One of the foundations of modern society is the belief that governments’ legitimacy is derived from the consent of the governed — a concept championed by political philosophers of the 18th century European Enlightenment, such as John Locke. It was Locke’s treatises on government that inspired the Declaration of Independence by the thirteen American colonies in 1776, as well as the Constitution that established the United States of America as the first modern republic in 1787.
The exact nature of the consent, however, has been a point of contention ever since. Today, the prevalent position among the governments is that any government whose country is not in a state of active rebellion is presumed to have at least the tacit consent of the populace. Furthermore, as a demonstration of that consent, just about every government in the world organizes elections and pays lip service to democracy.
What happens, however, when the governed begin to believe that the government no longer cares about their consent, or lack thereof?
A Simple Method
With the end of the Cold War, a number of policymakers in the West fell prey to a seductive belief in the "end of history" — the notion, first proposed by Francis Fukuyama, that western liberal democracy has decisively triumphed over every other form of government. Yet the 1990s and the first decade of the 21st century have proven over and over that this belief was not just mistaken, but dangerously so.
As political forms go, democracy is fairly straightforward. Direct democracy, as practiced by ancient Athenians, decided on the issues. As polities became bigger and populations more numerous, in its modern form democracy became representative: the voting populace would elect representatives from the ballot, and whoever won the most votes would form a government. That government has to follow through on its electoral promises, or be thrown out of power in the next cycle in favor of someone else — in theory, anyway.
The modern West has elevated democracy from a simple method of decision-making into an arcane form of political religion. Yet, ironically, it was the West that undermined that concept of "democracy" the most.
Vote Till You Get It Right
During the Cold War, the U.S. would often use force or proxies to overthrow democratically elected governments — e.g. in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, and Chile. In Iran, the CIA was behind the 1953 coup that deposed the popular Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh and restored the autocratic Shah; the resulting anti-American sentiment was used by the Islamic regime that came to power in 1979, and the animosity has been mutual ever since.
More recently, the way the European Union has managed its process of transformation from a free-trade zone to a megastate is replete with examples of selective democracy. When the proposed EU constitution was defeated in referenda in France and the Netherlands, the Brussels bureaucracy simply re-framed it as another treaty, to be ratified in national parliaments. The only EU member obligated by its own laws to put the matter to a referendum was Ireland. In 2008, the Irish voted no. So the EU had them vote again, in 2009.
Democracy for Democratic Democrats Only
Last, but not least, there is the matter of the elected government in Serbia. Slobodan Milosevic, routinely denounced as a "dictator" in Western Europe and America, actually held elections and did not ban opposition parties. In October 2000, an American-assembled and NED-financed coalition of opposition parties claimed to have won the presidential vote, and organized massive demonstrations in the capital. Before the votes could be counted, the ballots perished in the fire set by the protesters in the national assembly building. To avoid bloodshed, Milosevic conceded the election to challenger Vojislav Kostunica.
Since then, the outcome of each election in Serbia has been heavily influenced by EU and U.S. envoys in Belgrade, who exerted tremendous pressure to ensure that "pro-Western" presidents and cabinets ended up triumphant. Over and over, popular will at the ballot box was subverted in favor of outcomes blessed by Washington and Brussels. On one such occasion, in 2007, Philip Cunliffe observed:
"…what counts as democracy is what the EU decides is democratic, and the democrats are those who are anointed by the international community, regardless of who actually receives the votes."
The culmination of this "logic" was the formation of the current Serbian government, in June 2008, composed of two coalitions that campaigned on opposite platforms. Needless to say, that government is considered properly "democratic" even though not a single person ever actually voted for it. Worse yet, its actions ever since have clearly indicated that the only consent it cares about is that of Brussels and Washington, rather than the people of Serbia.
From Carthage With Rage
In early January, a young Tunisian unable to get a permit for selling his vegetables on the street set himself on fire in desperation. When a crowd gathered to protest the tragedy, the police opened fire. The ensuing riots snowballed into a revolution, and President Ben Ali fled the country.
The Tunisian "Jasmine revolution" seems to have inspired riotous expressions of popular discontent in Algeria, Yemen and Egypt. Al-Jazeera’s coverage of the Egyptian unrest was accompanied by an interesting photograph of a protester wearing a Guy Fawkes mask, reminiscent of the 2006 film V for Vendetta. Meanwhile, the Lebanese rioted over the announcement that their next PM would be an oligarch with Hezbollah support, while clashes between the government and opposition supporters in Albania have resulted in at least three deaths.
At first glance, this appears to be just the sort of spontaneous eruption of democracy that Bush the Lesser and his backers proclaimed would result from their "liberation" of Iraq. Yet the U.S. government reaction has been devoid of enthusiasm. Publicly, both Secretary Clinton and Emperor Obama have paid lip service to democracy and human rights. In practice, though, they continue to back the governments currently in place.
Ben Ali was an ally of France and the U.S., while it is unclear what road his successors may take. Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak is likewise an ally, and a recipient of massive U.S. aid. Plus there is a danger that he could be succeeded by the Muslim Brotherhood, a militant Islamic movement. The prospect of having Iranian-backed Hezbollah actually in charge of the Lebanese government gives both the U.S. and Israel a fit. As for Albania, U.S. and EU envoys have pleaded with both sides to stop the violence and reconcile. The Albania Empire needs is an exemplar of pro-American sentiment, a stalwart NATO member and a preferred tourist destination, not a violent haven for political corruption and heinous crimes.
Spring is Coming
Whether the unrest around the Mediterranean ends up escalating to revolutionary levels or calms down after Imperial soothing depends largely on the motivation and determination of the demonstrators. Unlike the staged "revolutions" in Ukraine, Georgia, Kyrgyzstan and elsewhere (which were based on the template field-tested in 2000 in Serbia), the revolts this month appear to be spontaneous and genuine. Their outcome, therefore, is hardly predetermined. In addition to poverty and frustration with corruption, another factor in Egypt and Lebanon is the popular outrage over the content of the "Palestine Papers," published just days ago by Al-Jazeera. The Middle East seems headed to a spring of discontent.
So do other places. There have been riots in Europe already, with people protesting government policies — or lack thereof. Popular discontent in the U.S. had found an outlet in the "Tea Party" phenomenon. More and more it is becoming obvious that politics as usual simply doesn’t cut it anymore. The real question is, what will?
Read more by Nebojsa Malic
- The Serbian Job – May 18th, 2012
- Tyranny of Good Intentions – May 3rd, 2012
- Between Hope and Despair – April 20th, 2012
- Hunger Games – March 29th, 2012
- Reality Rift – March 9th, 2012





Peter RV
January 29th, 2011 at 5:40 am
Malic is mixing real popular revolts with an organized (CIA-Mosad?) sham, by saying :
"the Lebanese rioted over the announcement that their next PM would be an oligarch "
The 'Lebanese', he calls a group of Hariri followers, mad for having lost privileges, who decided to burn tyres in front of television cameras?
abiman
January 29th, 2011 at 7:13 am
Egypt is intriguing in many respects. Army officials are consulting in US . Army in Egypt is creating an impression of being neutral or not against the rebelling crowd.Army has actually chased the security police on some occasions. US has before the dust has settled , alreday indicated that miliatry aid may be cut off without specifying when and what would demand that kind of reaction from US. Is US looking for a new face who will be like obama full of platitudes but hollow in substance ? Will Egypt be betrayed like US has been ?
Alban
January 29th, 2011 at 8:04 am
Another shallow and vomit inducing commentary by the hatemonger in chief, Mr.Malic himself. Your read of the current political events is unique to you and your distorted understanding of the world. It is just a shame writers of this capacity and mental state are allowed and given space in this website.
The world is indeed in a critical turning point, but be sure Mr.Malic, it is not turning back to the delusion of the old Yugoslav times. Albanians in particular are not going to ever put up with serb criminels, armed with a gun or a pen!!!
The events is Albania are a true demonstration of democracy in the works. People can object to the current governance and demand a better administration of the resources. No, there is no GENOCIDE, like the one done by serbs to albanians, nobody closed the university (like serbs did to the Albanian university of Albanians…). So I can see you actually being a bit confused in these issues. You take them all of the events of the week with your sick hateful mind.
Kosovars and Albanians are united and determined to make this part of the world peaceful, inviting, and welcoming to everyone, even to normal Serbs, so they all can enjoy the traditional Albanian hospitality. Look forward to see you Mr.Malic in a better state of mind and spirit. Do not let your anti-Albanian paranoia eat your health and ruin your mind, as it has done so for such a long time. Cheer up! The world is not black.
You do need specialized mental health treatment though, no doubt no that.
MichaelKenny
January 29th, 2011 at 8:08 am
Oh dear! The Israel Lobby is still trying to flog the dead Serbian horse! That they are still stuck with that eternally-repeating broken record illustrates the magnitude of their defeat in Europe. Take courage, American friends! You too can defeat the Lobby!
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 10:18 am
I suppose the Israel Lobby also suggested Mr Malic that link to AlJazeera's coverage of the Palestine Papers, probably in order to reveal all the good faith with which Israel has participated in the peace process.
Actually, I think that this column is a sort of outlet for Serb haters who come here to disgorge their bile but never address any of the issues raised in the article. In fact, they hardly could, since I doubt they even read the column.
Keep coming and keep commenting. With people like you, who needs to spend on media spinning?
bozh
January 29th, 2011 at 11:00 am
fukuyama did not espy that history for some people ended millennia ago. i mean, it ended then for tillers, fishers, weavers, tool makers and a new one began for priestly class of life
it, self, later had to share it with newly rising 'nobles' [read, please mafia].
in view [hey, kids u shld have espied this by now!] that we have only two structures of society and governance to fully develop or develop to our liking: structures presented by world clerico-noble class of low life, or a structure of a fisher; the latter ending the former in distant future.
wld u say, we'd perish if we wld not end obama's history? For an answer to that, please, pray to goddevil monopoly or, if u desire, u can pray to god-devil duopoly. i won't tho! i got better things to do! tnx
bozh
January 29th, 2011 at 11:23 am
malic:
"Since then, the outcome of each election in Serbia has been heavily influenced by EU and U.S. envoys in Belgrade, who exerted tremendous pressure to ensure that "pro-Western."
however, even obrenovic had been much influenced by what magyars, bulgarians, kosovars, bosnians, croats, austrians, and germans thought or said.
obrenovic, serb king, appears to have been correct; alas, thus, not good enough for most or most powerful serbs.
his stance wld have ended serb dream from obtaining lands to which they fled for refuge-better life.
actually, events which ensued in the 90s, prove that obrenovic and many serbs had a correct expectation of what wld happen to serbia and diaspora serbs, if serbia wld launch an attack against so many countries and regions.
i do not think EU-U.S. wants more wars in the balkans. if i am not mistaken, eu-us had explicitly stated that centuries-old borders r inviolable.
chetniks seem not to be listening or understanding what their stance may bring about. at one time germany may have taken as much 500k refugees. it has, methinks, the right to be concerned! tnx
bozh
January 29th, 2011 at 11:49 am
in any system of rule in which ?100% of people practice independence or cosa mia view, the govt wld comprise robbers, deceivers.
if selves not governed, such people wld alway look after selves first of all. this is the case in any communist, socialist, democratic, royalist state.
one first has to have a majority of people who above else behave-feel-think in a socialist way. and that may take decennia or even centuries! 'democrats' knowing this, can and will use this against any equality builders.
in short, one has to realize the best living is an interdependent manner of living and never ever independent or dependent manner.
fathers of the confederations, tudjman, milosevic, clerics, 'nobles' [modern and old], 'educators' r aware what has to be done: render the pop independent dependencies; then, wage poverty, nescience, hate, intolerance, supremacism [ethnic, religious, personal] and u'v ensured ur rule.
for one cannot wage any war unless one first of all wages nescience; followed by poverty, anger, hate etc.
china, eg, does not wage poverty for most people and enormous wealth for a few. and that is the key to it all. tnx
bozh
January 29th, 2011 at 12:02 pm
expect not much–if any– good to come out of tunisian revolution. of all the political moves, protesting mafia's doings is one the worst and most useless ones.
one first has to set up an antipodal party to the mafioso one. then, vote for it! hit the streets only if 'democrats' start killing or imprisoning ur candidates or leaders.
only this way one cld win over a few generals and spies and who just might roll out some tanks in defense of ur party.
however, as long all generals and spies wld support the ruling party, protests wld be more than useless! also spricht bozhidarevski!
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
Would you mind sharing with us where you victual? Judging by your writings, your weed must be top quality. Unless it's your natural state.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
I wanted to avoid using "Serbophobes" and instead I ended up using an ambiguous expression. I should have stuck with my original idea so instead of "outlet for Serb haters", read "outlet for Serbophobes".
B..
January 29th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Oh, dear, another round of an obsessive rambling by the newest village idiot, ie. the atrocity-denying joke properly nicknamed "Alban" who uses this thread to spit his usual portion of garbage.
Listen, organ-seller, nobody gives a damn 'bout your Nazi-statelet, founded on the unspakable tradiotions of atrocities committed both by your (Ottoman/Austro-Hungarian/Hitler-loving) gang of mass-murdering,thuggish and cowardly ancestors, and monstrous (dope-smuggling, organ-harvesting) criminal contemporaries.
Bark on as long as you like
B..
January 29th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
PS And Alban, if you dare bragging about your thuggish 'achievements' of torturing unarmed and unprotected Kosovo Serb civilians EVER AGAIN (as you've been doing on previous threads), I'll make sure your psychopathic ramblings are reported a way beyond this site. This is civilized world, not your mass-murdering cave. And remember, the current occupation is just a temporary thing. Even a stupid nazi like you must be figuring that
B..
January 29th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
Oh, dear! The resident Serbian-casualties-denier and Israel-hater shares his nonsensical drivel with the rest of the world again! Surprise, surprise!
B..
January 29th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
My response was directed to this weird Kenny fellow, not to Vojkan.
Carpenter13
January 29th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Exactly my thought. Mubarak and Ben Ali were pro-Israel, pro-NWO, and therefore received support and financial treats. The government in Lebanon is the opposite. The pro-Israeli, pro-NWO protesters in Lebanon have more in common with the protesters in Serbia mentioned earlier in the story – who were funded by NED and other neocon organizations, just like the the organizations that committed coups in Georgia, Ukraine and elsewhere.
This is "managed democracy," the new dictatorship. Tyrants are smarter these days, paying lip service to the religion of Democracy to gain legitimacy, just like they used to pay lip service to various other religions in the past. Same in the West. Real opposition parties, those who want to stop mass immigration and want to leave the EU, are held down in a thousand different ways, their members' careers destroyed – but Democracy is still touted as the law of the land. The oppressed parties are anti-democratic you see, so you don't have to give them any space to answer to the slander.
When West Europeans are as poor as the Algerians and Egyptians, there will be more revolts. When an NWO stronghold like Egypt can be toppled, that does not bode well for the Washington-Tel Aviv axis.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
Don't bother answer him. If only what he says were true so we had something to be really ashamed of, instead of being put to shame for no reason at all by the Serbian government.
Unfortunately, we are the most incompetent genocide perpetrators in History. Our population keeps shrinking. That of our "victims" keeps growing. We get dispossessed of our lands. Our "victims" transform them into desert when they get their hands on them.
And the only way they know of to sustain themselves is through trafficking: drugs, white slaves, organs, it doesn't matter, as long as they don't have to work.
bozh
January 29th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
let's face serb protests since ca '85 only worked until '95 and only because all serb generals have supported chetniks demand serb army attack croatia and bosnia.
protester-demanders get nothing unless they also get tanks and they knew they had more of them that any republic. elementary!
a protest-demand to be taken up by govt must have army onside.
nevertheless, the [ad]ventures ended badly fro veleserbs.
today, or even in '95, serb govt and army appears not to be listening to chetniks. and malic's dream is becoming a nightmare: no greater serbia and thus tadich becoming a quisling– as he says.
i thought nedic and pavelic were?
once ur lifelong dream forever slips away, nobody can deal with it w.o. much anguish, hatred, anger, etc.
lesson: don't put all ur eggs in one basket! live and let live; talk but don't kill, etc.
bozh
January 29th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
it is true tha serbs heard only serb story since ca '87. serbs were being raped, killed, fired from, jobs, ustahe r coming back to finish off serbs, etc..
muslim of bosnia were as bad if not even worse than ustashe. they also wanted to impose shariah law.
milosevic, meanwhile fired all editors or shut-fined media which opposed him or did not go along with his description of what went on.
so, what r poor serbs to do that so bravely and valiantly defend their brothers in 'holy' serb lands!
but in august '95, all chetniks abandoned the krajina a day before the Storm along with entire leadership.
so, as so often happens, hunters of people, selves being hunted or flee for deer lives! guess what happened?
but babich was delivered to hague. he cried as a baby at icty before he was sentenced by court. tnx
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 3:16 pm
You're an idiot and I shouldn't answer you, but so many people are misinformed that I feel compelled to.
There was no Serb army prior to the formation of the VRS, the army of Republika Srpska. The army you are referring to had 25% Slovenian generals, 25% Croat, 25% Serb and 25% others. It hardly could be called a "Serb" army therefore. Heard of Petar Šimić, Stane Brovet, Veljko Kadijević? They hardly can be deemed Serbian nationalists.
Btw, Nedić and Pavelić were quislings. Neither of them was chetnik. Mihajlović was and he wasn't a quisling.
bozh
January 29th, 2011 at 4:41 pm
kadijevic had ben yugoslav defense minister in aug '90 when socalled yugoslav army occupied some pockets of croatia. he was serb from bosnia, hadzic, also a serb, had been commander of yugoslav army.
however, by that time it had predominatly a serb-montenegrin army. brovet simply defended tito's yugoslavia, but only until he realized what the serb army was up to.
it had been kadijevic who said in '91: we are leaving slovenia not because r were weak, but because we r strong.
we knew what he meant! serbia retained the label yugoslavia only because it cld claim the property of all other republics and to avoid any blame for its aggressions.
of course, serbs in '90 and even '91 wld use anyone they cld: albanians, magyars were also forced to fight for serbs.
it shld be noted that malic called tadic "quisling". it is up to him to clarify why he called elected head of serb state "quisling". for all i know, he just might have been frustrated with his course he's taking now.
i do not trust at this time any serb leader.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 6:19 pm
Uhh no, Kadijevic was no Serb from Bosnia, he was Serb by his father and Croat by his mother. And since you pretend being from Sibenik, you must have heard of Imotski, his hometown, it's not that far away, and it's not in Bosnia. The name of the chief of the general staff was Adzic not Hadzic. And you forget the deputy minister, Stane Brovet who wasn't Serb but Slovenian.
And tell me, did all those volunteers from Istria come to fight along Serbs from Krajina because they were forced to or because they realised that they'd have to live under the yoke of illiterate barbarians like you if they didn't?
Finally, I won't demean myself into explaining you how electoral fraud can get quislings elected, since your contempt for the Tunisians' struggle speaks volumes of your understanding of democracy and peoples' will. Guess what, Ben Ali had been elected too, repeatedly, just as Tudjman had been, just as Tadic had been.
Now, if you were capable of putting one fact straight in all your blathering instead of trying to spread proven falsehoods, maybe there would be a reason for the staff here to tolerate you further, under the guise of the First Amendment. But I definitely think you have forfeited that right.
bozh
January 29th, 2011 at 7:07 pm
kadijevic had ben yugoslav defense minister in aug '90 when socalled yugoslav army occupied some pockets of croatia. he was serb from bosnia.
ok, we'l see who's right about tunisian revolution or, rather, revolt-protest.
it is of no import whatever where kadijevi wasb born– it only matters that he along adzic, milosevic, jovic et al ordered young serb boys to go to war and die for their dreams and their parents nightmares.
what mattered is that he [and not brovet] was trying to create greater serbia. the poor kids he ordered to murder others were frightened to death just thinking of what an ustasha wld do.
that propaganda helped immensely croat defense.
please do call us barbarous; especially to young serbs. tell then what's gonna happen to them if they set foot in croatia.
we are indeed ferocious, illiterate, peasant like. and that's why chetniks and serb soldiers from serbia fled their 'holy' land the day croat army attacked them. tnx
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 7:11 pm
From the reactions here, on Facebook, and on other forums, I really have the feeling that what's been going on in Northern Africa has made a lot of people uncomfortable.
Events there are proving truly inconvenient for the stereotypes based discourse the self-proclaimed "international community", aka NATO countries led by the USA, have invested so much in spreading, in order to justify their meddling in other peoples' business and to camouflage their crimes as humanitarian interference.
I don't know how it will all end but I can only wish for a snowball effect to eventually hit back those who are at the same time the most vocal advocates and the most fearful enemies of democracy.
Alban
January 29th, 2011 at 9:48 pm
Holly molly, Mr.B!!!!! Where have you been! Straight from hell and back and forth a couple of times! Forgot to take your pills again?
"(Ottoman/Austro-Hungarian/Hitler-loving) gang of mass-murdering,thuggish and cowardly ancestor……." You too need specialized mental health treatment, URGENTLY!
I was and still am hoping there can be a way to bring peace in the Balkans….. but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, definitely not with people like YOU! My message here is the one of peace and understanding. My first message really was that Albanians have lost more than anyone else, and do look forward to future peace, if at least for our kids, if not for ourselves.
You are threatening to report me for what I am saying, you coward? You do not like that I am asking you to be a human, for once in your pathetic animal life? What bragging are you talking, you dwarf? My pleading for peace and not spreading hate sounds "barking" to you, you animal? You are a low life, and the only way you know to live is HATE Albanians. Yes, I may continue with name-calling you even further….with a richer vocabulary indeed, and slowly but surely I would become you! But, I must stop! My reason tells me that this is not the way a civilized forum should behave. And it does not help venting this way!
No sir, Albanians do prefer a more civilized world. My message to you and ALL hatemongers in this forum is: STOP spreading hate! Nobody wins! You are certainly not doing any favors to Serbs either.
Messages like Mr.B's is what Mr.Malic''s comments bring about. As already urged several times already: Mr.Malic, STOP spreading hate! Indeed, you and your followers need to be reported for hate-mongering. It has been going on for such a loooooong time already! It must stop! For everyone's sake.
Last but not least: every nation has its share of pigs, no exceptions! You hateful guys here, are just part of that unfortunate statistical chance. No no sir, I know very well that not all Serbs are like you! Writing these sentences here is only hopping that some normal people with normal human decency would positively reflect to a call for peace. I am still hoping that those people are out there,and are reading these posts. It is time to pull your keyboard and write something constructive.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 10:00 pm
The proof of your vocabulary's poorness is that the correct spelling is "Holey moley".
However much you pretend, you're too transparent. You are not civilised. Period :)
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 10:30 pm
Actually Serbs fled because Milosevic betrayed them. He ordered the army to retreat, so civilians were left with a choice: pack up and flee or sit waiting for ustashas to slaughter them. They fled and they got rolled over by Croatian tanks with Croatian propaganda presenting as if the Milosevic's army which retreated one day before did it.
