day. Right now, our curse is an exploding debt and being beat over the head with Political Correctness so the lines to our representatives are all busy, Please stay on the line and someone will be with you in 90 days. Personally I would clean our country out, revoke all student visas and kick them out along with the illegal immigrants. Close the borders and make the world education their own damn kids and the US will educate ours.
newhon63
February 9th, 2011 at 10:09 am
That will never happen. If Israel tried to compromise with the Palestinians and give them what they wanted, The Palenstinians would just ask for more and if they didn't get that, it would be back to square one. This circle would continue to happen until Israel is pushed into the sea. I don't know that the Palestinians are entitled to any of the land. I would have to research it. But our President threw Israel under the bus so I don't imagine Israel is too happy with our administration right now. Be that as it may, our President wants Israel to back off , and he gave The Palenstinian Authority aid recently. So you know where his head is at.
I think the US should back off of everyone. If we take our aid from Israel, we should take it from everyone. We can't afford to be helping everyone anymore. We have 3/4 of a billion dollars going to Mexico. Why the hell are we sending any money to those corupt losers? The Mexican presidento has most likely been in bed with the drug cartels and now they are so big, they don't need the government anymore. So they kicked The presidentio oiut of the bed and he is looking for another Sugardaddy.