And they were right to flee, given the heroics Croats performed on the elderly people who, unable to escape, remained.
Please, continue to look down on Tunisians. Let it be known what disgusting racists and fascists you Croats are. You even managed to shock a friend of mine, a French, who was so happy to discover the beauties of the Dlamatian coast, and who, when he returned from his vacation, had a hard time looking me in the eyes because his Croat hosts proved me right.
He told me "they truly are fascists"; Yes my friend, they are. And unlike the German or the Italian who have some reason to be proud of their nations' past achievements, Croats have nothing to be proud of.
Speaking of that, let's compare the Serbs' and the Croats' contributions to mankind….
You are illiterate barbarians. You never ever have been on the side of good. History proves it.
MvGuy
January 29th, 2011 at 10:35 pm
Are you referring to Pres "0" & the Trojan Whores…???
Alban
January 29th, 2011 at 10:35 pm
I am sorry indeed Vojkan! I do not spell-check before submitting these messages here! There are some other typos too that I might have to edit….
You see, reading all these hate-filled messages from Mr.Malic and his followers here does something to my head for sure. I am absolutely flabbergasted at the animosity of some writers here. I was called a NAZI!!!! My grand father fought Nazis from south Albania all the way to Montenegro and even got a bullet from them in his thigh. My father (8 years old at the time) barely escaped being torched alive by them when they burned his parents two story house…. which would have been mine by now, as it was in a nice southern Albania town. Yet, there are people like Mr.B here that instead of reflecting positively and constructively on the albanian-serb issues, start pulling their "stadium" vocabulary (or should I say "Arkan paramilitary") vocabulary?
Again, I sincerely hope this hate spreading will stop! I appeal to everyone's consciousness.
MvGuy
January 29th, 2011 at 10:40 pm
EEEEEKKKKKK………..BARF………B.. WTF Get a life or at least a POINT….. & stop sputtering!….!
Alban
January 29th, 2011 at 10:43 pm
I am sure there must be a pill or a doctor somewhere for you too!
MvGuy
January 29th, 2011 at 11:06 pm
Let it Sno-Ball…!!!!
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 29th, 2011 at 11:17 pm
Spell-checking wouldn't have corrected you.
If indeed your grandfather fought Nazis, and I believe it is possible, though from a few casual talks I've had with descendants of Italian WWII soldiers, I would have imagined that he'd have been more likely to fight Italian fascists, then you must understand that the people currently governing Kosovo are no better than Nazis since they consider that they are the law, whatever they do, and they do a lot of awful things.
I do admit that Serbs have done harm to Albanians, but you must admit that Albanians have done harm to Serbs. And there is one thing you'll have to cope with, Serbs are willing to give Kosovo Albanians all the autonomy they want but there is a red line. That red line is independence.
If we could find a modus vivendi through negotiations, knowing that we Serbs will never accept Kosovo's independence, and knowing that you Albanians don't want to be ruled by Serbs, maybe we could have constructive talks.
As it is, only seeds for future wars can thrive.
Nigel
January 30th, 2011 at 2:49 am
Serbs playing the victim card…..Oh my …
Serbs have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Serbs cannot have it
both ways. Bully others that it can and whine when the US/Nato put Serbia in their place.
The Russians are in no position to help but I figure that fact has dawned on the Serbs by now.
Emilyrose
January 30th, 2011 at 3:29 am
When the subject of self government arises it is the obvious thing to think of the middle east, the Balkans. the latest dictatorship etc etc.
However I live in a country whose people are imprisoned and have been betrayed by the political class who are merely puppets on strings serving an elite not least in Tel Aviv.
England.
The English have no rights as a nation at all.
We are a part of the UK but unlike the other 3 parts of the UK have no national parliament and our people are dominated by and subject to, the politicians of the other 3, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
We are blatantly discriminated against. For instance only English students will have to pay the new extortionate university charges. The Scots for instance attend for free. Only the English have to pay for medicines.
Add to that our very real imprisonment within the EUSSR.
Most Brits have never been allowed to vote on membership and polls show an OVERWHELMING wish to withdraw.
Our treasonous politicians renege on even election pledges of referenda.
We are trapped in an undemocratic affront to our freedoms, our sovereignty and our independence.
And frankly the Americans are little better off.
They now have a possible impostor as a President, a politicised Supreme Court, a blatant over riding of states rights, and a legislative set of politicians who, in the majority of cases, have loyalty first to a state thousands of miles from Washington.
We are not free, our chains are as great as any Egyptians. Our democracy is a sham.
But believe it or not we too are building up to the streets.
We English wait for another Cromwell however with complete Zionist control of our media such a leader would never get a word in edgeways from the censorship we suffer every day.
theothercanada
January 30th, 2011 at 4:15 am
It is impossible to reason with living organisms who steal and traffic in human organs. IMHO
theothercanada
January 30th, 2011 at 4:23 am
You Serbs have had a COUNTRY from 1903-1914, than you entered/walked into the grave of Serbia and Serbian people refered to as SouthSlaviya. Than you anxiously and with open arms welcomed austro-hungarian Corporal aka Butcher of Serbs and Destroyer of Serbia. Most of what happened to you is result of your people's actions. Did you ever ask yourself why Albanos worship a-h Corporal to this day? It makes sense for them but to have monument to the Butcher of Serbs in the former capital of former Serbia is very confusing.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 30th, 2011 at 5:36 am
I happen to partially agree with you though I don't see the connection with the comment you are replying to.
Maybe the creation of "SouthSlaviya" was the only way victorious powers after WWI were willing to accept the unification of Serbs into one state. Remember that another multi-national state that eventually dissolved (albeit peacefully since ethnic borders were better defined) was created back then, Czechoslovakia.
But that doesn't justify the enthusiasm for Broz and the acceptance of oddly drawn administrative borders. And not all Serbs welcomed the new regime but those who expressed dissent got promptly silenced.
Tomislav
January 30th, 2011 at 5:56 am
"And tell me, did all those volunteers from Istria come to fight along Serbs from Krajina because they were forced to or because they realised that they'd have to live under the yoke of illiterate barbarians like you if they didn't?"
Hahaha…you are completely out of your mind, hallucinating. What volunteers from Istria came to fight along Serbian occupation forces? Something like that never happened. Istria is a region of Croatia, like any other, having a clear Croat ethnic majority and 7% of its population belong to the Italian minority. There are some Serbs living there as well, who came to live in that region after the second world war, mostly from Serbia proper, but they don't amount to more than something like 5% of the region's overall population. People of Istria participated in the Croatian Homeland War (1991-1995), just like people from the rest of Croatia.
You must have read some this nonsense on some nutty conspirational website, With all too well known propensity of Serbs to lie and to invent, soon we may find ourselves in position to read heart-rending "stories" of non-existing Istrian volunteers, about how they defended the poor Croatian Serbs from blood-thirsty fascist Croats.
theothercanada
January 30th, 2011 at 7:11 am
Brave Egyptians, Afghans, Pakistanis, Iraqis are guiding light and example to freedom loving people everywhere. Freedom was not, is not and never will be served on a platter to any Nation/people. Have a great day.
bozh
January 30th, 2011 at 7:59 am
bozh
January 30th, 2011 at 8:24 am
tomislav,
i did not comment on the statement that croats also fought with croatian serbs and for their right to join serbia–oops, yugoslavia.
recall, to chetniks, istrians r not croats and some or most other croats r serbs.
to them, there is no croatia nor its borders; to chetniks, all borders are administrative, except serb. what the word "administrative" means, even chetniks don't know let alone any int'l lawyer.
presumably, it means that one administrates a disputed territory from belgrad- no other authority is valid.
it means sending serb army, the fourth strongest army in the world in aug '90, administering the regions in question, expelling all croats from croatian villages that lie in between serb villages, murdering at least 3 k of them, etc.
it is a neat serb church theology: serbs r everywhere in yugoslavia; croats r nowhere. dalmatians r not croats at times; at other times, they r serbs or very barbaric croats.
are'nt u happy this post ends? and aren't all croats happy they will never again be bothered by chetniks and serb church!!!
finally, after a century, croats do not have live in fear of an imperialist country.tnx
bozh
January 30th, 2011 at 9:08 am
this is the first time i read that english r discriminated by scots. wld u please proffer us some documentation that such discrimination exists? wldn't it be enshrined in u.k. constitution or laws?
i am aware that some scots have sought independence! i wonder to what degree scots and other celts enjoy an autonomy?
if it is the case of scots adopting a more egalitarian structure of society; i.e., all scots sharing more or less equally in what they have–while the english still retaining a sharp division between classes.
i also no nothing about what the 'jews' of england or u.k. do or say regarding the lords u still have in england.
i don't think one can blame 'jews' for how english society is structured today and since a millennium+ ago.
recall, please, lords have expelled centuries ago 'jewish' pop! tnx
bozh
January 30th, 2011 at 9:28 am
for readers other than imperialistic serbs on this site, i have not stated not even tacitly that tunisian people r inferior to any other volk.
running dwn an entire people is a serb trait. just read what they say about other peoples.
i have merely concluded that protest by tunisians wld not bring desired fruit.
not, of course, that their effort is not noble, but because the mafia that also rules that country will never ever give up its privileges no matter how much tunisians.
what tunisians or americans or regionals of a region aka as u.s.; ruled by mafia, need is a chavez or an antipodal party to a fascist one.
but the key to it all is military power! which way will it go in egypt and tunis?
let's also recall, that u.s. and almost all european countries wld oppose creation of a egalitarian society.
i am expecting, that generals in tunis and egypt will side with fascism. they did in serbia in '87, S.U. in '90.
they approbated aggression against palestina, iraq, afgh'n, somalia, c. america, vietnam, korea, et al.
tnx
B..
January 30th, 2011 at 9:30 am
Alban, let's get serious for a moment.
First, you stormed onto this board a couple of threads ago, throwing the ridiculous Albanian nationalist notions around, offending EVERY SINGLE participant by this nonsense that – unlike us "animals" who fail to join the cheering squad for Kosovo 'independence' – there must be some 'good Serbs' around, ready to join the party in honor of their country's carve-up and eager to put aside the discomforting questions about their compatriots tortured, maimed in monstrous organ-harvesting farms.
You started out as a Thaci-posterboy here, now you're withdrawing to the more comfortable refuge of listing the meaningless commonplace "love and peace to everyone ever, but evil Serbs won't let me"-tunes, worth of an average Miss World-speech. You just can't have it both ways.
As for my notion of your monstrosities written here (and the warning that such garbage is NOT to be tolerated within the civilized discourse), c'mon, man, you've done it yourself. Don't make me quote the nonsense you've written on some recent threads, where you engaged in an OPEN campaign of this organ-selling horrors, committed by Thaci and his gang. Being ashamed of it, as an Albanian, is one thing, and wishing that some of your folks haven't done such monstrous obscenity is quite a reasonable reaction (pretty much the same goes for each and every one decent person in the world, when faced with crimes done by their own people), but shouting "it NEVER happened! Malic LIES! Serbs LIE!" in the face of the hard-hitting multitude of evidence, is just an insult. It goes beyond the Serb-Albanian thing, it shows your personal relation to the human suffering. As someone wisely noted below, one cannot be expected to have a decent conversation with the apologist of ORGAN-HARVESTING, man. And you've been DEFENDING the thugs who harvested human organs.
This garbage about "Kosovo Albanian hospitality that even Serbs could enjoy" only amounts to the same. No self-respecting Serb could ever be a GUEST in Kosovo-Metohija, and you know that as well as me.
If you were really interested in finding a common ground for a (difficult and discomforting but DESPERATELY needed for both our nations) dialogue, you could've presented your points without insulting the innocent victims by mocking them in the midst of (belated) discoveries about their unthinkable sufferings. The same goes in other direction, my reaction would be quite the same if a Serb would say "no innocent Albanian civilian has ever suffered".
Besides, I called you a nazi because you've kept defending the worst among the Albanians on this thread all along. I won't even bother to prove (it's just a click away!) that these thugs are proudly claiming the Albanian nazi quislings as their predecessors (naming the streets in Pristina after them, for instance). I wasn't talking about Albanian people as a whole, nor could I ever allow myself such pointless stupidity (which would bring me to a scary position of being you in reverse). If your own ancestors were fighting nazis indeed, then they've been fighting on the same side as my own, and fighters against fascism I can only respect. It is up to you, though, whether you would go on with this chauvinist claims, or engage into an adult discussion for change. If the latter was a case, we would be having a decent, difficult but respectful conversation by now. Unfortunately, you opted for the chauvinist-chanting, atrocity-denying, name-calling grotesque instead. For example, this very article is dedicated to the recent phenomenon in Mid-Eastern politics and istead of writing ANYTHING related to the subject, you've bumped onto thread, yelling "Kosova! Albanians are the best and brightest! Evil Serbs! Malic is Serb! Serbs lie!" What else did you expect in return? ANY different reply to your previous post would be indecent toward the basic notion of human decency.
In case you intend to go on with this, I rest my case here. Either learn yourself how to communicate within the acceptable social discourse, or stop whining when this gruesome defense of yours (defense of ORGAN_HARVESTING THUGS, I repeat) is being properly named.
bozh
January 30th, 2011 at 9:39 am
as u have noticed, dear nonserbs, serbs keep on misquoting, putting their thoughts in other people's mouths, calling names, change subjects, pursue trivial [dis]information.
this is music to the ears of all nonfascists.
the goal is, tho, to drive out a commenter from a serb site. and they will never stop such behavior!
and as angela said: demonize all u want! and they obey her! thank u angela for helping our cause. tnx
B..
January 30th, 2011 at 9:43 am
@ Tomislav
Indeed, the Serbs in Krajina and Croatia have been FORCED to fight against "fascist, bloodthirsty Croats", a notion that you so poorly try to mock. It was a CROAT ruling party at the time who was promising the renewal of the Hitler-sponsored monstrosity called "Independent State of Croatia", it was the CROATIAN president who OPENLY denied the Holocaust and publicly expressed "gratitude that his wife is neither Serb nor Jewish", it was THE CROATIAN policy that re-invented the murderous, genocidal Ustasha Nazi lingo as their own, half a century after the WW2.
Fighting such monstrosity was not only a matter of a common sense for Croatian Serbs (who suffered unthinkably by Croatian fascists half a century prior) but a matter of basic human decency as well.
Alban
January 30th, 2011 at 9:52 am
Ok Vojkan, some reasoning is showing up now…..I have not replied back to any of your previous attacks and name calling….I guess your instincts prevail some times over logic, but you do seem to be open to moderation.
As far as the Germans….if they burnt your house, I am sure you would have done the same, as many Serbs did! My grandfather fought the Italians too (the occupiers), but guess what: when they surrendered, like many other Albanians did, he gave them civilian clothes, food and hid them from Germans to save their life! Four Italians stayed for over a year at my grandparents house and this happened to thousands of them all over Albania (you can check historical facts). These people understood then that healing wounds is better than perpetrating violence. Can we, in this century, have the civility to do the same, and more????
Your last sentence is the best one: "As it is, only seeds for future wars can thrive." Cannot agree more. Let us start from there! So, what can be done to avoid that?
Have Kosova under serb administration again? Under autonomy? — This is not a solution accepted by the Albanians, the majority of the western world, and frankly, objectively speaking, would not work. So, back to war again? No way, we think we are more sophisticated now (both serbs and albanians), so let us think of getting a solution that works for everyone.
What is Kosova? A piece of land where people lived there for centuries: albanians, serbs, roms, turks etc….. a melting pot due to the bloody history of that region. Kosova is its people, all of them! They want to live and prosper there, that is all! For most albanians serb rule was brutal genocide, beatings, death etc….you know the rest. For serbs, Kosovo is the red line….. they see it as their own land….their churches are there, and they should be preserved and protected. They are a great heritage to the people that lived in Kosova.
NATO took the serb rule out by force. Something similar though happened earlier with other Yugoslav republics, with or without NATO intervention: Kroacia, Bosnia, Montenegro etc…
Is it possible to avoid confrontation in the future? Is it possible not to need NATO or Russia to solve OUR problems? How about Serbia and Kosova be good open border neighboring countries, ruled each by their own people (in the case of Kosova both albanians and serbs) with free flow of goods and people, hopefully both part of EU soon (that is not essential though).
Why should Serbia HAVE to have the rule over these people that not far ago, its armed forces wanted kill and displace entirely (all Albanians) from their own land? Why Kosova cannot be ruled by people that live there? Not by Belgrade, not by Tirana!
You said you accept that crimes were committed from both sides and we all should accept that! I completely agree! And even more than agreeing, let us commit all of us to not let that happen again to anyone! I said before: every nation has its share of pigs, no exceptions! These criminals, in both sides, should be prosecuted and made an example. Having said that, you simply cannot equate the aggressors with the victims, the strong versus the weak. Let us be open, as it helps! The origin and amount of killing was disproportionate. Hopefully the effort to undue what was done will be the same! Please do not get stuck on the past and look toward the future. We all cannot afford to continue like this.
Last but not least, a small piece of good info: there is a genuine effort by several Albanian political circles in Tirana to approach the authorities in Belgrade with the objective of normalizing relations, with some positive reactions from Belgrade. No matter what political color, it has to be supported! Tadic has been invited to Tirana and he has accepted the invitation. Look beyond political colors please….. not everybody likes Berisha or Tadic, but there are many people that want normalization of relations.
There are currently many serbs going to Shkodra via agencies as we speak and marry local women. I do not know precisely the why's of this phenomenon, but nevertheless, it is a good sign that our differences are less that some of us make them to be.
Let us hope the cool minds prevail!
Alban
January 30th, 2011 at 10:16 am
I wish I had the energy and incitement to reply to all this! I do not!
If you did not "get it" by now……. it will not happen…..
B..
January 30th, 2011 at 11:09 am
It's up to you to "get it", I'm afraid (having read your reply to Vojkan, I realized the problem we're facing here). You are (or hailing from) Albania proper, and your Kosovo Albanian cousins are enjoying your undivided emotional support, which is, again, quite understandable. What is not, however, is that ridiculous notion of yours that Kosovo – after being forcibly taken away from Serbia, led by innumerable crimes against remaining Serbs and their very notion of identity, topped by sadistic cynicism of Western governments – could magically become the non-subject for Serbs, and an unchallenged loot for Albanians to enjoy happily ever after. I wouldn't even know where to begin with and how to choose the single point from this impossible torrent of tirades that you've treated us with. First, you've stormed here LOUDLY insulting EVERY Serbian Kosovo-related view. Now – having been faced with the sheer obscenity of your recent approach – you're all of the sudden being all Gandhi/John&Yoko/Mother Theresa (a famous Albanian, I know), wisely advising the rest us how to go beyond the past hardships and conflicts.
It is a strange cure you're offering, indeed. Having "won" Kosovo in a century-long campaign of blood&soil-fascism and as a favor gained by bribing the Western political crooks and clowns, you've came to conclusion that it is a time for "the cool minds to prevail", yet denying ONE SINGLE right to Serbs to, perhaps, speak up their minds about the future of their own country (or bombing them into reconsidering any decisions that might contradict to Albanian Lebensraum-project).
It's plain nonsense. I'll be happy to ignore it from now on, unless you engage into mockery of innocent victims murdered by the Thaci Gang again.
Alban
January 30th, 2011 at 11:44 am
There are simple choices to be made, Mr.B….. either continue the same way…… you, all the way there….and me, all the way here….nowhere close to each others opinions, a reflection of where things are in the terrain. It can continue to be like it is right now: iron curtain between Kosova and Serbia, with Belgrade defending the red line (which in reality is only in their manifesto but not in the terrain, and Kosova being the independent country it enjoys to be, with no fear any longer (as long as an American base will be there) that they will be persecuted again. A false co-existence enforced by military power.
Or differently, two sovereign states with people working for reconciliation and prospering in the global marketplace. With no superpower interference! It is up to all of us to make these choices!!!!
AGAIN, it is easy to be destructive, but hard to be constructive. Which one would you (and me) choose?
PS: Mr.Malic, even on the current events, dominated by Middle East (Egypt in particular) finds the time to through a quick fireball at Albanians again…..too pro-American for him……. Sorry, people tend to be appreciative when someone saves their life! Old habits die hard I guess…..he has been doing these Albanian bashing for such a long time now. Time to change your tune!
Alban
January 30th, 2011 at 11:48 am
Congrats Djokovic! Good game…he just won!
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 30th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Nobody knows what History will bring.
Kosovo has acquired such an overwhelming majority of Albanian population through ethnic cleansing policies. We can discuss this over and over. Facts are facts. If Albanians were such good neighbours, the demographic balance today might be slightly different from what it was 65 years ago because of natality rates, but it would be nowhere near what it is today.
I happen to have origins in Kosovo, so I don't rely on myths to state my opinion. I rely primarily on what I have seen with my own eyes. True, there was Serb racism against Albanians, but true also, there was a lot of unprovoked Albanian violence directed against Serbs before Milosevic came to power.
And historically, Kosovo is not Albanian. All the toponymy is Serbian. Orthodox Serb religious constructions precede any other. Kosovo is Serbia's cradle. There is an overwhelming immigrant majority just North of Paris, in a town where I lived and that holds in a basilica the graves of French kings. It will be French forever. Just as Kosovo will be Serb forever.
As I said, I understand that Albanians don't want to be ruled by Serbs, but you just can't come in and overtake a land that doesn't belong to you, as Israelis have done in Palestine. It may work on a short term, but History is a long period and to have Serbs renounce Kosovo means that we'll have to be exterminated to the last.
If you don't get to understand that whatever the quislings governing Serbia sign, Serbs as a nation will never accept an independent Kosovo the way we have accepted an independent Slovenia or an independent Macedonia, then there is very little prospect for any meaningful talks and there is a lot of prospect for a future war.
Bear in mind that no empire has lasted forever.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 30th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
The volunteers didn't came to fight along "occupation" forces. They came to fight against the Tudjman's regime because they were quite well aware of how Croats treated minorities. If the Italians make up only 7% of the population in Istria, in spite of having been a majority there before WWII, it has a lot do with the same Croat national goals that proclaimed that Serbs should be reduced to a negligible quantity.
People from Istria participated in your "homeland" war because they were forced too, but if a referendum was to be organised under international supervision to ask them if they'd prefer independence or being a part of Croatia, you'd risk a big surprise at seeing how many of them actually have the exact same opinion of you as I do. Unless of course you have managed to cleanse Istria since 1995 the way you have cleansed other parts of Croatia.
You are fascist barbarians. Everybody with a sound mind who has ever had a contact with you knows it. It's just that there are people who give priority to owning a villa on the Adriatic over moral principles.
There are maybe hundreds of hooligans in Serbia. But there are hundreds of thousands of Thompson fans in Croatia. And don't tell me it's for the music, I happen to a know a little about music, and musically speaking, his is the same utter rubbish as Serbian turbo folk, which a lot of Croatians seem to like too.
Btw, I somehow doubt your real name is Tomislav. Your Croatian mythomaniac side made you pick it as pseudo.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 30th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
The "dear nonserbs" is so revealing of your obsessions. Keep up the good work.
Btw, I've heard that you had a compulsive disposition to shower Antiwar staff with whining about comments you disliked. Times change, folk. Get used to have your version challenged. And not only by Serbs.
What goes around, comes around.
Tomislav
January 30th, 2011 at 4:25 pm
Who were those mythical Istrian volunteers? When? Any data, any hint, any link? There is large amount of Serbian bullshit about the recent war that can be read on the net, but this is an absolute gem. Istrian volunteers, lol.
Alban
January 30th, 2011 at 5:28 pm
Never spoke of Thaci or defending anyone else….. YOU are putting words in my mouth. Interesting but low moral fabrications! Look back and you will see only constructive sentences and pleads to stop hate spreading comments. There is a reason for it, sir! My aim is to positively influence you and others here to take a different and rational approach to live life in the Balkans. You may disagree…fine, but do not lie and fabricate.
Whoever is proven to have committed crimes, should pay for them, Serb or Albanian or whoever. You sir, otherwise, are too agitated and plainly fabricate sentences. I am not interested to instigate, I am interested to diffuse tensions.
I guess you have a hard time conversing without cursing and name dropping, a real armchair bully! It does not look good on you man, trust me. Read yourself and understand. You are not helping anyone.
All the best.
Alban
January 30th, 2011 at 5:41 pm
Vojkan,
You state: "Kosovo has acquired such an overwhelming majority of Albanian population through ethnic cleansing policies"! Then you continue:" If Albanians were such good neighbors, the demographic balance today might be slightly different from what it was 65 years ago because of natality rates".
A careful reader interprets these comments this way: Albanian population exercised ethnic cleansing policies by utilizing high natality rates!! So they ethnic cleansed through procreation.
If you read this again yourself, considering the intellectual level you demonstrate in your comments, I am sure you will see a problem there.
As for the "And historically, Kosovo is not Albanian", read here (a very anti-albanian text otherwise): http://lamar.colostate.edu/~grjan/kosovohistory.h…
Alban
January 30th, 2011 at 5:54 pm
Your last sentences:
"If you don't get to understand that whatever the quislings governing Serbia sign, Serbs as a nation will never accept an independent Kosovo the way we have accepted an independent Slovenia or an independent Macedonia, then there is very little prospect for any meaningful talks and there is a lot of prospect for a future war.
Bear in mind that no empire has lasted forever."
Indeed no empire lasts forever….. but your comments do incite war and violence. The idea is to work out a peaceful solution no war, and I hope you can do something to help.
Is it not that we are putting comments in: antiwar.com????????????
You mention war as if it is a sure thing, that when it comes, you would displace Albanians by force once Americans retreat. Is that a threat? Get real man! Look around you! There are as many Albanians as they are Serbs, so no guaranties there. Nobody wins and both nations are guarantied to LOOSE! So much for intellectuals from the both sides, exchanging peace comments on antiwar.com
Indeed: "Nobody knows what History will bring. " That is VERY true! So, why not make history peaceful ourselves, design it ourselves and not wait to play in the hands of superpowers? Or wait until the tides turn….which might not even happen in our lifetime?
Hrebeljanovic
January 30th, 2011 at 8:43 pm
"Albanian population exercised ethnic cleansing policies by utilizing high natality rates!! So they ethnic cleansed through procreation. "
Exactly right! How else would you explain the fact that natality rate of Albanians in Kosovo is seven, comparing to only one in Albania? I repeat seven(!) in Kosovo and one in Albania.
There are plenty of Albanian families with sixteen children in Kosovo, dare you to find a single one in Albania.
conumishu
January 30th, 2011 at 9:01 pm
Interesting. Some of what you wrote I was aware of, but I didn't think an English(wo)man was too affected by, let's say, forcing Welsh children to learn their ancestors language when they don't speak it anylonger. But it seems the discrimination against the English is also very real, not only the absurdities (and waste of money) used for enforcing politically correct divisions.
Btw, I don't think Cromwell is the best choice as an example. Only for his determination maybe, but otherwise, looked from afar, he was also the wizard's apprentice who unleashed forces his descendants couldn't master. Though I do understand his legendary stature in the eyes of an English(wo)man.
andy
January 30th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
America should stay out of these tribal fueds.
conumishu
January 30th, 2011 at 9:27 pm
"What goes around, comes around."
Indeed. I have no doubt there's a form of historical justice that will manifest itself.
It was disheartening for me to witness all the lies and mind twisting anti-Serb propaganda attempts from the 90ies, watch all those foaming at the mouth "intellectuals" (the French based bunch – you know who I'm refering to – being top of my disgust list) and, years and horrible, tragic events later, to see that the lies still are effective, the people are again too easily fooled. Only the places and targets change.
Now I'm reduced to hope the Egyptians will make it right – speaks a lot about the Europeans decadence.
bozh
January 30th, 2011 at 10:26 pm
now that serbia had been defeated, we can accept serbs of croatia in the same way as we wld accept any croat. i sincerely hope that all croats wld accept all croat'n serbs as their equal when it comes to accepting croatia as their homeland.
serbia, of course can, and i predict, will help in obtaining just such an attitude.
i am dismayed that some croats have from '93 slain in cold blood so many serbs at medak pocket or just after the storm operation in aug '95. tnx
as an aside, josipovic, the prez of croatia, had averred yesterday, that croat'n constitution is based on antifascism.
he credits croat'n partisans for what croats have now. and so do i. yes, i come from a partisan town, but i wld think that way, anyway.
the key to brotherhood between s. slavs is to think self first as being a human and only thereafter as a fellow human being, parent, brother, and an ethnic.
no, don't love ur neighbor– please just respect herhim! don't believe in silly religion and the edict to love another as self.
that cannot be done for centuries, if ever?
bozh
January 30th, 2011 at 10:28 pm
so, why haven't u stayed out of tribal affairs of n. america??
Nikola The Serb
January 31st, 2011 at 5:51 am
Look at Croatian fascists turning the Jasenovac narrative into mockery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HhXWuYhX0w
http://jugoslavija.forumotion.net/t48-ustaske-laz…
I noticed that plenty of Croats, whenever the discussion on Jasenovac and the Ustasha genocide is taken up, tend to resort to mockery, instead of being ashamed. That says is enough about their purported "culture". While no respectful German ever mocks Auschwitz and Buchenwald.
It's so amazing to see how that people (Croats) has no feeling of shame for what their co-nationals did during the second world war. I mean, the vast majority. They are either proud of the ustasha regime and contemptuous of its victims, or they turn the entire thing into parody. Or even, as it is the case with many of them, they are simply indifferent to the whole issue: according to them, it is some piece of ancient history, something that happaned 70 years and is unrelated to the present in any meaningful sense, while those Serbs who dare speak about that are simply dismissed as boring whiners and victimists etc. Then there are "antifascist", left-wing Croats, who also think they ought not to be ashamed of anything because they support the other, antifascist side, which actively fought against the Ustasha state. Either way, they don't think they should feel any shame for anything. Unlike today's Germans.
Alban
January 31st, 2011 at 7:02 am
I was hoping the logic would prevail here regarding this issue, and I did not comment on it initially expecting you to understand the falsity of it yourself. It did not. Here it is:
WHO and UN population programs have poured billions of dollars in family planning and population birth control research and interventions over the years. IPPF (International Planned Parenthood Federation) has concluded that the most important factor in population control is lack of access to quality health care, access to family planning clinics, in other words, health disparity. High birth rates show the health care disparity access Albanians had compared to the rest of Slav republics in Yougoslavia. Are you going to accuse 1.4 billion Chinese or over 1.1 billion Indians of ethnic cleaning, as they have had a very hard time to educate and provide fertility control medical clinics in their countries. This is the typical anti-Albanian RACIST Serb propaganda fed to your population and brainwashed you for years and yes, plenty of you internalized this, without questioning its merit. Racism shut off the mind and logic to some of you at times, even though there are plenty of decent Serb academics and physicians that know and recognize this is bullshit! Albanians were treated as second class citizens for decades, never even allowing them to have their own republic within Yougoslavia, and even their so called autonomy was striped away at some point. You expected them to look forward to live in that kind of a union? No way sir! Serbs would have done the same if the situation was reversed. Let us keep it real and objective, as it will help us all in the future to build and establish mutually respecting and long lasting relationships. Say NO to racism!
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 31st, 2011 at 11:40 am
It's about a subject that went on French television. The problem is that since I hope the people I saw on that reporting are still alive, I can't put them into harm's way by revealing the link. And I don't want the author of the report to end up like Xavier Gauthier who tied his hands behind his back before hanging himself, where was it in Spain btw? Even Google doesn't have memory of everything. That's why WikiLeaks is a God's gift.
So, feel free to call me liar and to lol, I made a mistake. I happen to like people from Istria and you happen to horrify me. Feelings are bad advisers sometmes.
Rad
January 31st, 2011 at 2:13 pm
I agree with you. The "antifascist" Croats appeared after 1943 when
Hitler's victory on eastern front was in question. Before that, only so called antifascists were old communists taking an opportunity against Yugoslavia state , etc. The other day in researching the WWII in Croatia and discovered (again) something: the ustashis and domobrans in mase were accepted i 'partisans' units 1943/44 after being captured. This
information could be found in Croatian archives – since they are not pretending anymore…. They are proud of their fascist past.
Only thing what they repeat: "Chetniks, Milosevic, Velika Serbia" when
talking about Serbs. They are following the PR script. There is more to
the subject of Croats which is not related to Mr. Malic's current article.
He must be doing something right as being attacked by the Croats and
Albanians all the time – regardless of his column subject.
Vojkan Miosavljevc
January 31st, 2011 at 2:51 pm
Actually,since I'm talking to an idiot barbarian, I hate to do this, but since you're a Croat moron: MySpace/vojkanmilosavljevic. The piece for imbeciles of your sort is "Shades of Autumn". Put it as loud as you can and feel free to compare it with Thompson's shit.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
January 31st, 2011 at 4:12 pm
They aren't French. Just as Serb quislings are not Serb. I'm all too happy that the real France got to be World Champion yesterday.
They're either sold out or dedicated Zionists, just as Nazis were dedicated. By depriving yourself of France, you'd be depriving yourself of about anything God has created to make his creatures enjoy life.BHL, Finkielkraut and al are not French. Their country, assuming they're capable of having patriotic feelings, is Israel. When such morons are on your side, you should ask yourself questions.
Rad
January 31st, 2011 at 8:14 pm
Andy you are so right, America should not incite tribal feuds as was the case in Yugoslavia.
Vojkan Milosavljecic
January 31st, 2011 at 9:32 pm
They're fighting against corruption and occupiers. Whoever they're fighting for is therefore irrelevant. I don't care if they're Islamic Fundamentalists, Communists or whatever. Let them sort things by themselves.
Hrebeljanovic
January 31st, 2011 at 11:12 pm
Both of you made great points.
Only a psychopath could laugh at the barbaric genocide.
Hrebeljanovic
February 1st, 2011 at 12:10 am
Albanians in ex-Yu had much better health care than Albanians in Albania. So, where is your "logic" on this matter?
Indians and Chinese did not move to a foreign country and started to multiply like rabbits. Again, where is your "logic"?
"RACIST Serb propaganda" – are you accusing Google for being racist? Do you think that Google is owned by Serbs?
You would like to be "real and objective"? Start with the fact that nobody's candle burned till dawn.
Kosovo is Serbia.
B..
February 1st, 2011 at 4:44 am
Istrian volunteers aside, I've mentioned the fact of Nazi pathology going strong in your nation (having been its political and cultural MAINSTREAM for two decades now, ruling parties, presidents, high-level clergy and so on).
In your previous rant, you've mocked the need of Croatian Serbs to fight the genocidal evil that your country was preparing to repeat against them in 1991, WW2-style. Does it also amounts to "Serbian bullshit"? Let's talk some facts, there are plenty of data, hints, links and more. By this animal attempt to mockery, you've proven where your heart lies (with Pavelic, Boban, Francetic and that pack of nazi butchers)
B..
February 1st, 2011 at 4:45 am
I replied to Tomislav, of course..
B..
February 1st, 2011 at 5:20 am
OK, I referred to your comments from previous boards where you've put the international (hardly the pro-Serb) accounts and reports on organ-selling in Kosovo into question, only because Mr. Malic (a Serb!) dared to mention them.
My vocabulary was crass and disrespectful for the simple reason of having been inspired by your initial comment on this board (take a look at it now and you'll see for yourself). Normally, I would have preferred a civilized dialogue, wholeheartedly grasping the notion that Serbs and Albanians MUST work on finding some common ground in resolving their unfortunate conflicts, for the sake of the future generations, which deserve a better life and more dignity.
However, the platform that you're offering as fait accompli, "Kosovo is independent so let's move on", is hardly a viable platform. And I'm not saying this as an "Albanian-hater'' (I'm not, and the Albanians I've had a chance to meet in my life happened to be quite decent folks), neither I would grasp the ridiculous ethnic stereotypes which amount to nothing useful. Believe it or not, a good majority of Serbs would back me up on this, as well as on the notion that Kosovo is – and will always be – part of our country.
Besides, there are quite too many ethnic-territorial conflicts in this world, which doesn't mean that the participating nations should regard each other as angry packs of warring wolves. Criminals should be regarded as such, no matter their ethnicity.
But, the established (both Western and Albanian) attitude toward the Serbian claims over the nation's integrity (which Kosovo is an essential part of), as being the same as "hating Albanian people" is both ridiculous and pointless.
If Serbs, by some strange chain of historical circumstances, would take over Skadar/Skhoder and annex it to Serbia – based on historical presence in the past, and some international conferences held a hundred years ago or more – every self-respecting Albanian would loudly oppose it and consider it a temporary predicament, right?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 1st, 2011 at 9:20 am
As a matter of fact, when one gets a look into History, Skadar is definitely more Serb than Kosovo can ever be Albanian.
Since I don't feel like making multiple replies, I'll also add something about natality for our Albanian friend.
Yes, high natality is an instrument of ethnic cleansing. People aware that they won't be able to sustain a large family don't make herds of children.
Psychological pressure through threats of violence, outright violence like in the cases of Djordje Martinovic or Branka Djukic, you invented the notion of collective rape, burning stables, high natality, teaching children hatred were all parts of Albanian national policies in Kosovo.
You didn't pay for any of the public services you were provided with, my mother had her salary levied to pay for you.
Face it, your economy is based on trafficking: stupid bimbos from Eastern Europe aka white slaves, drugs from Afghanistan through Turkey, human organs from Serbs, Roma, Gorani and non-obedient Albanians.
Have you ever done anything constructive throughout History? However much I despise them, the Croats at least have Mohorovičić (he was from Istria though) and Pogorelić. Except Thaqi, who or what do you have?
Alban
February 1st, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Here is my reply:
"Albanians in ex-Yu had much better health care than Albanians in Albania. So, where is your "logic" on this matter"?
— It is a good point, and somewhat true. But, you would need to know abortion policies in Albania were VERY liberal at the times and the abortion rate very high, that balanced the very high fertility rates. Also, family planning programs by WHO and IPPF and policies were instituted widely.
Indians and Chinese did not move to a foreign country and started to multiply like rabbits. Again, where is your "logic"?
– Let us keep it civil, OK? No need to use "rabbits" to color the issue. I am not using any names on describing Serbs actions!! It just does not look good on you and your impartiality. Albanians did not move to Kosova. They lived there for generations, some historians would say even before the Serbs. This comment is definitely without any historical base.
"RACIST Serb propaganda" – are you accusing Google for being racist? Do you think that Google is owned by Serbs?
– Not sure what you mean here. What does Google have to do with anything? They are in the business of internet searching, and last time I checked they were not writing history or researching population issues.
You would like to be "real and objective"? Start with the fact that nobody's candle burned till dawn.
– Not sure here either. I do not get the metaphor. You might need to elaborate.
"Kosovo is Serbia."
– That is your opinion and maybe of others in Serbia. The way many others see it Kosova is the land were the majority are albanian, but there are also serbs, turks, roms and some other smaller minorities. A true multiethnic state, currently ruled by its own people. I know we may differ a lot here, but it will not hep if people insist Kosova will be part of Serbia or there is no other choice. The reality right now is that it is NOT part of Serbia and all of us, civilized people, living in Kosova or not (I do not) should be putting efforts not to breed war but peace. There must be a reason afterall we are all commenting on antiwar.com!
Alban
February 1st, 2011 at 4:12 pm
Mr.B,
I appreciate the constructive framework of your message, at last!
Not sure for who do you take me for, but I have NEVER ever commented on organ selling as of now!!!!!! Never!
For sure you either are plain wrong, or on purpose use this to somehow prove a certain point. If you need to know my opinion on this, here it is, plain and simple:
1) There are allegations that a horrible thing happened after the war ended. Serbs captured were sent in houses and their organs removed for later transplants, in a remote house in Burrel.
2) Essential to know is that as of now, nobody has provided any proof! But, IMPORTANTLY, even at the possibility that such a thing could have occurred, I would absolutely support the full independent investigation from an impartial body!!!
3) Inadequate protection of the witnesses could be one reason that no proofs have come out. EU should offer them protection and residence somewhere outside the region.
4) If this thing really happened, it is just as important for Albanians to know, as these people could be around. It means they could do it on their own people as well!!!!
5) Last, but not least……. I am physician myself! Like Malic, moved across the pond a couple of decades ago. From the medical point of view, harvesting organs for transplant in the remote village around Burrel is impossible! Ask any Serb urological surgeon for details! They must explain to you the cross matching process without which this cannot be done.
6) It is known that in armed conflicts there are atrocities committed by all sides, even though one side might have been the victim originally! There is no excuse for crimes!!! Criminals should be punished and made an example that these thing never happen again!
7) If you want to refer in the future to my opinion of this issue, there you have it. Please do not put words in my mouth otherwise. Let us continue in a constructive manner. I too know many Serbs and they too happen to be decent people. Let us, the reasonable ones, look to build bridges and hopefully our kids see each other as friendly neighbors, unlike their parents. Otherwise, it is YOUR fault and MY fault!
alban
February 1st, 2011 at 4:19 pm
Sorry Vojkan! You have lost your reason and logic once again!
Your last comment:
"Have you ever done anything constructive throughout History? However much I despise them, the Croats at least have Mohorovičić (he was from Istria though) and Pogorelić. Except Thaqi, who or what do you have?"
has brought the discussion to such a low level that I simply cannot put myself there. I cannot teach you history or educate you to converse logically! We are wasting space and time this way! If you have nothing constructive to say, better read and not vent!
bozh
February 1st, 2011 at 4:59 pm
about Z-4 Plan,
it had elements of a statehood. serbs in croatia were offered rights which exceeded rights granted to any minority.
croatia cld only accept it if it first rewrote own constitution and violated int'l laws regarding minority rights. it was not likely that necessary changes to the constitution wld pass in sabor.
milosevic accepted Z-4 Plan, but had said it's up to krajina serbs to accept or reject it. of course, he feared the Z-4 Plan as it cld have been implemented to vojvodina, sanjak, and kosovo.
tudjman had accepted it as a basis for further negotiation.
it also seems that both men knew that krajina leadership wld not accept it. according to peter galbraith, krajina leadership did not even read the proposal.
in the end, but sadly after losing 10k people, serbia and serbs did us an enormous favor; no chetnik will ever be allowed to live in or set foot in croatia.
i think that by now most serbs r glad to get rid of people who drag them into losing wars and territory. tnx
conumishu
February 1st, 2011 at 7:54 pm
I'm not depriving myself of that France of joie de vivre and savoir faire and soul and panache and songs or literature or wonderful scenery or refinement, or the France that said NO tu EUStates in 2005, for that matter. But their political, media and… the likes of those you mentioned… crust is despicable. With few exceptions.
paleo
February 1st, 2011 at 8:25 pm
(However much I despise them, the Croats at least have Mohorovičić (he was from Istria though) and Pogorelić.)
Pogorelic's mother was Serbian. I heard from my cousin, who is a Pogorelic fan and aspiring professional pianist, that Pogorelic associated his childhood in Serbia with bad memories of being overworked by his parents to succeed. Zagreb was a placid Mitteleuropa-type city of his adolescent conception.
Mohorovicic is not the only one. There were good writers as well as a few scientists, notably Ruzicka (who was part German and Czech as well) and Prelog.
Croats have a tendency of ignoring the Serb and Italian/Dalmatian role in their history and outright fabricating the identities of famous individuals. For instance, the composer of their (for us Serbs, odious) anthem, Josip Runjanin, was a Serb. Rudjer Boskovic was born to a Serb Catholic father and Italian mother and had nothing Croat about him. Likewise, the Croats want to purge the entire Italian-Serb symbiosis of Dubrovnik and turn it into a Croat city with a Croat history. It was never settled by Croat tribes, it was never part of the Croatian medieval kingdom, and many of its intellectuals (Catholics, to be sure), until the past 100 years considered themselves Serbs, e.g. Resetar, Valtazar Bogisic, etc.
Goran Ivanisevic, the tennis player, has a Montenegrin-Serb father. The "Croat" NBA basketball player Drazen Petrovic, related by blood to Serbian Dejan Bodiroga, was born to a certain Jovan and Biserka Petrovic. There's Severina Vuckovic, Jadranka Kosor, Arsen Dedic, etc. No to mention their ideologue of Croatian rabid nationalism and anti-Serb hatred, the half-Serb Ante Starcevic.
It seems to me a tragedy that the vast majority of the Dalmatian hinterland were Serbs who, when they descended down into the Italianate cities converted to Roman Catholicism. That would be fine, but the Roman Catholic church and Austria Hungary engineered a way to turn these people into Croats who would hate their Serb ancestors and Italian mentors. By pushing a Croat identity to southern Dalmatia (south of Split), which never existed in the historical sense, Austria-Hungary was able to simultaneously weaken Italian claims (Italy was reunifying at the time and thus seen as dangerous) while preventing any sort of pan-Serbian/pro-Yugoslav ideology that would favor alliance with newly independent Serbia and Montenegro. By blood and language these people were Serbs, by culture and religion deeply Italian influenced. Today they are rabid uncultured Croats who speak Serbian and call it Croatian.
paleo
February 1st, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Nikola the Serb:
The Croatian anti-fascists, for the most part, did not join the struggle out of moral outrage at the Ustase or some sort of allegiance to a united Yugoslav state. I am not saying that there were no Croats who did so, there was a small minority. The vast majority felt that pre-WWII Yugoslavia was a Serbian dictatorship (debatable as to whether it was or not) and that the Serbs basically had what was coming to them. That explains why there was not even an attempt to liberate Jasenovac, either by Tito or by Croat partisans indigenous to the area. Jasenovac and the entire Ustasa genocidal apparatus was the factory where Serbs would "get their due" for the assassination of Stjepan Radic and such like, while at the same time it would act as a sort of Grim Reaper to the Serbs that would drive them into joining the Partisans out of desperation.
So why did most Croat antifascists take up arms? Because they felt that Pavelic giving Dalmatia to Italy was treason against the "proper" borders that the Croatian state should have had. Had Pavelic's NDH included all of coastal Dalmatia, I can guarantee that Croats wouldn't account for even the ~10% or so they accounted in 1941 (in 1941, there were by many estimates 80+% Serb/Montenegrin, although for obvious reasons Tito and his clique were never as forthright about the 1941-42 ethnic composition as the 1944-45 ethnic composition).
To *prove* what I am saying (that Croat "antifascists" were fighting against Italy as historic competitor with Croatian ambitions vis-a-vis Dalmatia and NOT against Germany as invader of Yugoslavia, NOT against unjust capitalism, NOT against genocidal Croatian Ustashism and Jasenovac, etc.), I will present a clip of an interview with the Croatian historian Dusan Bilandzic. Listen to 1:41 – 5:17 and you will understand everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsX1N5XmFvQ
In the end, we Serbs were played good by our "Croatian brothers" who even while they joined Serb genocide victims in the Partisan units were fighting not for an orderly, non-genocidal state, but for a Croatian state that included littoral Dalmatia.
Tomislav
February 2nd, 2011 at 3:40 am
"By blood and language these people were Serbs, by culture and religion deeply Italian influenced. Today they are rabid uncultured Croats who speak Serbian and call it Croatian."
There was never any Serbdom in Dalmatia, except in diseased minds of Greater Serbian ideologists.I am not referring here to the Orthodox Vlachs who, during the nation-building process of the 19th century, became "Serbs". They can be considered Serbs.Here I am talking about the mythical, never existed "Catholic Serbs" of Dalmatia, one of the eternal obsessions of Serb hegemonists. The only exceptions to this rule were several intellectuals, patricians from Dubrovnik, who artificially accepted some kind of "Serbian identity" in 19th century, merely because the Principality of Serbia gave them some privileges. Among other things, Serbia acknowleged their titles of nobolity, which Austra-Hungary persistently refused to do. But nothing beside that..
What does this phrase "by blood" mean? Are you spreading some kind of Nazi ideology here? "Blood" is totally irrelevant in the formation of nations. What truly matters is culture, traditions, common memories, history, collective consciousness, religion etc. Only Third Reich style ideologists believe that nations are mechanically determined by "race" (ie. "blood"). What is some alleged Serbian "blood", Croatian "blood", German "blood", Czech "blood", or whatever, supposed to mean? Even if ancestors of South Dalmatians had been of some mythical "Serbian blood" (and they were not, there are no proofs for that), what relevance does it have or should it have? None at all.
Maybe it's only relevant to little Hitler-wannabes like Paleos, well disguised racial ideologists.
B..
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:02 am
@ Tomislav
The only Hitler-wannabe here is you, as shown by your animal mockery of Jasenovac above. The Vlach element in formation of all three major South Slavic, Serbian-speaking nations (Serbs, Croats, Bosnian Muslims) was discussed thoroughly on previous comment board, a week ago. Furthermore, reducing the Krajina Serbs on the Vlach-element (as it was something bad at he first place!) is, by itself, the CRUCIAL evidence of the VERY blood-and-soil-naziizm that you've displayed already here. Namely, 'the Serbs-are-lowly-Vlachs-who-don't-belong-here'-type of hysteria was the element which the father of Croatian genocide, Ante Starcevic, had based ALL his sick ideology on. Which led to Croatian pre-WW1 pogroms against Serbs in Croatian and Slavonian towns, the rabid pathology of Croatian crimes in Austro-Hungarian uniforms against Serbian civilians in both Croatia-Slavonia and occupied Serbia in WW1, and the sheer sadistic monstrosities of Hitlerite Independent State of Croatia in WW2 against Serbs, Jews and Roma, previously unseen in the known history of the humankind, by the the very enthusiasm of pure evil that the Ustashas delivered. Later, shoved under the carpet and so poorly disguised by 'Croatian anti-fascists' of Krajacic/Savka/Tripalo-type, and revived in all of its monstrosity with Tudjman, Mesic, Kuharic, Dalibor Brozovic and the rest of the bloodthirsty neo-Ustasha gang in the 1990s.
@ paleo
You are absolutely right about the Catholic Serbs, perhaps the finest and most progressive minds in the whole South Slavic intellectual life of the XIX century. Today, they are being shamelessly falsified by Tomislav-type of Croatian chauvinists (I've seen on the Croatian national TV recently that they refer to Medo Pucic, himself a proud Dubrovnik Serb as proved in his POEMS and ESSAYS, as a 'great Croatian poet' while the man had no Croatian bone in his body). The same goes for the official pseudohistorical discourse in today's Serbia, led by the NGO-funded, Jasenovac-denying, rabidly anti-Serb bunch of illiterate quislings. The fact that next to nobody in Serbia knows a thing about, say, Antun Fabris, the founder of Serbian Journalist Society, a brave young truth-teller who DIED for his sense of Serbdom in Austrian dungeon in Dubrovnik, is telling enough. Pretty much the same goes for Pero Budmani, Antun Pugliese, Lujo Bakotic, Marko Car, Lujo Vojnovic,Stjepan Kobasica… the finest among the Serbian intellectuals back then. In case you haven't read it yet, Bakotic "Serbs in Dalmatia", is a touching first-hand account of the Serbian Dalmatian intellectual and political circle united in brotherhood and freedom (both Orthodox and Catholic Serbs), that ceased to exist almost a hundred years ago. Bakotic wrote extensively in the book about the Croatian-Serbian political relations in Dalmatia which, while often heated, presented a viable alternative to the Starcevicesque fascism that later poisoned the well (as illustrated by Tomislavs on this world, at this board and elsewhere). Rocco Arneri and Miho Klaic (to name just a few), while unquestionably Croatian nationalists of XIX century-type, had had enough wisdom to maintain the relations with their Serbian counterparts (sometimes opponents, sometimes allies, as the politics generally tends to direct) in gentlemanly manner. Klaic's own eulogy to Sava Bjelanovic (a Serbian political leader in Dalmatia) speaks volumes on that account.
As for Starcevic, he was not only a half-Serb (Milica Bogdan, his mother), but the father's side of the family as well – I've recently found out that the Starcevics of Lika had been converted into Roman Catholicism and subsequently Croatianized only a few generation before Ante was born. A self-hater in the lowest and most visible form.
@Tomislav
Please, be more inventive in the future. This is not the B92 or Pescanik comment-board, where your Ustasha-denying fairytales would be welcomed by the sheer quisling humility of Serbian auto-chauvinists. Your rants and lies are easily disproved here, since the most of us happen to be fairly acquainted with the Balkan-related matter. The feeling you must be having when the unspeakable crimes of Ustashas are mentioned, as well as the ugly fact that your country is being publicly nazi as we speak, should not inspire you to childishly shout around "it is all lie! never! Serbs lie! damn Vlachs!". If you can compose yourself enough to have a civilized conversation, no one in his right mind would be rubbing you 'collective guilt' on the nose. But, DENYING the Ustasha atrocities and the nazi element in Croatian politics is just plain evil, and I don't think anyone's gonna have it. Or, as the poet immortally put it a while ago:
Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
You’d know what a drag it is
To see you
Tomislav
February 2nd, 2011 at 9:38 am
"America should stay out of these tribal fueds."
Why don't you tell that to the some of the Serbophile American Palaeoconservatives, who persist in their boring lamentations about "poor Serbia" that, according to them, suffered injustice from the West? They seem to be quite obsessed with Balkan tribal feuds, which manifests itself, in their particular case, as rooting for one tribe, a tribe which they see as centuries-long defender of "European Christendom against Islam", an American ally in both world wars and similar nostalgic Romantic bullshit.
Tomislav
February 2nd, 2011 at 10:42 am
Bravo, Paleo and B.! Don't give up in your Hitler-like search for pure Serbian "blood". Blut und Boden, jawohl! Sieg heil Serbien!
B..
February 2nd, 2011 at 12:00 pm
@ Tomislav
The ONLY one who searched for "Blut und Boden" was YOU (not quite unlike your Ustasha predecessors; assuming that you're aware of the fact that Jasenovac denial amounts to a crime in many countries with different legislatures than your nazi, Pavelic-celebrating, Thompson-listening rat-hole).
If you dare to mention the nazi salute EVER AGAIN in speaking to me (whose family was DECIMATED by nazis), you'll be VERY seriously reported. The arguments were offered and presented in clear manner, and unless you are capable of replying in civilized way, you have every right to shut up.
B..
February 2nd, 2011 at 12:25 pm
@ Tomislav
"an American ally in both world wars and similar nostalgic Romantic bullshit"
For you, it is a 'romantic bullshit', since you cherish the memories of mass-murdering Ustasha who joined Hitler on Eastern front. The fact that both Serbs and Americans fought on the better sides of both world wars is relevant for the history of their relations, and its betrayal is to be lamented
B..
February 2nd, 2011 at 12:35 pm
PS
And, this lousily-camouflaged attempt of Tomislav to appear more respectful and civilized (after having been caught in BLATANT denial of nazi and ustasha crimes in WW2) is, basically, STOLEN from Paleo, whom Tomislav is trying to discredit now, look for yourselves, the previous comment board:
http://original.antiwar.com/malic/2011/01/14/dama…
Paleo explained to a reader who tried to put some ethnic mythologies as a serious argument (bozh, if I'm not mistaken) that counting anyone's origins is both impolite, and irrelevant. And pointless, of course. The "Vlach"-argument offered here by Tomislav, is just an old chauvinist Croatian fascist thing, meant to insult the Serbs (as if having the old-Balkan Wallachian element in someone's origin amounts to anything outside their sick nazi, gene-counting little minds)
B..
February 2nd, 2011 at 1:54 pm
PS
Besides – American meddling in the Balkan affairs was NOT promotred by either "Serbophile paleo-conservatives", antiwar and non-establishmentarian Left or antiwar libertarians. I list the groups in contemporary American intellectual life whose members have shown more sane approach to the Balkan matters (and bore the burden of accusations of being "Serbophile" by the PR-groups funded with some serious money from the chauvinist alikes of Tomislav). However, neither the paleos and libertarians, nor the Old Leftists could have possibly had a ZILCH of influence onto the Washington imperialistic agenda in the 1990s. This very site was founded in opposition to the sadist Clinton's bombings of Bosnian Serb civilian targets in 1995.
Retired generals from Virginia, and Clintonite think-tanks, however, were CRUCIAL in delivering that agenda, so Tomislav's fascist statelet was pretty much founded with their help. Remember Peter Galbright on Ustasha tank in Knin in the 1995. And Holbrooke's words about Croatian 1990s neo-Ustasha as "mad dogs in the US service".
bozh
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:40 pm
i think i have also stated on antiwar that i am against all kinds of supremacism. i often say following on sites like truthdig, ICH, D.V. : i spurn ethnic, personal, cult, cultural, religious, and personal supremacism.
this means i condemn also croatinism; and especially, if it comes in value ahead of basic humanness
regarding religions-cults, i strongly condemn their claims to infallibility and godliness and not just s'mhow each being the best or more humane than any other.
such thinking appears extremely perilous!
thus, when i speak of wallachs and their ancestral home wallachia [western rumania] i do not lead anyone to conclude anything about this people.
i have concluded wallachs r ok.
i merely suggest that wallachs fled turkish occupation of their land and spread thru serbia to bosnia and croatia; many of which had been assimilated by serbs; some possibly even by croats.
some of these people may still live in croatia, judging by the fact some say: i am orthodox [and not serb], they r other orthodox croats or are wallachs
i understand that wallachia does not exists any longer. this is what a rumanian had told me, anyway.
today serbs constitute about 4.4% of croat pop. down a lot from prewar 11.7%.
Many serbs do not want to ever live in croatia. when 21th corpus, consisting of 5k fighters and 5k civilians surrendered to croat army on aug 7, '95, agreement included for their right to stay in croatia or leave for serbia.
only a few serbs chose to remain in croatia; moving in with relatives living in croat'n cities or towns.
btw, serbs of sibenik had to swear an oath of allegiance to croatia in '91 in order to remain in town. all those serbs who held high positions were laid off regardless whether they swore an oath.
compare to this how canada and u.s. treated very loyal japanese. none was trusted; all were sent to camps; their possession taken.tnx
paleo
February 2nd, 2011 at 2:56 pm
"By blood" in the same sense that Croatian Serbs were "really" Vlachs in your rabid nationalist ideology. It's you Croats who seem to be obsessed with the alleged Vlach ancestry of Serbs. Why would that even matter if those people speak Serbian, have Serbian names, celebrate Serbian holidays, and consider themselves Serbs? I cannot tell that someone is a Croatian Serb vs. a Bosnian Serb vs. a Serbian Serb based on this so-called "true Vlach" identity. Can you?
Unfortunately, you've never provided genetic or linguistic data to back up this silly contention. The language the Croatian Serbs speak is the same as the language of the Serbs in northern Bosnia, in eastern Bosnia, in Herzegovina, in Montenegro, and in western Serbia.
Serbs in Dalmatia is not a myth. Porphyrogenitus talks about Serbs south of the Cetina River from the arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans. Did these people just disappear? No. Under Dalmatian-Italian influence, they converted to Roman Catholicism rather than Eastern Orthodoxy. However, their language remained the same as that of their Orthodox brethren right next door in Herzegovina, Montenegro, etc. It is called the Eastern Herzegovina dialect. It originated amongst the Serbs of eastern Herzegovina. As Serbs converted to Islam, it became a language of the "Bosnian Muslims" as well, and as Serb refugees fled the Turks into what is today Croatia, it was also imported into Croatia. The majority of people who speak this language natively are Serbs, followed by a substantial Muslim minority. There are very few Croats who natively speak this language (not counting Catholic Serbs in Dubrovnik). It is to your shame that your literary language is based on a dialect spoken originally by Serbs in eastern Herzegovina and brought into "lijepa nasa" only several hundred years ago (I'm not counting Dubrovnik and the southern littoral because it was never Croat in history, only Catholic Serb). Proud people you are to steal another's language and call it your own. Whatever happened to Chakavian and Kajkavian (yes, the Slovenian-Croat mishmash you also claim to be "purely Croatian")? The language of Gundulic and of the "Croats" of Dubrovnik was completely intelligible with the language of Sarajevo and Belgrade and Kragujevac even 500 years ago. It was NOT intelligible with the language of Zagreb or Rijeka.
No need to reply, I have no interest in conversing with Ustasha dogs. Go sing your Thompson songs celebrating Jasenovac. Jasenovac is the crowning achievement of Croatian culture, it is what makes you unique as a people. Most of the stuff that had to do with poetry, art, science, etc. was actually done by Serbs and Italians and Germans living in "Croatia" anyway.
Tomislav
February 2nd, 2011 at 3:54 pm
I didn't say Serbs from Croatia were Vlachs. I said that probably they descend from some Vlach populations, but in the course of nation-building, during 19th century (and even before) became Serbs. So I say they are Serbs. That's finished story.
Unlike you, who keep on calling "Serbs" people who don't consider themselves to be Serbs and don't want to have anything in common with Serbdom, like Croats from Dubrovnik area and Southern Dalmatia. You can bring all the so-called alleged "proofs", be it historical, linguistic or "racial" (since you mentioned "blood"), it is to no avail: you won't convince any of those Croats that they are in fact Serbs and that they should revert to their alleged roots. Because, even if your "proofs" were, conditionally speaking "valid", it would have no meaning because nations are not created in such deterministic fashion, in a way that somebody from the outside "objectively" determines who belongs to which nation. But it seems (some) Serbs have great difficulty to understand that. In fact, so long as you and the likes of you blather your nonsense on the internet (to vent some deep-seated frsutrations, or what?), it's irrelevant and harmless. The problem arises when some Serbs try to impose their version of "istorija" and "istina" on others, I mean, to impose by force, in cases when they have the means to do so. There was one so-called country where Serbs wanted to shove their version of "truth" down everyone else's throat: it was the royal Yugoslavia (1918-1941). And the ustasha movement and certain excesses committed by the ustasha regime against Serbs (1941-45) were a reaction to the Serb terror and oppression between 1918 and 1941. That's where insistance on imposing your own "istorija" and mythomania leads.
Tomislav
February 2nd, 2011 at 4:09 pm
It's obviously irrelevant. You only think it should be relevant. But that's merely your subjective opinion which doesn't oblige anyone, let alone policy-makers in Washington.
Just because Serbs were once someone's allies, it means Serbs can for ever do whatever they want and the ally in question should unquestionably back them? That's extremely stupid thinking, but very widespread among Serbs. Situations change, cicumstances change, alliances too. Someone who was once on the better side, can some other time end up on the worse side (or vice versa).
Tomislav
February 2nd, 2011 at 4:12 pm
Oh, I see, defeat ("Operation Storm") hurts, so let's invent some conspiracy theories. Croats (and Serbs too, I guess) have a proverb: Tko gubi, ima se pravo ljutiti. (The one who is on the losing side, has the right to be angry).
B..
February 2nd, 2011 at 5:49 pm
Tomislav:
"and certain excesses committed by the ustasha regime against Serbs (1941-45)"
The brutal, sadistic, bloodthirsty genocide by rabid Hitlerite dogs that resulted in most horrible crimes UNSEEN in the human history prior and since and in destruction of THREE historical communities (Serbian, Jewish and Roma) amounts to no more than the CERTAIN excesses in your psychopathic mass-murdering mind? You nazi animal.
I urge EVERY decent human being on this thread to report this nazi sadist; it is below the basic human dignity to share the virtual space with such monster.
End of discussion.
B..
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:04 pm
You've lost the right to expect a reply. After describing the nazi genocide committed by your bloodthirsty ustasha predecessors as a mere 'excess', I doubt you're a human being at all, sick butcher. I'll just wait and see for how long is your Holocaust-denying orgy going to be ignored by the administrators of this site (hopefully, not too long after they find out the inhuman monstrosities you've posted, you sick nazi vermin)
B..
February 2nd, 2011 at 6:09 pm
PS Again, I suggest EVERY decent participant on this thread to report this sicko. If thios was the 1941, he would be slaughtering civilians in Jasenovac, because THAT is the 'ideology' he's vomiting OPENLY. A decent man is NOT expected to participate in a discussion whose participant (this sicko tomislav) is DEFENDING the Hitler-Pavelic pack of beasts and the genocide they've committed during the WW2 against Serbs, Jews and Roma.
Suvorov
February 2nd, 2011 at 7:45 pm
paleo,
Speaking of Ivo Pogorelic, are you familiar with this gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG6sqH5pueE
First of all, I love how the interviewer asks him whether he is a Serb as if it were a crime. But what is even better is that Pogorelic answers with an emphatic "Nooooooooooo!" And he talks about "Vukovar catastrophe", but doesn't mention operations Flash and Storm, which apparently he doesn't consider to be catastophes. Btw, this interview was given during the bombing of Serbia in 1999.
Just shows that this mental illness affects even the best of them.
Tomislav
February 3rd, 2011 at 5:00 am
"…if you dare to mention the nazi salute EVER AGAIN in speaking to me (whose family was DECIMATED by nazis…blah blah blah"
I don't give a damn for your personal sensitivities, you little Serbo-Nazi.
Tomislav
February 3rd, 2011 at 5:50 am
What happened to you? Have your braincells also been "decimated" at certain point in life?
paleo
February 3rd, 2011 at 6:03 am
Thank you Suvorov for this true gem. I am debating whether to forward this to my Pogorelic-obsessed cousin. This will probably break her heart a bit. At least he doesn't lie about his mother's origins. This just illustrates how many prominent "Croats" are in fact half-Serbs and they must prove their Croathood through denial of their Serb roots and even outright hatred a la Ivanisevic and Starcevic. A sick nation.
Tomislav
February 3rd, 2011 at 7:13 am
More than half of Serbia are Vlachs (Cincars), Greeks and, especially, Turks, ie. their descendants. If we are to go by your Nazistoid obsession with "blood" and ethnic origin, we may say that the obsessive Serbian Islamophobia and Turkophobia derives from Serbs trying to prove they have "nothing to do with Turks".
RAD
February 3rd, 2011 at 12:50 pm
One very important detail is omitted and I want to mention here:
The Serbs in Croatia during NDH were killed only because they
were Eastern Orthodox . Croatia is 'Antimurale Christianitatis' as
is Poland. There is much historical material on the subject if
someone wanted to research. Also, see the census 1706;
"Popis stanovnistva Like i Krbave" by Karl Kaser. The ustashas
theories are blatantly anti- Serb-Orthodox, Almost impossible to separate one from the other. There is a personal history on the subject: Convert to Catholicism or die.
Suvorov
February 3rd, 2011 at 2:14 pm
paleo,
Yes, it sometimes feels cruel to shatter someone's illusions, but ultimately it the truth that sets people free. As to the ustasha mindset, I think it was Srdja Trifkovic (perhaps he wasn't the first one) who pointed out that hating Serbs and everything Serbian is the defining feature of Croatness. Perhaps that stems from identity crisis. For if you were to take away their papist indoctrination, servility to the West (German-speaking world in particular) and extra "j"'s in their dialect, what would remain of their identity?
Hrebeljanovic
February 3rd, 2011 at 7:11 pm
And I don't give a damn about yours, you big Croatian Nazi psychopath.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 4th, 2011 at 4:42 am
So, Tomislav, are you capable of coping with truth? You who use the name of a mythical Croat king as pseudo, we both know it's not your real name, and we both know that History back then, without material proof, can only be considered as mythology.
Thank you B.. :)
Tomislav
February 4th, 2011 at 5:41 am
Well, i wasn't snivelling about my family having been "decimated", so there is here, from my side, nothing you could not-give-a-damn-about. Sentimental moralizing, snivelling, victimology, tales of "suffering" and the like are Serb specialty.
Tomislav
February 4th, 2011 at 5:45 am
What kind of truth am I not capable of coping? I don't know what you mean by that, but I can guess that concept of truth, accoording to you, equals Serb megalomaniac, schizophrenic hallucinations?
bozh
February 4th, 2011 at 6:28 am
some serbs in croatia, such as vice-president, slobodan uzelac, and serbs elsewhere r asking: Hey, what happened to croat'n serbs since mid '90?
such thinkers r not dwelling on actual crimes committed by both sides, but on political games played by politicians.
i do not think we will ever find out the truth. most of what politicians or leaders said most likely had not been recorded.
we can, tho, guess what croat'n govt and most croat'ns wanted: get rid of most serbs from croat'n countriside.
the dice was cast: there will never be peace in croatia as long serb villagers r led by veljko dzakula. martic, milisav sekulic, babic, mile novakovic, drazho kovacevic, borislav mikelic, et al.
each of one of them have proclaimed from rooftop that croatian people r genocidal.
they said that croatia is a binat'l state with serb nation [volk, if u will] having equal rights as a croat'n nation.
now can anyone imagine leaders of a nation calling another nation genocidal and still want to live with this genocidal nation in peace?
this fact might explain why seemingly croat'n serbs were abandoned in aug '95 by both the serbs of serbia and bosnia.
it now came to light that karadzic and tudjman negotiated in secret. karadzic needed fuel; croatia delivered it but gotten from karadzic the promise that bosnian serbs wld not intervene in operation "Oluja".
now we learn that croats did not have an agreement with serbia regarding it staying out of looming war.
general petar stipetic is telling us now that croatia had in e.slavonia, in an operation called "Zid", deployed 55k soldiers, just in case serbia wld have invaded croatia once again since '90.
previously it had been thought, that tudjman and milosevic had an agreement regarding the fate of croat'n serbs.
it shld be noted that also urban serbs were in secret wishing the serb leaders i listed above wld disappear. tnx
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 4th, 2011 at 7:46 am
Are you capable to back with rational arguments the "megalomaniac" and "schizophrenic" name calling?
I sign with my real name, and with a link, you sign with the name of a Croatian myth, not your real name, and with no link. So, between you and me, who's the megalomaniac schizophrenic of the two of us?
Tomislav
February 4th, 2011 at 8:12 am
It's ideas and concepts that matter here, not my person or yours.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 4th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
Just thank you for that racist rant. You and bozh truly are gems.
As we say in France, "chassez le naturel, il revient au galop".
You are nazis and you just can't help it. Unfortunately for you, there are far more blue eyed blond supposedly "Aryan" people among Serbs than there are among you. Let's count them. I inherited my father's Montenegrin features, but all my mother's lineage is made of blue/green eyed blonds. Not that it is anything meaningful. Just to prove your theories are imbecilic.
Idiot, without Greeks, there would be no European civilisation. But since you pretend to descend from Persians, is Alexander a thorn in your eye?
Poor bozh and his schizophrenia about his origins.
You two are just incapable to have a coherent stance.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 4th, 2011 at 6:52 pm
They are not French. They are Israeli firsters. Like in the USSA. Providing they're capable of having any sort of patriotic feeling. For my part, I think they're ideology enamored morons. They're just using Israel.
Yes, the MSM in France manages to be even worse than that in the US, that's no small feat. But there are efforts…
And yes, Polanski is free. It p*ss*s off the most of us, and most of us would like to castrate the idiot in public…
Rad
February 4th, 2011 at 9:51 pm
Vojkan, I was the witness how Croats cleansed Istria of Italians in 1947. I have to say, that so much maligned "Serbo-Yugoslavia"
was very generous with Croats at expenses of the Serbs.
'Twice cleansed from Croatia'
Hrebeljanovic
February 4th, 2011 at 10:43 pm
Xa-xa.
"Sentimental moralizing, snivelling, victimology, tales of "suffering" and the like are Serb specialty. "
… is another lame attempt at covering up the Genocide Croats committed against Serbs during Independent State of Croatia(1941 – 1945) and on.
No decimated Serb families = no Genocide.
Xa-xa.
Tomislav
February 5th, 2011 at 4:21 am
OK, Whine on, you and some of your fellow Serbs. But nobody is listening and nobody cares.
Tomislav
February 5th, 2011 at 4:31 am
You are obviously retarded or just you are pretending to be retarded? I personally don't care about "blood", "race", "ethnic origins" and the like. But Serbs are obsessed with that principle when it comes down to "discredit" other nations. Therefrom come various accounts about half of Croatia being "Catholicized Serbs" and similar hallucinating nonsense. Some Croats would be Serbs, according to such stories, because of their "origins", their "blood", they are Serbs whether they like it or not. Now what's that if not racism? I just said that, according to that principle, if it would be applied to Serbia, we could say that half of Serbia are Vlachs, Greeks and Turks. And I have personally nothing against any of those people. Racism in any form is stupidity.
But I guess you misunderstood the whole thing because (many) Serbs seem to be people with total lack of ability of self-reflection or self-criticism.
eric siverson
February 5th, 2011 at 8:22 pm
United States wants to intervene in Egypt so Egypt does not get torn apart . Just who decides in the United States other than the local people from the troubled country . When its more polically correct or benificial to tear a country apart or try help keep it together . In Yugoslavia we trained rebel terrorists , bombed 4 coutries ,and finally Bombed Serbia heavier than we bombed Germany during WW2 for seventy-eight days . All to insure the demize of Yugoslavia . Now in Iraq and Egypt we say we want to keep the country together . I understand a lot of people can be happier with a little seperation . I actually believe The United States people would much happier if we could seperate the central states from the coastal states . I believe we have very differant goals and idea's of goverenment . We still would be three of the wealthiest countries and even three of the larger countries . We could cooperate and work together or not be forced to participate if we did not want too . This would be more freedom for all of us .
Hrebeljanovic
February 5th, 2011 at 9:28 pm
I'll continue to laugh at your perverted denials, and you can continue to be sick to your head.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 6th, 2011 at 3:34 am
You are the one who raised the subject of ethnic origins. You didn't say "could be", you said "are", in a dismissive way. I just pointed that we Serbs definitely have a more diverse genome than you Croats have. We could argue until the end of times. I could discourse about why your comment revealed your racism. But then, it's so obvious. Therefore why waste time?
Emilyrose
February 6th, 2011 at 6:01 am
Glad to see the Serbs are waking up and getting a bit of fire in their collective bellies.
It has been nauseating watching so many collaborating with those who bombed their nation and killed their peoples. Selling their collective souls to the devil in return for enslavement within the EUSSR and under the dual puppeteers of Washington and Tel Aviv.
Go for it Nicolic.
May your God be with you as so many of us to have remained true to Serbia and its rights and need for justice will be.
bozh
February 6th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
conflict between croat'ns and serbs arose in 19th century. on one side were ?all croats and on the other side at least 50% of croatian, 90% of bosnian, and 50% or serbian serbs.
thus, regarding the telos of serbs in conflict with all croatians, it had nothing to do what ensued thereafter.
it was always the endgoal that solely mattered and not ever how many serbs wld surely die let alone how many and how hated albanians, magyars, muslims, macedonians, and croats wld also die or be expelled.
more hatred for and fear of croats had been expressed-told, than any other ethnos, only because they represented the biggest obstacle to creation of greater serbia with no alien pop.
by rejecting Z- 4 plan, what croats knew all along had been confirmed; nevertheless, even today strongly denied by those who tried to carry out expulsion-murder of all aliens from their 'holy lands'.
i think europe had been convinced of it also. tnx
Rad
February 6th, 2011 at 6:07 pm
Bozidare,You constantly talk about what Serbs wanted/planned, etc.
But Croats realized what few nations succeeded – TWO GENOCIDES in
one single century against their own citizens in Croatia: 1941-1945
and 1991-1995 grace to old friends Germans and Vatican. You can't
destroy all world's archives. You are and always have been "dogs of war".
And I will not go here in your obsessions with the Serbs/Vlachs. Who of
these people really deserve to be killed in Jasenovac?
bozh
February 6th, 2011 at 6:52 pm
rad,
yes, according to two serb demographers, bogoljub kocovic and vladeta vuckovic, about 320 k serbs perished from all causes in ww2.
this is also the view of a croat demographer, vladimir zherjavic, et al.
during the serb invasion of bosnia in '92-95, 102k bosnian perished according to findings by icty.
of that number, 70 k muslims died; of which more than half were noncombatants.
serbs lost 25 k people; of which majority were serb soldiers.
2.2 mn bosnians were forcefully expelled. once again, most were bosniaks.
bosniaks claim 142 k of their people were slain.
actually, if i remember correctly, i have said only a few times that serb end goal was set up of greater serbia at any price but have not connected it to the origin of the idea nor when-why the idea arose.
thus, my post, to which u refer is a quite a novelty.
the idea arose only after we fought and bled for centuries to oust turks from europe. had we known what serbs wld do to us, we shld have fought with turks to ensure u do not harm ur neighbors.
however, better late than ever.
finally, a much greater power is dealing with chetniks and their dream of greater serbia! it is not gonna happen, i think.
in fact, sanjak and vojvodina may get a Z- 4 Plan-like autonomy; i.e., elements of statehood!
paleo
February 6th, 2011 at 8:39 pm
Let me remind the forum that Zerjavic claimed the following about Bosnian war casualties (from Wikipedia):
"According to investigations of Vladimir Žerjavić, there were 220,000 victims in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the Bosnian war of 1992–95, of which 160,000 were Bosniaks, 30,000 Croats and 25,000 Serbs.[1]"
According to the newest figures, about 100,000 people died in Bosnia, with a figure of ~70,000 Muslims, ~25,000 Serbs, and ~5,000 Croats.
Had Zerjavic inflated the the casualties across all ethnic groups, this might have been excused by supposing that his statistical methods are inaccurate. At any rate, at this point, we would have to reject out of hand Zerjavic's statistics as such and whatever they say about WWII.
However, Zerjavic did not make an error across the board. He inflated Croat victims by a factor of 6, he inflated Muslim victims by a factor of more than 2, and he did not inflate Serb victims by any factor at all. Which means that either his data is not sourced evenly (indicating methodological problems or biases, that would discredit his research) or that he had an animus against a particular group, i.e. the Serbs. So he fit the data and the statistics to his thesis: the Serbs are criminals and the Croats and Muslims are victims. He is worthless as a source regarding WWII victims or 1991-1995 victims.
Zerjavic, Kocovic, and all these "statisticians" have been utterly discredited when it comes to Jasenovac and all the rest. We will never know the real figures regarding Jasenovac, yet all the contemporaneous sources – the Ustashe sources (the Ustashe weren't ashamed of Jasenovac at all), the German Nazi sources, and the Italian sources – indicate that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered at the Jasenovac complex of camps and killing fields (Brocice, Mlaka, Ciglana, Granik, Ustice, Krapje, Kozara, Stara Gradiska, and Donja Gradina). Jewish records indicate that 20-30K were murdered there. Roma records are very weak and poorly organized but seem to indicate that tens of thousands were murdered at Jasenovac. The vast majority of the remainder – hundreds of thousands – were Serbs.
Bozh and Tomislav, not Zerjavic, not Pavelic, not Tudjman nor Mesic nor even the very devil himself, can help you out of this one. Your nation of cutthroats and liars will answer to God some day for this.
paleo
February 6th, 2011 at 10:02 pm
It's really quite sad for the Croats that they consider themselves the vanguard of "the West," the Antemurale Christianitis fighting off the "barbaric" and "heretic" and "schismatic" Orthodox and Muslim: they have nothing to show for it. They developed so close to Italy, to Austria, to Hungary even, and yet they absorbed so little of what makes us celebrate those cultures. Venice is right next door: who is the Croat Vivaldi or Titian or Tintoretto? Vienna is just to the north: who is the Croat Mozart or Schubert or Boltzmann? They are so proud to be part of the so-called West because they use an alphabet imported from Italy, because they are Roman Catholic, because their churches are built in a Gothic fashion rather than a Byzantine one. But really, if they had never existed, European history and culture would have looked just the same.
So what is it that they are so proud of? Is it the beautiful Dalmatian cities like Zara and Fiume and Sebenico and Ragusa and Spalato, which were built by Dalmatian Latins (later culturally Italians), not by Croats? Is it the Marian shrine at Medjugorje just miles away from the Prebilovci pits into which hundreds of Serb Orthodox women and children were murdered in 1941? Is it their loyalty to Hitler and their ingenuity in making death camps just for children in Jastrebarsko, something even their German mentors never invented?
They are constantly harping on how they are the West, they are the "last wall of Europe," they fawn after Germany, they are supposedly the children of "central European [German]" culture yet I don't know who their Schillers and Goethes and Beethovens and Gauss' and Eulers and Schrodingers and Schuberts are. But I do know who their Hitler was. And I do know what their Auschwitz was. They were certainly well matched with the Germans in that regard, but in none other.
To be sure, the Serbs are no big players in Europe either, but they never claimed to be. They are just a small people who want to rule themselves, to determine their own destiny, and not be ruled by invading brutal empires from the outside, or by their brutal local proxies (they know who they are) who are only too eager to murder and pillage at the behest of their imperial masters.
What is more, they can point to 400 years of involuntary rule by a vicious and extremely backward Islamic empire in which they had no part or say and that humiliated, deprived, exploited, tortured, killed, expelled, and abused them, more or less, non-stop, century after century. Their smartest children were stolen and taken to Istanbul and turned into loyal Muslim servants of the Ottomans. Their comeliest girls were raped and dragged into harems. Their churches were desecrated and demolished and turned into mosques. Their patron saint's relics were exhumed and torched in Belgrade. They resisted with rebellion after rebellion and each was brutally crushed with fresh waves of humiliations and atrocities. They were not alone in this: Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Bulgarians, Christian Arabs, Wallachians (the ones in Romania, not the ones Croats obsess over) and Christian Albanians suffered the same, some even worse. The Armenians suffered the worst, in the end.
And those Serbs who wanted a better life fled north and west into the relative (yes, that is a key point, because it was only relative) ease of the Austrian empire. And in this empire, they defended the border from that backward, abusive, aggressive Ottoman empire for century after century. And in that way they made their own very real contribution towards Vienna being a place where Beethoven could write his symphonies rather than a second Constantinople with sultans and harems and a grand mosque whose walls predate the very existence of Islam.
paleo
February 6th, 2011 at 10:02 pm
continued:
And so, while Beethoven was writing symphonies in Vienna, the Turks were decapitating Serbs in Nis and packing their heads into plaster to build a tower of skulls. So we Serbs have our excuses as to why we are nearer the back than the front of the train that we might call “European civilization.” But what is the Croats’ excuse? Over time the culture of Vienna rubbed off on the other peoples of the empire: Czechs, Hungarians, Poles, etc. and so we had Liszt, and Dvorak, and Jansky, and Bolyai. But where are the Croats (or, for that matter, Slovenes)? What is their great contribution to European civilization or international science? What is their excuse? For 900 years they lived docilely under Hungarian, Austrian, and Venetian rule, free to absorb and emulate and expand upon these cultures, yet never raising a murmur until 1918 when they thought they might face Italian-Hungarian rule and reparations for being on the losing side in WWI. Then they elegantly catapulted themselves into Yugoslavia, piggybacking on a victorious Serbia which lost 25% of her population in WWI, and used that country to build up territory that never belonged to them at the expense of others: Dalmatia, Slavonia, Istria, Maribor, Trieste (attempted but failed), etc.
I have to mention that I was rather surprised that Tomislav was using the alleged Vlach or Greek origins of some Serbs as terms of abuse. These petty fools have apparently been so tutored by their Catholic priests that Orthodoxy is intellectually and morally bankrupt that they really think themselves superior to all Orthodox civilization. I have more than once heard utterly idiotic comments from Croat nationalists not only against Greeks but against Russians as well. It would be quite a waste of time to enumerate the seminal contributions of these two Orthodox Christian nations in the realms of art, literature, science, philosophy, mathematics, and other realms of human knowledge and creativity. One thing I do know is that without the Greeks or the Russians European civilization, European history, and indeed world history would look very different (yes, my Croat friends, both Greece and Russia are located to the east of Zagreb, Vienna, and Berlin). Without the Croats, the only things we would lack are neckties and Jasenovac.
paleo
February 6th, 2011 at 10:14 pm
It's really quite sad for the Croats that they consider themselves the vanguard of "the West," the Antemurale Christianitis fighting off the "barbaric" and "heretic" and "schismatic" Orthodox and Muslim: they have nothing to show for it. They developed so close to Italy, to Austria, to Hungary even, and yet they absorbed so little of what makes us celebrate those cultures. Venice is right next door: who is the Croat Vivaldi or Titian or Tintoretto? Vienna is just to the north: who is the Croat Mozart or Schubert or Boltzmann? They are so proud to be part of the so-called West because they use an alphabet imported from Italy, because they are Roman Catholic, because their churches are built in a Gothic fashion rather than a Byzantine one. But really, if they had never existed, European history and culture would have looked just the same.
So what is it that they are so proud of? Is it the beautiful Dalmatian cities like Zara and Fiume and Sebenico and Ragusa and Spalato, which were built by Dalmatian Latins (later culturally Italians), not by Croats? Is it the Marian shrine at Medjugorje just miles away from the Prebilovci pits into which hundreds of Serb Orthodox women and children were murdered in 1941? Is it their loyalty to Hitler and their ingenuity in making death camps just for children in Jastrebarsko, something even their German mentors never invented?
They are constantly harping on how they are the West, they are the "last wall of Europe," they fawn after Germany, they are supposedly the children of "central European [German]" culture yet I don't know who their Schillers and Goethes and Beethovens and Gauss' and Eulers and Schrodingers and Schuberts are. But I do know who their Hitler was. And I do know what their Auschwitz was. They were certainly well matched with the Germans in that regard, but in none other.
To be sure, the Serbs are no big players in Europe either, but they never claimed to be. They are just a small people who want to rule themselves, to determine their own destiny, and not be ruled by invading brutal empires from the outside, or by their brutal local proxies (they know who they are) who are only too eager to murder and pillage at the behest of their imperial masters.
What is more, they can point to 400 years of involuntary rule by a vicious and extremely backward Islamic empire in which they had no part or say and that humiliated, deprived, exploited, tortured, killed, expelled, and abused them, more or less, non-stop, century after century. Their smartest children were stolen and taken to Istanbul and turned into loyal Muslim servants of the Ottomans. Their comeliest girls were raped and dragged into harems. Their churches were desecrated and demolished and turned into mosques. Their patron saint's relics were exhumed and torched in Belgrade. They resisted with rebellion after rebellion and each was brutally crushed with fresh waves of humiliations and atrocities. They were not alone in this: Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Bulgarians, Christian Arabs, Wallachians (the ones in Romania, not the ones Croats obsess over) and Christian Albanians suffered the same, some even worse. The Armenians suffered the worst, in the end.
And those Serbs who wanted a better life fled north and west into the relative (yes, that is a key point, because it was only relative) ease of the Austrian empire. And in this empire, they defended the border from that backward, abusive, aggressive Ottoman empire for century after century. And in that way they made their own very real contribution towards Vienna being a place where Beethoven could write his symphonies rather than a second Constantinople with sultans and harems and a grand mosque whose walls predate the very existence of Islam.
Tomislav
February 7th, 2011 at 7:13 am
No, you are not laughing. Serbs tend to be extremely serious whenever they speaking about their "victims" and "suffering".
Tomislav
February 7th, 2011 at 7:16 am
Nit-picking… "Could be" or "are", it's all irrelevant. You understood damn well what I wanted to say.
Tomislav
February 7th, 2011 at 7:51 am
@ Rad and paleo
You seem to think Croats really care about Jasenovac and the second world war? You really think most Croats want to "justify" themselves for something that happened about 70 years ago?
Then you are totally deluded. The vast majority of people in Croatia simply DON'T CARE and don't see why they should "apologize" or even "feel guilty". They aren't "ashamed" of the ustasha regime, nor are they proud. They simply see it as some event from the past that has no bearing on the present time. And that's healthy attitude. It's only when some Serbs (and sometimes some Jewish organizations or individuals) take up the topic, that Croats, reactively, respond to it, in various ways (and that's when discussions on the number of victims or on other things arise). But generally, it's absent from the Croatian collective psyche. Go to the website of the municipality of Jasenovac: you won't see there any mention of the concentration camp, no photos of the "stone flower", it's not even mentioned in the short history of the townlet in question. The memorial complex is only mentioned in the address book of the place, among many other addresses of other local institutions. So if you think we are so desperately trying to shake some imaginary collective guilt off of our back, you are in for a disappointment. It's only several pseudo-intellectuals who occasionally blather on that, but nobody listens to them.
Plenty of Serbs constantly live in the past and are obsessed and consumed with some events from the past, so they think everyone else does as they do. But that's far from the truth.
bozh
February 7th, 2011 at 8:01 am
each volk has own truth, history, lore. however, truth 1, the american truth, is not truth 2, the serbian truth.
german truth 3 '1934 is not german truth 3 today. their truth 3 today does not call for reunion of all german lands.
hungarian truth 4 today does not require that vojvodina, parts of croatia, and transylvania become part of hungary by waging wars for these regions.
serb truth 2, 1870, is serb truth 2, today. or to be adequate-accurate, serb truth 2 is valid only for about 50% of serb pop today.
as i have said bosniaks, assert losing 142 k people. and they r not in forgiving mood. i do not think they r in mood to agree with icty numbers.
for them, their truth 5, like serb truth 2, will not change anytime soon.
so, much depends on nato regarding serb truth 2. serbs who possess a diff truth than chetniks r always a factor.
so, we wait and see what happens. i think there will be no more wars in ex-yugoslavia. tnx
Suvorov
February 7th, 2011 at 9:52 am
Toma,
Regarding your last paragraph: "He to whom the present is the only thing that is present, knows nothing of the age in which he lives".
Since you come from the last cultural bastion of the West, surely there is no need for me to tell you who said that.
Also, thank you for your honesty in not denying that Croats don't feel ashamed of the ustashe. Your description of Croatia's suppression of its horrendous past is an accurate one. I can certainly understand why Croats don't like to recall it as much as Serbs do. Not coming to terms with criminal past almost invariably leads to criminal present, which Croatia has proven yet again.
Suvorov
February 7th, 2011 at 10:52 am
paleo,
You touched on something interesting, namely, some of the roots of Russophobia. It occurred to me that many (by no means all!) Westerners simply cannot come to terms with the fact that an Orthodox country well to the East can rival or even surpass them culturally, scientifically, militarily etc. "How come the place where bears are roaming around was the first one to send humans into space?!"
I once had a debate on youtube with that typical progressive post-modern pro-EU and pro-NATO ustasha-apologist who called himself "Objective History". He lamented the fact that Serbia formed a "pro-Western" government instead of going with backwards and barbaric Russia. He didn't like it when I wanted to compare Russia's contributions to civilization with those of Croatia, and he preferred to compare Russia's accomplishments with that of the entire West, saying that the latter still comes out on top. I told him the fact that he would put one country against all countries of the West on the scale already says something about that one country. He didn't like that either.
That phenomenon also explains why many countries in Eastern Europe so much resent having been either part of Russian Empire in various forms or inside the Russian sphere of influence. The same Polish or Baltic nationalists who decried the loss of their sovereignty to Russia, now don't mind giving it away to the US without even putting up a fight.
bozh
February 7th, 2011 at 2:21 pm
to me, it is of no import to delve on croat'n supremacism or individuals who have excelled in sport, music, literature, etc..
to me, a peasant who grows fruits, vegetables, etc., is of much greater importance than any of these achievers who think they have a right to a better life than a pig farmer or tiller.
in fact, these 'elites' in u.s. and elsewhere lead us from catastrophe to catastrophe; from war to wars; from lying-deceiving to ever greater lying.
they lead us to ever greater global warming, legal theft, lesser healthcare, wages, etc.
they wage nescience, poverty without which war cld never ever happen.
do i give a hoot about tudjman, sanader, sheks, et al? each a greater thief-liar than the other!
what i do care about is that serbs do not use these criminals to collectively punish my people!
and don't think i wld not use nuclear weapons [if i had them] against serbia if it wld ever again attack my people. tnx
Tomislav
February 7th, 2011 at 5:43 pm
So the French and the English should constantly feel ashamed for their colonialism? Iran should officially apologize to Greece for Persian wars? What about Mongols, they should commit a collective suicide from shame because of all of those atrocities committed by Genghiz Khan and his descendants. Something similar goes for Arabs, Russians, Spaniards, Turks etc and all other conquerors who indulged in massacres throughout history. And Serbia, which massacred Turks and other Muslims, Croats, Hungarians and Albanians in various wars should also wallow in shame and self-hate? You never remember massacres from the Balkan wars, perpetrated by Serbs on Kosovo Albanians? You are not ashamed? Shame on you.
Suvorov
February 7th, 2011 at 7:52 pm
Constant guilt is not necessary, especially if you are not personally responsible. Simply admitting that it happened, instead of denying, minimizing, mocking or dismissing it as you are doing, and apologizing (preferably mentioning who the victims were) would suffice. A decent German would never refer to the Holocaust as"some Nazi excesses", to use your terminology. Neither is Germany suing Israel for genocide. You always wanted to be civilized like Germany, no one is stopping you.
As to the Operation Storm, which you mentioned earlier, if the expulsion of 250,000 civilians (and slaughter of those who couldn't leave) by 150,000 troops, equipped and trained by the US and assisted by the American drones and blackmail diplomacy, is a great military triumph for you, that only reminds how glorious your military history is. Congratulations, you somehow didn't manage to lose this time. You did particularly well against those who couldn't move.
Tomislav
February 7th, 2011 at 8:58 pm
"Neither is Germany suing Israel for genocide."
Stupid comparison.
"As to the Operation Storm, which you mentioned earlier, if the expulsion of 250,000 civilians (and slaughter of those who couldn't leave) by 150,000 troops"
You reap what you sow. If there had been no 1991 (and you understand what I mean), then there wouldn't have been 1995. Serbs wanted the war – they got. To their own detriment, as it turned out in the end.
"equipped and trained by the US and assisted by the American drones and blackmail diplomacy"
Myths, conspiracy theories, not even worth commenting.
Hrebeljanovic
February 7th, 2011 at 10:05 pm
Where did you get the idea that I was a Serb? Xa – xa.
You are telling me what am I doing or not? Xa – xa.
Why are you pretending that you don't know Cyrillic alphabet, after all it's your own Serb language? Xa – xa.
Hrebeljanovic
February 7th, 2011 at 10:12 pm
Marvelous posts paleo, just marvelous. Flawless.
Pardon me for asking, who thought you how to write?
Wish Justin and Eric read your latest posts.
Rad
February 8th, 2011 at 12:35 am
I totally agree with you. I am very much impressed.
Some scholarly written material.
Well researched material on varieties of subjects.
Suvorov
February 8th, 2011 at 12:40 am
Indeed, if there were no return of the ustashe to the Croatian government in 1991 or even earlier, there would be no genocide (purely hypothetical scenario, of course, as one cannot expect fish to stay out of the water). It is also true that Serbia reaped what it sowed. It was foolish enough to treat losers as winners twice. Instead of consolidating all the Serb lands and giving the rest to Italy, it accepted Judas' into the union based on the mythical notion of Yugoslav brotherhood. No sane country would accept a people that committed two genocides (btw, remind me what your excuse for the first one is) against it in less than 30 years. As a reward, Serbs got the 3rd one in the 90's.
As to myths and conspiracy theories, I am sorry if your masters forgot to inform you that they themselves no longer deny their involvement in those Napoleonic victories of yours. I realize that Croatia is one of the last places that news reach, but do try to keep up to the best of your modest ability.
Emilyrose
February 8th, 2011 at 4:28 am
How much were the Serb survivors of Jasenovic paid for their suffering.
Germany has paid out billions in reparations to jews.
How much has Croatia paid in such reparations?
Or as usual are some camp survivors more equal than others?
bozh
February 8th, 2011 at 7:15 am
for the record! i do not feel any guilt for serb deaths during ww2. it cld be noted that japanese have committed crimes against chinese, but chinese do not blame japanese people.
germans have committed crimes against poles. if i remember correctly, polish govt asserts 3mn poles being killed by nazi germany.
but poles have never tried to spread hatred for all germans.
the tenet or legality of not blaming an entire folk is accepted jews, russians, czechs, armenians, vietnamese, romas, bulgars, et al.
none of these voelken blame an entire folk because of crimes perped by a respective state or individuals.
in case of vietnamese, they were totally innocent victims of an u.s. aggression. not a single vietnamese had even hurt a single american or european, let alone killed any.
this observation is also valid for nicaraguans, cubans, koreans, afghanis, iraqi, pal'ns, yemenis, somalians, et al.
it seems only serbs apply the dictum: a people is guilty for any crimes committed by its govt.
however, croatia as a state did not even exist during ww2. nazis and fascists brought a bunch of fascists to rule croats, muslims, and serbs for own benefit.
i am proud of most croat'ns. it was a small people that cld not be erased by stronger or much stronger adversaries; among them magyars, turks, serbs, et al. tnx
Rad
February 8th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
ZERO, plus stab in the back ………
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 8th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
From a guy using the name of a mythical Croatian king from the Tenth Century (some eleven hundred years ago), this was one so beautiful, it deserves a rerun.
Tomislav speaks:
"@ Rad and paleo
You seem to think Croats really care about Jasenovac and the second world war? You really think most Croats want to "justify" themselves for something that happened about 70 years ago?
Then you are totally deluded. The vast majority of people in Croatia simply DON'T CARE and don't see why they should "apologize" or even "feel guilty". They aren't "ashamed" of the ustasha regime, nor are they proud. They simply see it as some event from the past that has no bearing on the present time. And that's healthy attitude. It's only when some Serbs (and sometimes some Jewish organizations or individuals) take up the topic, that Croats, reactively, respond to it, in various ways (and that's when discussions on the number of victims or on other things arise). But generally, it's absent from the Croatian collective psyche. Go to the website of the municipality of Jasenovac: you won't see there any mention of the concentration camp, no photos of the "stone flower", it's not even mentioned in the short history of the townlet in question. The memorial complex is only mentioned in the address book of the place, among many other addresses of other local institutions. So if you think we are so desperately trying to shake some imaginary collective guilt off of our back, you are in for a disappointment. It's only several pseudo-intellectuals who occasionally blather on that, but nobody listens to them.
Plenty of Serbs constantly live in the past and are obsessed and consumed with some events from the past, so they think everyone else does as they do. But that's far from the truth. "
All is said. No comment is needed.
paleo
February 8th, 2011 at 6:08 pm
Thank you both, very kind of you.
paleo
February 8th, 2011 at 6:21 pm
While I do not consider WWI or 1990s instances of genocide against the Serbs (I think there were massive atrocities in both but they wouldn't be characterized as genocide), your overall point is correct. We were idiots and we are idiots. We are idealistic to the point of suicide. We are doing the same thing now with EU accession that we were doing with Yugoslavia. It's a recipe for disaster, a recipe for total re-engineering of Serbian society, culture, and the country itself according to "standards" imposed by Germany.
Now, where I disagree is with your contention that our idiocy is what got us into trouble. Our idiocy made us more naive and fumbling when the Ustase came back in 1990. I recall my father expressing surprise that so many Dalmatian Croats were pro-Ustasa in 1991 when previously they had allegedly been "Partisan". Having read bozh's posts and learned a lot about why Dalmatian Croats might have favored Yugoslavia (vis-a-vis Italy, i.e. purely out of self-interest and greed), I know better now.
But the fact is that Tito wouldn't let the Serbs out. Per Smiljana Avramov (I'm attaching a collection of clips of an interview with her), Tito massacred thousands of Serb intellectuals and dissidents in Belgrade and other parts of Sumadija back in 1944 and mostly finished up the job in 1945. Those few stragglers Tito didn't get to in 1944-45 were thrown into Goli Otok after the war. Avramov particularly details how "the remnants of the Thessaloniki front" were destroyed. Tito actually targeted the WWI heroes and their family members because it was precisely those sorts of people who would be most likely to stand up to Tito's ways and press for some sort of justice for the Serbs.
In the end, Serbia hasn't been ruled by Serbs since 1941 (excepting the brief Milosevic period, which was disastrous because the cards were stacked and Milosevic was always playing mouse to NATO's/USA's cat). They were idiots but it wasn't their idiocy that killed them. It was Tito's massacres and imprisonments internally and externally the smouldering fire the Vatican and Ustasa emigres fed for 45 years until Germany was ready to throw gasoline on it in 1990.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lYZFAUql0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kejLfD448Uc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lYZFAUql0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qal0mHW38oc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX3xMx1SH_o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr8mznMIWG8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-N-YBX4Syg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTeaGlON6Dw
paleo
February 8th, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Croatia has paid $0 to Serb, Jewish, Roma, or any other survivors of their WWII genocide project.
Croatia has returned $0 worth of property that the NDH/Independent State of Croatia confiscated from their victims during the war. That property was either conveniently "nationalized" according to Communist principles after the war, or simply shipped off as loot to Swiss banks.
I do not think Serbs should look with bitterness or envy at that fact that Jews have gotten reparations from Germany and Serbs have gotten nothing but ethnic cleansing and brazen lawsuits from Croatia.
First, the Jews fought for it hard. There were lawsuits, public information campaigns, diplomatic pressure, etc. Armenians are doing the same right now. Serbs are doing nothing.
Second, the US occupation pressured Germany to settle accounts on this issue. You will notice that Germany was not anywhere nearly as forthright in compensating Roma victims, Poles, Russians, or many other victims that were murdered pretty indiscriminately (if not quite as systematically as Jews) because their ethnicity made them inferior in the Aryan racial ideology. Nobody made Germany face up to that and accordingly they haven't. In former East Germany, the situation is even worse because the Soviets turned WWII into a class warfare phenomenon and suppressed the ethnic component of the genocide and mass crimes of the Nazis. You will notice that nobody has managed to compel Turkey to do the same and accordingly they haven't done anything to compensate Armenians.
Third, Serbs failed to fight for their rights because silence was a requisite for "coexistence" in Tito's Yugoslavia and was in fact enforced from above. Brotherhood and unity and all that BS. This situation doesn't have an analogue in the Jewish and Armenian cases since those two peoples (the survivors, that is) did not have to live in a common state with the perpetrators for 50 years.
Fourth, the Serbs are still not doing anything about it because the quislings in Belgrade are scared of stepping on Germany's toes or getting Croatia angry and incurring a veto once Croatia is in the EU. These traitors value EU membership and "good relations" with Germany and Croatia more highly than justice for Serb victims of genocide. There's no excuse for this whatsoever and the Serbs can only blame themselves for it. They may not realize that the clock is ticking and that compensation is becoming more and more meaningless as the survivors and their families die off.
Hrebeljanovic
February 8th, 2011 at 7:33 pm
From what I remember, tito cut a one time deal with Germany's Willy Brandt for war reparations. That money went into building the nuclear plant in Krsko which to this day supplies Slovenia and Croatia with electricity. Serbs never saw a dime of it.
paleo
February 8th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Correct: 0:12-1:12 of this clip deals with this question. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-N-YBX4Syg
Reparations from Germany were given up in lieu of German assistance for the Krsko power plant, although Germany by and large didn't destroy infrastructure in Croatia and Slovenia and the bulk of their civilian victims did not die in either of those two territories.
Reparations from Bulgaria were dropped as a gesture of goodwill to the "brotherly Bulgarian people."
It was very easy for Tito and his clique of Slovenes and Croats to forgive atrocities perpetrated against Serbs.
Hrebeljanovic
February 8th, 2011 at 8:23 pm
1990s were the completion of WW ll Genocide. Official policy of the Independent State of Croatia was: "1/3 of Serbs we are going to kill, 1/3 we are going to turn Catholic and 1/3 we are going to expel from Croatia. The last third of this unbeknown genocidal policy was fulfilled in the 1990s.
paleo
February 8th, 2011 at 8:44 pm
I do not consider expulsion to be genocide. I think it dilutes the meaning of the word. By that argument, the Hindu-Muslim expulsions in the partition of India were genocide. The Serb expulsions of, e.g. Muslims from the Drina valley would constitute genocide. Expulsions and even haphazard atrocities on their own do not constitute genocide.
I have a very strict definition of genocide: a state with a well developed and substantially and successfully implemented policy of destroying an ethnic or religious group primarily through biological extermination of all members of the group. Although the Independent State of Croatia said that it would expel 1/3, convert 1/3, and kill 1/3, in fact the majority of the victims were killed (about 750,000 dead, 250,000 converted, and another 250,000 expelled). In addition, many converts were killed after they converted to Roman Catholicism, which indicates that merely their Serbian birth and origin was just cause for the Ustase to massacre them.
With such a criterion, in the modern era there have been only a few true genocides: Herero (1904-1907), Armenian (1915-1918), Assyrian (1915-1918), Jewish (1941-1945), Roma (1941-1945), Serbian (1941-1945), Tutsi (1994).
Suvorov
February 8th, 2011 at 11:55 pm
paleo,
The definition of genocide varies among legal scholars. Some of them classify expulsion as a form of genocide. From that point of view, what happened in 1990s was clearly a genocide. As to WWI, Serbia lost 50% of its male population and 25% of its entire population. The difference was that it wasn't only Croats who committed horrendous atrocities against civilians that time.
As to Serbia's mistakes, yes, perhaps it was difficult to predict the future in 1918. And I by no means suggested that no one could see through it in 1945. I was also aware that Tito eliminated political opponents and dissidents, but, after all, most of his Partizans were Serbs (even if most of them didn't come from Serbia) who allowed themselves to be fooled into letting their own country to be destroyed. Again proves that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Btw, thanks for attaching the interview with Avramov. Curiously enough, I just watched it several days ago. Well, I thought she explained why Pavelic was released only 2 days after being captured by the British. Good program that is: "Pitanja i Otgovori". I remember watching an interview with Ljubodrag Duci Simonovic in that studio. What do you think of him?
Finally, that's a good point about Germany and compensations. Unfortunately, nations are usually forced into admitting their guilt. It is seldom based on goodwill or genuine guilt. The same goes for public figures. Can you imagine what would happen if Joe Biden's no less degenerate (and apparently no less papist) son said, "When Jewish thugs were killing ethnic Palestinians…"? It's not that they love political correctness or certain ethnic groups so much. In this example, it's not even that the majority of Americans love Jewish people (which would reflect in politics), as some like to claim. It's that certain ethnic groups are much better represented and organized than others. When it comes to Serbs or Russians, no political correctness or any restraint at all are required.
Emilyrose
February 9th, 2011 at 5:51 am
So the fact that the Serbs received no reparations is the Serbs own fault.
That would do Pontius Pilate proud and is completely offensive in my book.
And why should the Germans pay?.
Jasenovic was Croat.
About time they disgorged.
The Jews want millions more now as the survivors are old. Ditto Serbs!
Perhaps a new Serbian administration would take this up and start representing the Serbian people rather than lining their pockets and serving the Empire as has happened post Yugoslav war.
Another question.
How much have the Croatians paid in compensation to the Krajinan Serbs?. Dispossessed Serbs.
No doubt that, too, is the Serbs own fault!!
Nicolic hopefully will win next time and I hope that those around him remind him that a lot of Serbian people are owed.
Of course if the Germans were liable for reparations after World war2 as the power behind the throne sort of, then surely the NATO allies of Croatia should be paying out for Serbs dispossessed in Croatia and Kosovo?.
Think about it.
Now Bliar, Clinton, the neocons have been exposed as war criminals I think you will find that people in the west have a greater understanding of the lies and injustice Serbs suffered.
Yes, a higher profile is required that I admit.
Tomislav
February 9th, 2011 at 6:59 am
Live in your imaginary world of conspiracy theories if it suits you. I guess it's a way to cope more easily with the bitter feeling of defeat. Maybe this lack of feeling for reality and indulging in wild fantasizing is one of the main causes for the Serbian defeat in the first place? Who knows.
As for your other point, many Serbs from Croatia would disagree. Today they say they shouldn't have done what they did in 1941. Some of them, not all. They inflicted misery on other and got it back as a boomerang. Had there been no war and had they accepted independent Croatia, these days they would have been some cuddled minority, with broad rights, according to European standards. Probably Europe would force Croatia into implementing that. But this way they lost everything: house, job, businesses, appartments etc. Now they are allowed to obtain Croatian citizenship and the state rebuilt those houses that were destroyed during and after the Operation Storm, but what most of them do is selling that house as soon as it is finished. They don't seem to think there is any life for them here left. Jobs are scarce (for anyone) and the majority people is distrustful of them (for known reasons). Plus the fact that many started their new lives in Serbia or the Serbian part of Bosnia (less common).
Tomislav
February 9th, 2011 at 10:28 am
Maybe it's all about cultural differences? A cultural misunderstanding at work? Serbs seem to be too much obsessed with history, in a way that they barely distinguish past from present, circumstances of some other times with those of the present-day world. Then some collectivist, tribalist way of thinking which induces them to try to pin collective guilt on entire nations for some events from the past (but deny that any such guilt could be put on them). Emotional-hysterical outbursts whenever someone doesn't agree with their view of history and the cosmic importance of their "victims".
Other peoples suffered many injustices and massacres in the past, but don't constantly whine about that. We never hear, for example, Vietnamese demanding "victim status" because of several millions killed by Americans. And we could list other examples. Why do Serbs think the whole world should care about their history and their "victims" (but not those of others)? Do they think the entire universe should revolve around them? What's so special about that, that the world should care so much? And it happened quite long time ago, 70 years ago. Weird people. Serbs are true drama queens.
Because of this cultural difference, people in Croatia can't even understand why they should feel "guilty" for some deeds in which they personally didn't participate.
Regarding reparations, well. Raising such questions could open Pandora's box. Be careful what you wish for. Someone here mentioned expulsions of Muslims from the Drina area, so they could seek a reparation or two. And many other things.
Suvorov
February 9th, 2011 at 11:46 am
First of all, it is known that history has a tendency to repeat itself, especially if not learned properly.
Secondly, guilt and reparations are two different things. You don't have to feel guilty for something you haven't personally done (though you could and should feel guilty for justifying those actions) in order to pay reparations for what classifies as genocide under any definition of the term. I am referring to the events of 1941-45 in NDH.
Thirdly, the Vietnamese are not demanding anything from the US because that attempt would be entirely fruitless. We know the current condition of international justice, but even when it passes a verdict against the United States, it is simply being ignored and cannot be enforced.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 9th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
A rhetorical question. Did you feel proud when Croatia became world champion in Handball or in Waterpolo, even though you couldn't objectively take any personal credit for it?
Rad
February 9th, 2011 at 2:57 pm
If Mr Malic choose the subject for example: ' Life in Zimbabwe ' he will attract the kind of Bozh and Tomislav with their constant diatribes about the Serbs. Then, Serbs have to answer back. I see here one organized group harassing Mr. Malic no mater of the subject matter he is writing about.
My answer to Tomislav is – that 70 years is such a short time distance in
historical (annoyance again) context. As for Croats creating concentration camps in retaliation for some imaginary injustice in first Yugoslavia doesn't
make any sense. The Croats were treated extremely generously by both
Yugoslavia. I could go in details about the subject …..The key positions were given to Croats, Slovenes and others at end (head of state, finances,
diplomacy, military and more – with the names, etc.).
As for 'cultural misunderstandings' what exactly you mean? The language,
religion, race or something else?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 9th, 2011 at 3:14 pm
Don't contribute to Global Warming by trying to explain why Tomislav and bozh are wrong. As a matter of fact, Alban is a much more interesting specimen than the two of those. Time is an illusion. Past is past, whether seventy or eleven hundreds years ago. It is not absence of a feeling of guilt that should be reproached to them.
Jovan Dučić (my translation) : "The Croats are the bravest nation in the world, not because they fear nothing, but because they are ashamed of nothing."
Serbs have committed crimes too. Not on the scale of Jasenovac or Prebilovci or Jadovno, but a crime is a crime. I haven't participated in them and I don't feel guilty for them. But I do feel ashamed of them.
Suvorov
February 9th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
I am not sure what defeat I should feel bitter about since my nation suffered none. On the contrary, my people made sure that 20,000 of your brethren never returned from Stalingrad. That was also where the fate of your masters was decided. Therefore, I will leave fantasies such as "joint criminal enterprise to create Greater Serbia" to your wild (if somewhat sick) imagination. As to becoming a "cuddled minority", 20 years ago many Serbs could still remember being cuddled by the Independent State of Croatia. It was insolent of them indeed to refuse to walk to their graves again. Really, can you imagine a Jew who wouldn't embrace the yellow star, swastika and "Arbeit macht frei" for the second time?
Finally, I will take your statement:
"Today they say they shouldn't have done what they did in 1941(instead of 1991, which you probably meant-Suvorov)"
as a Freudian slip.
Suvorov
February 9th, 2011 at 4:51 pm
You don't seriously believe in man-made global warming, do you?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 9th, 2011 at 4:57 pm
If my kin don't get my puns…
…though I think we eat too much beef :)
paleo
February 9th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
That must be it. Which is why Croats still talk about the massacre of ~200 Croats at Ovcara/Vukovar as if it happened yesterday, although it happened 20 years ago, and the main players involved were prosecuted at the ICTY.
On the other hand, when Serbs still talk about a massacre of hundreds of thousands of Serbs all over Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Srem that happened 70 years ago, although the main players were never prosecuted and punished at Nuremberg or anywhere else, they are whining and mentally deranged.
You guys were saying "it happened a long time ago" back in 1991 and 1971. It was "a long time ago" in 1946 for you guys.
paleo
February 9th, 2011 at 5:17 pm
Why do you insist on talking to Ustasa pigs as if they were human? Remember Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
paleo
February 9th, 2011 at 5:21 pm
You're Russian? I know we Serbs get a bit self-centered when we talk about WWII and forget how many other peoples, Russian more than most, suffered terribly during that same conflict. Thanks for the dedicated effort at countering the nonsense of Tomislav, bozh, & co.
paleo
February 9th, 2011 at 5:24 pm
I think you misunderstood my post. It's not their fault, because even if Serbia did press for reparations now they would not get them. The Croat patrons, the Germans, are much too powerful now. But the fact that they don't press reparations makes it seem as if the government just doesn't care about the victims at all. Why is there no genocide museum in Belgrade as the Israelis have in Yad Vashem and Armenians have in Tsitsernakaberd? That is part of the problem. The UK and France are no longer any obstacle to German power in Europe, the way they were in the past. And you are right, Germany didn't build or even finance Jasenovac, they shouldn't pay any reparations for Pavelic's + Pius XII's sick project.
Suvorov
February 9th, 2011 at 5:28 pm
No, I got it. I was just making sure you didn't seriously believe in that fraudulent rubbish.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 9th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
Why do we insist? We enjoy the devil being incapable of subtlety, humour, you know those things that taunting each other make us burst into laughter while, between friends, we share a drink, we get greedy on a piece of barbecued meat, and we're told "pal, breathe". They're stiff, they have no substance, they have committed a genocide, they feel no shame, let's help them show their true nature.
Suvorov
February 9th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
Amen
paleo
February 9th, 2011 at 6:04 pm
Well, yes, the part where bozh explained how he wouldn't hesitate to use nuclear weapons on Serbia (and he said that in a personal way, as if he were the one issuing the orders, flying the plane, and pressing the red button) made me laugh a bit. The other good tidbit is when he called tsar Dusan a fascist.
Suvorov
February 9th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
I am of mixed ethnic origin. Yes, Russians suffered greatly without a doubt, as did other peoples of USSR. Actually, Belarus suffered more than any other republic, having lost a quarter of its population. The difference with Yugoslavia was that Nazi collaborators were pursued mercilessly after the war in USSR. One woman who machine-gunned prisoners for the Nazis and had to change her identity after the war, was finally identified in 1975 and executed. She was actually from Belarus. Another difference is that in Russia's case no republic dared attack Russia militarily. Have you ever wondered why the West is most hostile towards Russia, Belarus and Serbia of all the European countries? And then if we add to that the fact that the Balkan map of today is remarkably similar to the way Hitler envisioned it, that should lead us onto something. Btw, thank you for delaying the Germans for six weeks in 1941.
And there is no need to thank me for wiping the floor with Tomislav or diagnosing bozh. I considered it a sadistic form of entertainment. I know that sounds cruel, but I still prefer that to making necklaces out of child fingers.
bozh
February 9th, 2011 at 6:40 pm
if croats wld pay reparation, it shld pay it to bosnia and not serbia. however, we r not obligated morally nor legally to pay reparation even to bosnia.
neither serbia nor croatia had recognized bosnia as an independent entity; thus, bosnia, de jure, had not existed from '39 to '45 after serbia and croatia divided bosnia among selves.
serbia by invading bosnia in'92; killing 142 k muslims; raping 20k women; expelling 1 mn + muslims is morally and legally obligated to pay reparations to either bosniaks or to a de jure bosnia that might exists one day.
croatia had not ever attacked serbia.
however, if world court wld find croatia must pay reparations to serbs from croatia or bosnia, croatia has to pay them.
however, never to serbia. it is very interesting how the world court wld adjucate in this case.
it cost the world $18o mns just to repair damage to dubrovnik. so, i think serbia is asking for trouble or is just bluffing.
it wld be wise of bosnians and croats to call serb bluff. i say, let's go to courts! tnx
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 9th, 2011 at 6:53 pm
I'm sorry but I'm not that zealous on reading moron's rants. A good point for you to have made such a sacrifice. I'm definitely confident that people operating this site are capable of appreciating any comment we make, our ethnicity notwithstanding.
And I'm grateful to them that they are true to their libertarian credentials for allowing, lest gore displays of unrestrained morbid logorrhea, any sort of rant to be viewed.
bozh
February 9th, 2011 at 6:59 pm
so, why did king '29 unilaterally proclaim diktatorship and changed the nam eof the state from SHS to "yugoslavia"; ie, serbia?
so why did serbia occupy croatia even in '18; kept imprisoning our leaders radic, macek et al.
serbia did all that + slain radic and two more croat'n parliament members. another two or three were wounded. the assassin got house arrest fro it!
it did all that because serbia said: half or more of croatia is serbia. and not just in '18, but in '90.
however, in '95 it gave up because it knew it cld not ever defeat croatia let alone if bosnia, kosovo, vojvodina, sandzak joined it in a war against serbia and/or all serbs.
serbia was strong and greedy in late 80s. it blustered, threatened, licked knives, waved swords, etc.
oh how mighty have fallen, calls out a hebrew writer! tnx
Suvorov
February 9th, 2011 at 8:36 pm
Btw, speaking of those who supposedly don't care about the past:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j0TsocAN18&fe…
One of them gathers 60,000 of his followers in Zagreb , including members of the government, and they all there not thinking about the past.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 9th, 2011 at 8:38 pm
For God's sake, even though you obviously are a lost cause when it comes to spelling or syntax, at least make an effort with punctuation, so we common mortals can understand your genius. In other terms, you simply are unreadable. Is that your intention?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 9th, 2011 at 8:47 pm
Note that I don't pretend to be an expert in English. It's just that, is it me, or is bozh simply indigestible?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 9th, 2011 at 8:57 pm
I mean I'm personally acquainted with the Croat who served as official translator for all the leaders in the former Yugoslavia, and I have seen her make translations in order to fit her ideological obtuseness, truth being a collateral damage. However I dislike her, Maya at least knows to speak.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 9th, 2011 at 9:25 pm
And he uses as pseudo the brand of the Cosa Nostra's supposedly favourite weapon (the one often seen used against the "Untouchables" – according to Hollywood propaganda), my opinion of prohibition being as much a terror act as the Patriot act notwithstanding.
But his pseudo tells us the ilk he identifies with and how he'd like to treat adversaries.
Didn't I mention him in one of my posts?
Hrebeljanovic
February 9th, 2011 at 10:22 pm
"I considered it a sadistic form of entertainment. I know that sounds cruel, but I still prefer that to making necklaces out of child fingers. "
I thank you for this. Now I know I am not the only one.
Hrebeljanovic
February 9th, 2011 at 11:34 pm
Dear Emilyrose(what a beautiful name, I envision you as a great looking English gal),
you are right that paleo sounds jaded.
It's quite simple as to why is that. Serbs cherish their sovereignty and therefore they question their actions before they give any care to the actions of others, no matter how some entity is powerful. Serbs owned their land for centuries(Vojna Krajina, Serbia proper…) and refused to be enslaved, while the other South Slavs were happy to serve their foreign masters. That is true to this day.
Living reality is that there are no filthy rich Serbs in today's world. No money, no power, no propaganda. However, Serbs believe that there is no pile of money big enough that can buy your own soul.
Hrebeljanovic
February 10th, 2011 at 12:07 am
Nice post Vojkan.
Let's keep in mind that the only purpose of some of the Croatians posters is not to express their opinion but to sabotage Mr. Malic's column.
The easiest way is to clog it up with endless rants a la "bozh". 'Nough said.
Suvorov
February 10th, 2011 at 12:43 am
My pleasure.
Hrebeljanovic
February 10th, 2011 at 1:40 am
"I remember watching an interview with Ljubodrag Duci Simonovic in that studio. What do you think of him? "
Please allow me to answer this question:
Imagine you are playing a pick up basketball game with your friends when Bill Wolton comes by and asks to join the the fray. Duci did that numerous times.
Duci's character is different than majority of people walking this earth, but he is a true patriot.
It is a little known fact that Ljubodrag Duci Simonovic is the first European basketball player to dunk the ball with his back turned towards the hole, stiff rims at that time.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 10th, 2011 at 4:14 am
You got the purpose of all my replies to them :)
Tomislav
February 10th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
So you are taking some trash singer as your "crown argument" for…what? Revival of ustashism or what? Taking some subcultural, fetishistic, marginal group for serious, mistaking subculture for politics? Just shows how serious you are. For your info, most of these people who attend Thompson's concerts are also happy to listen to songs of Arkan's widow Svetlana-Ceca Ražnatović. That's lack of culture and taste and not politics.
On the other hand, Serbia has organizations like "Nacionalni stroj" and openly Nazi groups proclaiming superiority of the so-called "white race". I don't know how numerous these groups are and how important, but Croatia has no such phenomenon.
Tomislav
February 10th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
"Which is why Croats still talk about the massacre of ~200 Croats at Ovcara/Vukovar as if it happened yesterday, although it happened 20 years ago, and the main players involved were prosecuted at the ICTY."
Not really. There is, once a year, a commemoration of the events that took place at Vukovar in 1991, a remembrance and that's it. During the rest of the year hardly anyone mentions it. Croats are not obsessed with that, they don't go around crying like crybabies and demanding some special victim status because of that, nor pretending that the whole world should be constantly reminded of the events in question.
Tomislav
February 10th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
"Why do you insist on talking to Ustasa pigs as if they were human?"
Hahaha. You are just displaying the full breadth of your Serbian culture. Just continue like that.
Vojkan Milosvljevic
February 10th, 2011 at 1:23 pm
Isn't he marvellous?
According to Tomislav, Serbs are racist sickos because there exists in Serbia a small group of lunatics who cannot even gather enough people to have a football (uhh soccer) game between them and who know zilch about the History of their own nation, and Serbs are whiners because they have a tendency to remember the savagery of their Western neighbours.
On the other hand Croats are perfectly sane people because they don't feel ashamed of the crimes of their parents and because they have a youth that gathers in the tens of thousands to display Nazi iconography and shout hateful slogans wherever Thompson appears.
However much I dislike Arkan's widow's, uhh, do I have to call it "music", she does not practice hate speech, except maybe for indelicate lovers, whereas hateful nazi-glorifying lyrics make the basis of Thompson's repertoire.
Suvorov
February 10th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
You were the one who anointed it my "crown argument". My crown arguments are those arguments above that you couldn't counter. My last post was rather a diagnosis of a country in which the Minister of Education and Sports, among other high-ranking government officials and prominent individuals, attend events which feature proclamations "Ubi Srbina" and "Za dom spremni" by a crowd of 60,000.
"I don't know how numerous these groups are and how important…
It is easy not to, because they are not very large. Nearly every European nation has white supremacist groups, what matters is precisely what you didn't know: their size and importance. Not even Estonia or Latvia could rival Croatia in its Nazi revival.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 10th, 2011 at 3:22 pm
I'm sorry for having used "we". I didn't realise at first that the question was addressed personally to me. I'm not as deluded as some here to use anything but the unstressed first person singular to express my opinion.
Tomislav
February 10th, 2011 at 3:37 pm
And according to you Croats are Nazi sickos because of the mere existence of some kitsch singer and the fact that his concerts are visited by some people who visit also other concerts, of other performers?
Now that's Serb schizophrenia at its best: applying some principles in judging others, while not considering those very same principles as obligatory for yourselves. And inability to even notice inconsistence and contradiction. While pretending, with a brazen face, to speak in the name of some alleged universal justice!
From cases like this I come to realization that the break-up of Yugoslavia was the best thing that happened to this area. We should be thankful to Milošević for his policy that made any Yugoslavia impossible and buried this concept for the entire eternity. The more these peoples are separated, the better. Because there is something about cultural differences, as I already mentioned, which makes any meaningful communication and understanding impossible. The two Yugoslavias amply demonstrated that.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 10th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
You are the one here who practices collective and personal name calling. Not me. You are the one here shamelessly constantly inferring that Serbs are collectively insane. I never said such a thing of Croats. I simply pointed to facts and resumed your reasoning.
Now, don't go whining if you eventually get banned because you obviously are incapable of civil discourse. The only thing you're capable of is hurling insults at people who disagree with you.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 10th, 2011 at 4:34 pm
Besides, not a single one of your comments has anything to do with the topic of the column.
We are all aware that the only reason of bozh's and your posts is to flood the comments section in order to sabotage it.
But I confess that I feel malicious pleasure at inciting you to expose you true nature. Not that you have to be coaxed to do it…
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 10th, 2011 at 4:49 pm
A (lightly revised) excerpt of my reply to Michael Kenny, who is one of the people who come here to sabotage the column, with utter disregard for the topic raised:
"Actually, I think that this column is a sort of outlet for Serb hating geezers who come here to disgorge their bile but never address any of the issues raised in the article. In fact, they hardly could, since I doubt they even read the column.
Keep coming and keep commenting. With people like you, who needs to spend on media spinning? "
Rad
February 10th, 2011 at 5:50 pm
For personal reasons. The other reason is the fact that the Croats are here just to harass Mr. Malic. Maybe they miss us now in Serb-cleansed-Croatia?
'Krajisnik in exile'
Suvorov
February 10th, 2011 at 11:03 pm
Sometimes I think that Michael Kenny's posts are (broken-) computer-generated. I literally get the sense that he has no clue what any of the articles he comments on are about. Nebojsa Malic could write about gardening and he would still find a way to bring "Israeli Lobby vs EU" into it somehow. Bozh is just a more elaborate and even more schizophrenic version of Michael Kenny. You know, I secretly wish for someone more interesting. Tomislav was my last hope, but he is boring me now. Lets face the truth now: he has never been anything more than cannon fodder. No MALICious pleasure for you.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
February 11th, 2011 at 3:26 pm
I too wish one of them was capable of arguing in a civil manner. Though I concede to be sometimes exasperated by their incivility, which leads me to spontaneously use language I regret immediately afterwards, I really would prefer a frank discussion without name calling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
It looks like they learnt it by heart.
Suvorov
February 11th, 2011 at 4:52 pm
They absorbed these with mother's milk.
Tomislav
February 14th, 2011 at 5:00 am
"I am not sure what defeat I should feel bitter about since my nation suffered none."
I thought you were Serb, not Russian.
"On the contrary, my people made sure that 20,000 of your brethren never returned from Stalingrad."
Yes, and? That's the war, that's how things go. Many people of different nationalities died in various battles all over Europe, during the Second world war. Besides, it was not 20 000, but 3000-4000 to the utmost. Some died in battle, others were captured by the Russians and later fought in the Red Army, against Germans.
"That was also where the fate of your masters was decided."
I don't care about Nazi Germany, nor about Germany in general.
"Therefore, I will leave fantasies such as joint criminal enterprise to create Greater Serbia to your wild (if somewhat sick) imagination. As to becoming a cuddled minority, 20 years ago many Serbs could still remember being cuddled by the Independent State of Croatia. It was insolent of them indeed to refuse to walk to their graves again. Really, can you imagine a Jew who wouldn't embrace the yellow star, swastika and 'Arbeit macht frei' for the second time?"
Now this verbal diarrhea of yours exudes some trashy sentimentality. It goes something like: "Oh, those poor things, they suffered so much during the second world war. Whenever they see Croatian coat-of-arms, they start to scream hysterically and lose their mind, blah blah". Now it's typical post-modern blather where human stories, "hurt feelings", emotions and trashy romantic sentimentality take precedence over the crux of the matter, in this case a political question. A question of political choices.
Croatian Serbs (the majority of them) made their choice: they "decided" that all Croats were Ustashe, that Croatia of 1990 was the same thing as Croatia of 1941, and they started to kill Croatian civilians (the famous Serb "heroism" from epic songs) in the name of that collective schizophrenia of theirs. But the fact remains that one has to bear consequences for their own choices. And the consequences came in 1995.
"Finally, I will take your statement:
Today they say they shouldn't have done what they did in 1941(instead of 1991, which you probably meant-Suvorov)
as a Freudian slip."
A minor and insignificant typo which doesn't change anything of the essence of what I said. Besides, even in 1941 Serbs committed massacres against Croatian population. I mean, the remanants of the royal Yugoslav army did that, even before the Ustasha-state was officially established. And later chetnik committed numbers of massacres of Croatian (and much more of Bosnian Muslim) population. Serbs are trying to present a picture according to which they were innocent lambs during the Second world war, slaughtered by ustashas and others at will, without having done any harm to anyone else. But the truth is quite different.
Suvorov
February 14th, 2011 at 12:58 pm
"Croatian Serbs (the majority of them) made their choice: they "decided" that all Croats were Ustashe, that Croatia of 1990 was the same thing as Croatia of 1941…"
No, that decision was in fact made for them by your new poglavnik Franjo Tudjman and his second Stipe Mesic, who openly identified with the ustasa cause and denied any responsibility for the ustasa genocide:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgXBwrxFGmk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmIpZLu96Rg&fe…
Also, the first acts of violence and discrimination were committed by Croats against Serbs before the break up of Yugoslavia, and not the other way around as you claim.
Now this verbal diarrhea of yours exudes some trashy sentimentality. It goes something like: 'Oh, those poor things, they suffered so much during the second world war. Whenever they see Croatian coat-of-arms, they start to scream hysterically and lose their mind, blah blah'…"
You've already screamed more about Vukovar (where a minuscule number of people died compared to the number of people you slaughtered during WWII) than Serbs did throughout their entire history. That is precisely the kind of sickly sentimental victimology you mentioned. It is ironic that Croats consider it their Stalingrad for the reasons I described above.
And "typical post-modern blather" is what Ruder and Finn secreted upon being hired by your government to portray Serbs as the new Nazis (again, quite ironic isn't it).
Tomislav
February 14th, 2011 at 5:40 pm
Lame comparison. Croats hardly ever mention Vukovar, even less demand any special "victim status" because of that. There is a commemoration once a year and that's it. It's rarely sentimental, mostly it's described as some heroic battle in the defence of homeland.
Unlike Serbs who never cease to whine about those events of seventy years ago. It is an obsession that goes beyond all limits of sanity. They never tire of reminding others of that. And they are usually distressed and horrified at seeing that the rest of the world is not at all obsessed with that, or outright ignores it, or doesn't care about it, or doesn't see anything so special about it (one among many massacres throughout history). It's always hysteria, foaming at the mouth, delirium, as if it happened yesterday. Hard to understand for any rational person.
Several years ago a man from Canada, of Serbian origin (from Croatian Serbs) came to visit his relatives living in a village of the Zadar hinterland. While he was in his cousins' house, he suddenly started to have paranoid attacks, raving about "ustashas" who were after him and were trying to kill him. His cousins (Serbs themselves too) tried to dissuade him, to calm him down, they were telling him there were no "ustashas" around etc. But to no avail. In one of the fits of his madness he attacked one of his cousins (Serb himself too), whom he imagined to be some ustasha who was trying to kill him, and stabbed him with a knife (fortunately, only lightly). Then he started to flee and the police caught him. He was put into one of the local Croatian psychiatric hospitals where he is being taken care of.
Another case: several years before the outbreak of the war of 1991 a woman from Montenegro (but of Serb ethnic self-identification) came to visit some of here Croatian friends living in a small village by the sea, in the surroundings of Šibenik. She came there with her ten-year old son. She never let her son out of the house, to have fun and play with other kids. When her host asked her why she was doing that, she answered that's because she was afraid "ustashas" were going to cut her son's throat! And all of it happened when there was no nationalism in Croatia at all, moreover, the region where she stayed was known to be very tolerant and "Yugoslav-minded", where hardly anyone cared about other peoples ethnicity.
The third case is of one elderly woman of Serbian origin (from Vojvodina) who lived in one Croatian town for the whole of her life. She was very well accepted in her local community and very appreciated. She worked as teacher of the French language at the local High School. After retirement, she used to spend winter in one French city, Annecy, where she had friends. Every spring she returned to her Croatian city, for the rest of the year. But once she didn't want to return to Croatia (it was, I believe, in 1988) when the spring came. She started to panic and to tell her French hosts that "ustashas" were after her and were trying to kill her. Her French friends didn't even know what "ustasha" meant and were puzzled (in those pre-internet times it was a bit more difficult than today to find the meaning of some unfamiliar words). And I heard of other cases like that: of elderly, already senile people (Serbs) starting to have paranoid attacks and fears from some imaginary "ustashas". And even younger people.
It's not very uncommon and it tells something. And it's definitely not normal. Maybe this psychiatric disorder has been caused by constant indoctrination with ustasha-mania, an indoctrination purposefully carried out by the Serbian elite on their people? Or there are some deeper roots to this collective madness?
Regarding Ruder and Finn: it belongs to the repertory of paranoid theories (became almost commonplace) circulating on the internet and is not even worth commenting upon.
bozh
February 14th, 2011 at 6:57 pm
mesic, tudjman and many descendents of ustashe were nor for pavelic's croatia– they were for a diff greater croatia.
their croatia wdl have incorporated abut 20% of bosnia. however, even catholic church and many croatians in croatia and bosnia were much dismayed about croatia's attack against bosniaks.
in spite of that fact, croats and bosniaks in n.e. areas of bosnia remained allies against serbs.
as far as i know, i had been the only croat who condemned that war to croatian officials visiting vancouver in '93–and in order to sell the war to us.
croatian fascist govt called the war off soon after that. recently, josipovic. croat'n, prez apologized for croatian aggression. tnx
Suvorov
February 14th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
I will start from the end. The fact that you are denying that Ruder Finn was hired by the Croatian government even though James Harff himself admitted it publicly on numerous occasions, once again proves that you are incapable of sustaining a serious argument. You can merely amuse me, and even that barely.
Here is the infamous interview given to Jacques Merlino of French TV 2 in 1993:
http://www.powerbase.info/index.php/James_Harff
What, did you think most people just liked your sickly lies naturally? I can see why facts are less popular in Croatia than "Mein Kampf".
Regarding those anecdotes you recounted (provided they are true), living through the horrors of NDH is bound to scar any normal human being for life. After all, you are the only people in the world who can rightfully pride itself on unnerving even the German SS officers, who reported to Berlin complaining about your psychopathic brutality toward civilians. Therefore, it's only natural that you should judge what is normal and what isn't. What seems perfectly normal or even amusing to a typical Croat, will inevitably sicken to the stomach a human being with any kind of normalcy, not even decency. Have you never heard that many concentration camp survivors are nervous when they hear German shepherds bark? It is a normal human reaction to a deeply traumatic experience. It's not them who are not normal, it's those who created NDH and those who sympathize with it who are not normal.
"Croats hardly ever mention Vukovar, even less demand any special "victim status" because of that"
Really? Is that why you filed a suit against Serbia for genocide?
Everything is twisted about you. First you commit genocide against a people and then sue them for it. You think that being a survivor of your monstrosities is funny.
Finally, if Serbs were obsessed with telling the world about their suffering, they would have hired Ruder Finn as you did. And Ustasa genocide was not "just another massacre", it was genocide.
Tomislav
February 15th, 2011 at 7:00 am
I am not denying Ruder and Finn was hired. I was just referring to various conspiracy theories and fantasies circulating on the internet, which overemphasize and wildly exaggerate the importance of this PR company for the policy of Western powers in the Balkans. Only an idiot can believe that policies of great powers can be swayed by simply employing some PR company (as if those powers didn't have their own sources of information). Such thinking is naive and stupid to the extreme. If things were as simple as that, for example, Saddam Hussein could have simply hired some good PR company and there wouldn't have been American attack and occupation of Iraq. Serious people don't indulge in such hallucinatory thinking. That is one of the main reasons why hardly anyone is interested in the Serb point of view: their "arguments" (and "arguments" of their apologists, various Suvorovs) are infantile to the extreme. Hiring some PR company at certain time during the war means nothing in the larger scheme of things. Many countries and organizations hire PR firms for various purposes.
But I guess you don't care about seriousness much. For the rest, you mentioned "amusement". So I guess this Ruder and Finn story is a kind of amusement of yours.
Normal people don't eternally dwell on the past bad things they went through. Especially if they want to remain psychologically sane. I've known some Hungarian Jews, elderly people, who had been survivors of the Nazi camp. They never wanted to talk about that, it was a finished story for them. That's the way sane people do. Even their children were a little bit angry with their parents because they wanted to hear those stories, for the sake of some vain curiosity of theirs.
As for genocide suit, you should ask the current Croatian government (which is not to my liking anyway), not me. I think it is a mistake and that both Croatia and Serbia are going to lose in their respective suits. Because there was no genocide in Croatia in the nineties, from the either side. There were plenty of isolated war crimes and expulsions, but genocide? Hardly. It's a waste of money and time for both countries.
The only genocide in the nineties happened in Bosnia, by Serbs against Bosnian Muslims. That's why the present day Republika Srpska is so ethnically "pure".
It's curious that Serbian intellectuals and propagandists spent much energy in demonizing Croatian people because of the ustasha crimes, yet now they complain about haveing been demonized by the Western press and politicians. They didn't have to hire any PR agency, because they had the entire apparatus of the former Yugoslav diplomacy at their disposition.
bozh
February 15th, 2011 at 8:34 am
devil help goodness when people think like suvorov. he wants bloodshed, collective punishment of ?all croats but not collective punishment for russian crimes against afghanis, chechens, et al.
i think he shld first clean own yard and then get going on cleaning other peoples' yards.
as for ustashe? challenge had been issued to them: to the end–urs our ours. ustashe took up the challenge!
had we had independence we shld have expelled all serbs who wld not swear allegiance to croatia.
this is what u.s. and canada had done to japanese, et al even tho they were very loyal to their respective homelands.
u.k. had expelled acadians to lousiana. russians have transfered entire chechen pop beyond urals. i think volga germans had also been transfered to siberia. tnx
Vuk
February 15th, 2011 at 11:48 am
I read with interest your comments – all well documented and flawless contrary to the other side of debate regarding ex-Yugoslavia. The Croats have so called 'teams' just for the Serb forums. They defend something tha
is so horrible as Jasenovac and expulsion of their citizens this time.
So, my point is that they are planted as Bozh and Tomislav as others
to defend their fascist regimes present and previous one.
Also, Croats are destroying the pages from the books in world libraries where there are references to their crimes during NDH. Many people
are aware of this. This is a reminder how low some people would go in
defend their bloody history. I have to add one thing: in some religions if
you confess it's forgiven. That applies to Croats. The should have example of their sponsors – the Germany after Hitler.
To Tomislav: the Serbs civilians where put in concentrations camps or being killed as soon as NDH was established, before one have time to
resist (partisans/chetniks). Don't mention the "heroic" battles on Eastern Front and other places. Your legacy is to exterminate people who can't defend them-self as unarmed children, women and older people. I can give you personal history of going thru the empty Serb villages where there is no survivors. That's how my family is exterminated with others starting by May 1941. See the Grubisno Polje and others places. Also, this time, every Serbs house was mined and destroyed. I am not surprised that you do not want to be reminded of your crimes against humanity. You really never repented or have intention to do so. For this you do not have a maturity and conscience.
Tomislav
February 15th, 2011 at 5:01 pm
"Your legacy is to exterminate people who can't defend them-self as unarmed children, women and older people."
The same done by Serbs, on various occasions.
I am sorry for your family, but the whole Balkans are full of such stories. Many Croats also privately talk of the members of their families who were killed by either chetniks or partisans, or even by ustashe. Because the second world war was also Croatian civil war, ustashe vs. Croatian partisans. As in the Serb case it was chetniks vs. Serb partisans.
And, what deserted villages are you talking about? Where? They were deserted when? In the nineties?
Suvorov
February 15th, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Vuk,
First of all, my condolences about your family.
Thank you for your compliments. I have to repeat myself though that it isn't difficult to argue with those people. If "Tomislav" and "bozh" are the best they could come up with, then they are truly in terrible shape. I guess no one would give them money for Ruder and Finn again.
Regarding them damaging books, to be fair, you have to acknowledge certain progress. Whereas their mentors burned books altogether, they are merely ripping some pages out.
Suvorov
February 15th, 2011 at 5:56 pm
In addition to my comment that is currently awaiting approval:
Learning history, especially your own family's history is not "some vain curiosity". It is essential for any educated human being. But, again, I do understand why Croats may disagree.
Finally, no one demonizes Croatian people better than they themselves. The reason you had to hire PR agencies to demonize Serbs was that you had to distort their true character and actions in order to produce the desired effect. The reason no one needs to hire anyone to demonize you is that the worst demonization in your case is seeing you what for what you really are. I don't think Ruder and Finn could possibly for any money in the world make you look worse than you already do when you ridicule genocide survivors, say that nobody in Croatia cares about Jasenovac and that you have nothing to feel sorry for.
Suvorov
February 15th, 2011 at 6:02 pm
Tomislav,
You yourself just spent much energy putting words in my mouth. The first part of your entry entirely consists of statements that you falsely attributed to me. I never in any way, shape or form suggested that PR agencies ever influenced decision-making in Western centers of power. It is those governments that depends on them to spread lies that would justify their actions. The war in Iraq is case in point. Before invading it, MSM had to spread lies about WMD's and Saddam's link to 9/11 in order to "manufacture consent", to use Noam Chomsky's term, for the war. But no one in right mind would believe that Bush and Blair didn't know those were pure lies.
That in fact is the very highly pernicious myth that pro-Western liberals in Eastern Europe as well as some "principled Westerners" like to evoke. According to their neat little scheme, the modus operandi is the following: governments in Western countries act in accordance with "popular opinion" and "public consent", which in their turn are based on the objective and informative reporting by the "independent" media. Thus, in the Balkan example, after Western MSM honestly reported about the Serb monstrosities (Penny Marchall's story about Serb-run "concentration camps" and Fikret Alic's protruding rib cage, rape camps, "completely destroyed" Dubrovnik, "breadline massacre", and of course their crown jewel "Srebrenica genocide" to name a few examples) , NATO reluctantly and belatedly agreed to intervene due to public outcry against the Serb barbarians.
Tomislav,
You yourself just spent much energy putting words in my mouth. The first part of your entry entirely consists of statements that you falsely attributed to me. I never in any way, shape or form suggested that PR agencies ever influenced decision-making in Western centers of power. It is those governments that depends on them to spread lies that would justify their actions. The war in Iraq is case in point. Before invading it, MSM had to spread lies about WMD's and Saddam's link to 9/11 in order to "manufacture consent", to use Noam Chomsky's term, for the war. But no one in right mind would believe that Bush and Blair didn't know those were pure lies.
That in fact is the very highly pernicious myth that pro-Western liberals in Eastern Europe as well as some "principled Westerners" like to evoke. According to their neat little scheme, the modus operandi is the following: governments in Western countries act in accordance with "popular opinion" and "public consent", which in their turn are based on the objective and informative reporting by the "independent" media. Thus, in the Balkan example, after Western MSM honestly reported about the Serb monstrosities (Penny Marchall's story about Serb-run "concentration camps" and Fikret Alic's protruding rib cage, rape camps, "completely destroyed" Dubrovnik, "breadline massacre", and of course their crown jewel "Srebrenica genocide" to name a few examples) , NATO reluctantly and belatedly agreed to intervene due to public outcry against the Serb barbarians.
Vuk
February 15th, 2011 at 6:50 pm
To be more precise about your question what villages I am talking about: I stated there: Grubisno Polje – and all Serb villages around,
All men 16-60 years of age were sent to first conc. camp 'Danica' and from there to Jadovno. That was in may 1941, The women and
children later. There is plenty of documentations from the ustashas and others. Just see the list of the victims. These people were totally innocent farmers. Since my father was sent to conc. camp SIsak and my mother was killed by ustashas I went to find the other
members of the family and that's how I found empty villages. This is
well known fact to everybody. How I survived? By hiding under coat
and grace to good people who took me to Serbia to be with other
refugees from Croatia. My story is very typical for the Serbs in
NDH Why I am writing this to you? It will not change anything in your mind. For me you can be just an insect. To point to others
what kind of people Croatia has as 'patriots'. You are probably
offspring of one of these perpetrators which escaped justice.
You don't know much about the Croatian partisans to discuss it here.
If there had not been the Genocide against the Serb, Jews and Romas we would not discuss what partisans/chetniks did to you.
The Croat at end of war, to cover their backs, went to partisans and under Tito, the Croat/Slovene, escaped punishment.
We will not talk here about why the Serbs had been invited to defend
Croatia (Austria-Hungary Monarchy) from Turk invasion. Again, plenty
of historical documents. You can't destroy everything!
My apology here for my English. But I hope that my message is very clear. You did kill most of us but still some of us escaped ………..
vuk
February 15th, 2011 at 6:51 pm
I hope that you will save the original for myself.
bozh
February 15th, 2011 at 7:11 pm
i have nothing against bosnia splitting in three states if it had been done politicly and without coercion or threat of a military attack by a stronger side and supported by a neighboring country of same ethnicity and religion as that of strongest ethnos which threatens militarily a weaker ethnos.
however, the strongest volk, serbs, supported militarily by serbia and led by serb army officers have done just that; attacked bosniaks, slew about 146 k of them, expelled more than a mn of them, raping their women, etc., cannot go back and do it politicly now.
i think that even serbia sees this now. obviously serb communists-fascsist in '87-95 did not see that their criminal enterprise wld not work.
fortunately for the unfortunate croats [lead by ustashe] and unfortunate and much abused serbs [by chetniks, serbia] and bosniaks [also lead by fascists, mostly, or so i think] have to abandon fascism and institute socialism and right of individuals before rights of nations in order that bosnia functions well.
and bosnia functioned well until '90 under socialists. it cld again. but the fascist west may not like that.
so, we will see what happens. all signs bode unwell for bosnia! tnx
paleo
February 15th, 2011 at 10:47 pm
The Serbs wanted a political solution back in 1992. The Muslims and Croats decided to play the demographics and have a referendum expressly against the will of the Serbs, one of the constituent peoples. They came short, with less than 66%. Even so, they declared independence and then started atrocities against Serbs at Bosanski Brod, Kupres, and Derventa. The Serbs responded to the attacks. Everything you wrote is utter BS and nonsense.
Rad
February 15th, 2011 at 10:57 pm
You talked about Yugoslav diplomacy at their disposition. Wrong.
All key position in diplomacy were in non-Serbs hands.
So goes for top military heads.
The non-Serbs were prepared for their hour.
How about Stjepan Mesic who gave last stab to the
Yugoslav Federation and proudly admitted the fact.
Please, do some research regarding the facts of the events.
Many Croats are slowly opening their eyes. The best time of
their lives were in this much hated Yugoslavia. What is wrong
with you people? You are never satisfied – the centuries of frustrations.
Please, do some research before talking here
paleo
February 15th, 2011 at 11:02 pm
Don't spew nonsense. There was no (one-sided) genocide in Bosnia. Genocide victims don't run detention camps for civilians of their opposing side, e.g. Celebici, Viktor Bubanj, etc. In Srebrenica their Naser Oric & co. rampaged and murdered Serbs by the hundreds for years, and what response were they expecting? They sold their BS story and they themselves are the biggest victims because they believe that kind of self-pitying nonsense and it feeds their rage and desire for more atrocity against the Serb.
Curious how Croats get all sympathetic to Bosnian Muslims and Albanians when they could look closer to home to see the ethnic group they exterminated and expelled right next door. The fate of the Bosnian Muslims is a complex product of their ambiguous identity (by heritage and language, mostly Serbs but also Croats; by religion affiliated with the ruling Ottoman Empire) and their repeated siding with Western conquerors and fascists against the Serbs. In WWI, they eagerly got into bed with the Austro-Hungarian empire and rampaged Bosnian Serb lands. In WWII, they were Croatian flowers, fanatically joined the Ustashe and Nazi SS divisions, sent Serbs off to death camps and massacred them in their own homes, etc. In this recent war they bought into their own megalomaniacal delusions and Croatian lies and thought they could pull one on the Serbs with their "democratic" and "multiethnic" Izetbegovic (who imported mujahedeen into Bosnia). Each and every time they have utterly failed and in WWII and in the 1990s incurred Serb vengeance. With the loss of their Ottoman overlords, rather than making peace with their Serb brothers (brothers in everything but religion, many of them even still have the same surnames), they have sided with the Catholic powers to the West (Austria-Hungary, Nazi Germany, Independent State of Croatia, Tudjman's Croatia, etc.) and have failed in attaining their political goals.
Of course, the Bosnian Croat – Bosnian Muslim relationship is one fraught with cynical manipulation. In 1992 the Croats egged the Muslims on to a suicidal adventure so they (the Croats) could jump in and annex all of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Muslims used the Croats as referendum and multiethnicity fodder to get a 60%+ vote and sell the lie to the world that they really wanted a "multiethnic Bosnia" for everyone. In the end, their vicious 1993 conflict and the tensions they have to this day are a deserving punishment. Muslim delusions + Croat lies led to Muslims being crammed into the smallest territorial patch of the three nations in Bosnia and to the Croats being driven off into becoming nothing more than a token ethnic minority where they were once a constitutive nation. They made their bed: let them sleep in it.
paleo
February 15th, 2011 at 11:14 pm
I think it would be hilarious (and not that unrealistic) if the Croats join the EU (I'm sure they will, they have Danke Deutschland and the Holy "Hitler Jungend" Father to back them up), that they end up driving the destruction of the EU. Like the Slovenes, they are an utterly thankless bunch. Recently I heard that Slovenia was complaining about paying for Greek debt (of course, Greeks = Serbs = Greekoeasterners = schismatics = Asiatics = Vlachs = Orthodox Gypsies = Turks in the minds of these Austrian poodles). Funnily, Germany told them to shut up. I look forward to Mother Deutschland telling the Croat jackals to shut up and pay up, too.
Suvorov
February 16th, 2011 at 12:15 am
And now the part that for some reason didn't appear right away:
When it comes to the Croatian government, I think I would take it even a step further. Have you ever wondered where your government found the money to hire Ruder Finn when your country was ravaged by war and after a decade of economic recession?
"Only an idiot can believe that policies of great powers can be swayed by simply employing some PR company (as if those powers didn't have their own sources of information)"
Precisely. For example, at the exact same time in 1999 when NATO spokesman was announcing to the world about horrendous atrocities and even genocide supposedly committed in Kosovo, NATO's own internal communiques and reports (now declassified or leaked) stated precisely the opposite. There is now a good documentary that specifically focuses on Germany's role in all this deception. It's called "It Began with a Lie" (or "Es Begann mit einer Lüge" if you still prefer German).
It is true that many Serbs, including Milosevic until his very end, came to falsely regard the PR agencies as the root cause instead of mere symptoms of the extremely difficult geopolitical situation they found themselves in in early 1990s. I still find it irksome to hear that NATO would ever lift a finger because of anything Albanian American Civic League does. And yet, unfortunately, Milosevic died believing that, which revealed his total lack of understanding of the current state of Western politics.
"Normal people don't eternally dwell on the past bad things they went through"
No survivor of ustasa genocide wants to dwell on them, some survivors are courageous enough to tell the truth to their posterity and to any decent human being just for the sake of setting the record straight. No survivor enjoys thinking about those horrors, but something in the environment can trigger those memories. Someone who nearly drowned may be scared of swimming, someone who survived a concentration camp can be nervous when hears a dog bark. It's a natural human reaction. Do you still not get it?
"The only genocide in the nineties happened in Bosnia, by Serbs against Bosnian Muslims."
Another outlandish and completely unsupported accusation. If you want to consider a civil war which resulted in the death of about 2% of the prewar population of Bosnia (including Muslims, Serbs, Croats, soldiers and civilians) genocide, that's up to you.
"So I guess this Ruder and Finn story is a kind of amusement of yours."
No, what I find amusing is that you at first denied a well-known fact, and then pretended you didn't.
Tomislav
February 16th, 2011 at 3:44 am
To Vuk:
I see, the psychiatric condition known as schizophrenia Serbica on display again.
Tomislav
February 16th, 2011 at 3:47 am
So you are infantile after all? I was right.
Your notions of international policy is on the level of ten-year old kid.
Tomislav
February 16th, 2011 at 5:38 am
"I think it would be hilarious (and not that unrealistic) if the Croats join the EU (I'm sure they will, they have Danke Deutschland and the Holy "Hitler Jungend" Father to back them up), that they end up driving the destruction of the EU. Like the Slovenes, they are an utterly thankless bunch. Recently I heard that Slovenia was complaining about paying for Greek debt (of course, Greeks = Serbs = Greekoeasterners = schismatics = Asiatics = Vlachs = Orthodox Gypsies = Turks in the minds of these Austrian poodles). Funnily, Germany told them to shut up. I look forward to Mother Deutschland telling the Croat jackals to shut up and pay up, too."
Come on, Paleo, don't talk such nonsense. I think you know it damn well that Slovenes are as stingy as hell and that thta's the only reason why they refused to subsidize the Greek debt. And not because the Greeks are Orthodox. Remember the complaints of Slovenia in former Yugoslavia for that fact that they had to pay money for the underdeveloped parts of Yugoslavia?
And how come all this Yugonostalgia among Serbs? Where does it come from? On the one side you think Croats and Slovenes are utterly disgusting and despicable bunch, on the other hand you are so nostalgic about the country in which you lived together with those "monsters". What is it? Masochism or some other pathology?
Tomislav
February 16th, 2011 at 5:57 am
"Finally, no one demonizes Croatian people better than they themselves. The reason you had to hire PR agencies to demonize Serbs was that you had to distort their true character and actions in order to produce the desired effect. The reason no one needs to hire anyone to demonize you is that the worst demonization in your case is seeing you what for what you really are. I don't think Ruder and Finn could possibly for any money in the world make you look worse than you already do when you ridicule genocide survivors, say that nobody in Croatia cares about Jasenovac and that you have nothing to feel sorry for."
Bingo. You finally uncovered yourself. Demonization of Croats is OK for you, demonization of Serbs (presumed or real) is utterly evil. Typically Serb attitude. Others are bound to high moral standards, Serbs are not. Serbs can exact collective vengeance on some people whenever they wish, for the sake of some "historical grievances" (which can be centuries old), but if someone objects to such a principle, he gets dismissed as a "Serbophobe" (is that the magic word?) Or worse, if someone else dares advocate or implement collective vengeance on Serbs, Serbs cry "genocide" for the next one hundred years.
"Collective vengeance" for (real or presumed) historical grievances is not something that belongs to the vocabulary of the civilized world. And that's why the civilized world bombed Serbia (very deservedly), so that you learn a lesson.
Suvorov
February 16th, 2011 at 9:55 am
"So you are infantile after all? I was right.
Your notions of international policy is on the level of ten-year old kid."
Again, I do understand that you are unable to deal with facts. The best you could up with was denying a fact and then, after being confronted with incontrovertible evidence, pretending that you didn't deny it. Thus if I am akin to a ten-year old, then you are barely a fetus.
Suvorov
February 16th, 2011 at 10:07 am
"Bingo. You finally uncovered yourself. Demonization of Croats is OK for you, demonization of Serbs (presumed or real) is utterly evil. "
Can you really not think of something better than putting words in my mouth? When did I say it was OK to demonize Croats? Also, where did you get this "collective vengeance" from? When did I ever talk about vengeance, let alone collective vengeance?
vuk
February 16th, 2011 at 10:21 am
You are totally shameless in your obsessions with anything
Serbian. You can't stay away from this site where you come
with your fascist philosophies.and hatred. Mr. Malic article here is about the Egypt,not about Serbia or Croatia.
Should I apologize for surviving 70 years after – or should you to tell me that I am insane to remember? You incite here
bad memories. This is the purpose of you being here.
You do not know any Serbian people on personal level or any educated level. Are you offspring of ustashas living here in free world with your victims?
You do not have any idea about the Serbs on personal or
any educated level.
Suvorov
February 16th, 2011 at 10:30 am
paleo,
"I look forward to Mother Deutschland telling the Croat jackals to shut up and pay up, too. "
You are a bit of a sadist too, aren't you? But, as I said, I much prefer that kind of sadism.
Btw, is it just me who cannot recall you ever expressing any "Yugonostalgia"?
Suvorov
February 16th, 2011 at 10:50 am
Vuk,
Thank you for finding courage to share your tragic experience in NDH. I understood your English perfectly well.
"You are probably offspring of one of these perpetrators which escaped justice."
I have allowed that possibility myself, but one does not need to be the offspring of an ustasa to be brainwashed by poisonous propaganda that still very much prevails in Croatia.
bozh
February 16th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
so, bosnian serbs will get a political solution for bosnia; it stays whole as it had stayed whole for a millennium +, just what croats and bosniaks voted for in '92.
which now even bosnian serbs want as per command by serbs in serbia. when serbs demand diaspora serbs wage wars, they wage wars and when serbia says no more wars, diaspora serbs wage war no more.
serbia now goes that far to call croat'n serbs "extreme serbs". and when some of them say knin fell in belgrad or try to put blame on serbia, the interviewer immediately cuts them off and says: are u blaming us.
however as long they demonize, traduce, call names croat'ns they go on and on about defending selves.
and always go into a rant that they were threatened, sought peaceful solution by suggesting to croatian govt what it shld do.
but to no avail. croatia also wanted only war just like bosniaks.
i do not think that bosnian serbs wld have ever accepted wholeness of bosnia had it not been for nato and serbia.
hopefully for innocent and poor serbs of serbia [1,200,000 have no bathtub], chetniks wld not cause a civil war or asassinate serb leaders.
btw, 12 k croats and 8 k serbs fought with muslims. two generals, jovan divjak and stjepan siber were also in bosniak army. tnx
bozh
February 17th, 2011 at 2:54 pm
the extreme serbs in croatia [extreme, and according to some serbs] complained about losing their equal status as people; witch croats had.
it turned out that they only complained; eventually proving they did not want that, either.
now ustashe and serbs in bosnia affirm that each of these folks want to be constituents nations in bosnia.
natural, avoiding to tell us what "constituent" people means. readers, please, take a guess as to what chetniks and ustashe mean when they say that?
i think that the creators of herzeg-bosnia want a veto power in bosnian parliament. in short, nothing is done or agreed on unless they approve of it!
this guess is good for serbs also.
bearing in mind that both the serbs and croats waged wars for independence with aim to join their two respective mother countries, one can be reasonably certain they do not want to live in one country with muslims.
obviously, individual rights granted all citizens of bosnia occludes the [rigid-- or as serbs and croats mean] need for ethnic constituency; i.e., right to disagree with or annul any decision rendered by any combination of the other two constituent nations.
but, surely, serbia, croatia, and europe had seen this!!? looks like not, tho, since it had not done anything to stop the charade. it is been 15 yrs. judging by what one reads, bosnia does not exist!
who's making fool of whom, i wonder?
well, own respective serfs, mostly! tnx