When it comes to the former Yugoslavia (currently hiding behind the politically correct term "the Western Balkans"), normal rules simply don’t apply. International law is infinitely bendable, states can blink in and out of existence at one’s convenience, and conventions of diplomacy can be dispensed with. In Bosnia, for example, the U.S. and UK ambassadors now have more pull than the Imperial viceroy — who used to have the kind of absolute power the tyrants of yore could only dream of. The current coalition government in Serbia was brought together by envoys from Washington and London as well. For that matter, Washington has been pulling the strings in Serbia since October 2000, when a CIA-NED coup deposed Slobodan Milosevic and went on to become the template for "color revolutions" elsewhere in the world.
Since the 1990s, the Balkans have become a playground for power-drunk diplomats from Europe and America. Nowhere else in the world, not even in Afghanistan, do envoys of the Empire enjoy such power. Yet neither the envoys, nor the capitals they represent, seem to realize what they are doing is playing with matches in a tinderbox.
Love Thy Bomber
Last week, at a conference called "Serbia, Western Balkans and NATO — towards 2020," German ambassador to Belgrade said that Serbia joining the Alliance that bombed it in 1999 was not a matter of whether, but of when. Ambassador Wolfram Maas also reportedly said that the Serbs should teach their children that the bombing was just and necessary:
"I must criticize the Serbian government for still using the terms like ‘NATO bombing.’ Imagine walking down Kneza Milosa street [a place in downtown Belgrade where the bombed-out military and police HQ still stand] and your child asks, ‘Daddy, who did this?’ and you answer ‘NATO’. What, then, would you expect that child to think of NATO? As a young man in Germany, I saw ruins in my home town too, but I did not hate the people who did that, because there were people who could explain to me why they did it."
The notorious Roman emperor Caligula used to say, Oderint dum metuant — let them hate me, so long as they fear me. Fear is not enough for NATO, though. This instrument of the Atlantic Empire demands unconditional love from its victims. Nothing else will do.
And yes, while asking to be loved, Maas did just compare Serbia to Nazi Germany. German officials and the media have been doing this for almost two decades, perhaps seeking to emerge from under the cloud of Hitler and the Holocaust by projecting it onto the Serbs. Germany also used the Balkans conflicts to break its armed forces out of their post-1945 isolation; the Luftwaffe engaged in combat in both Bosnia and Kosovo, while the Bundeswehr were deployed as "peacekeepers."
In April 2007, Maas’s predecessor Andreas Zobel threatened Serbia with the loss of more territory if it continued to resist the plan to declare the NATO-occupied province of Kosovo an independent state. Official Belgrade bristled, and even sent a diplomatic protest to Berlin, but instead of expelling Zobel settled for a half-hearted apology.
Since then, however, the ambassador-installed regime did everything to make Zobel’s prediction become a reality. As if following instructions, they first gave the northern province of Vojvodina unprecedented powers, then set up "national minority councils," giving an official platform to the militant Islamic mufti, Muamer Zukorlic, to advocate an "autonomous Sanjak."
Any self-respecting government would bristle at Maas’s comparison with the Nazis. Remember, however, that this is a government that earlier this year embraced just such a comparison.
"Death to the State and Capitalism"
Compared to the excesses of her predecessors, Washington’s current envoy to Serbia, Mary Warlick, is downright demure. The most scandalous thing she has done so far was taking part in the "Belgrade Pride" parade on October 10, along with many other diplomats.
The march through downtown Belgrade was organized by the government. Far from promoting the rights of homosexuals, it abused them to deliver an object lesson in coercion to the still recalcitrant population of Serbia. In the end six thousand police battled some five thousand mostly young and angry rioters, while some three hundred politicians, diplomats, and professional activists from Serbia and abroad marched down the emptied Belgrade streets. One of them carried a sign that read "Death to the State and Capitalism," (photo) ironic given that the parade itself was a demonstration of statism at its worst. It is unclear what Warlick may have thought of the sign, if she noticed it at all.
The Curious Case of William Montgomery
Making waves isn’t just the province of standing ambassadors. No other envoy has made such a mark on the region as William Montgomery (Croatia, 1998-2000; Serbia, 2000-2004). Though he left under a cloud of scandal, Montgomery chose to remain in the region and write opinion columns from his villa on the Croatian coast. Officially, he is now just a private citizen. Yet he retained some ties to Foggy Bottom; the manuscript of his latest book, describing the U.S.-sponsored coup in 2000, was vetted by the State Department prior to publication.
After the Ovations: Struggling with Democratic Transition was just published in a Serbian translation. Its revelations, however, were nothing the Serbian public didn’t already suspect. The U.S. government was directly behind the "United Serbian Opposition," to the tune of $100 million? Old news. Much more interesting were his remarks to a Bosnian TV station earlier this week, when he said that Bosnia was an untenable country and its dissolution looked "realistic."
Montgomery’s quip prompted immediate denials from the U.S. embassy in Sarajevo, which reiterated Washington’s official commitment to the continued existence of the Bosnian state (as centralized as possible). It also drew denunciations from the viceroy’s office. But was Montgomery truly "off the reservation"? Last year, he stirred a similar storm of controversy with a New York Times op-ed, calling for (minimal) revisions to U.S. policies in the Balkans, Bosnia included. It is extremely unlikely a simple private citizen could get space in the NYT for a proposal the Imperial officialdom vehemently disagreed with. Which begs the question: who does Montgomery speak for?
From Dayton to Disaster
Fifteen years ago this week, peace talks began at the Wright-Patterson AFB outside Dayton, Ohio. It was the crowning achievement of Richard Holbrooke’s endeavors to threaten, bully, cheat, steal and bomb the way to a peace in Bosnia. In the end, he did end that war; but his callous disregard for the rules of civilized conduct also set a precedent that may well see the Balkans descend into another conflict, as soon as the strings holding up its current reality go the way of the Empire that put them in place.
Read more by Nebojsa Malic
- The Serbian Job – May 18th, 2012
- Tyranny of Good Intentions – May 3rd, 2012
- Between Hope and Despair – April 20th, 2012
- Hunger Games – March 29th, 2012
- Reality Rift – March 9th, 2012





Nikola
November 6th, 2010 at 4:46 am
Kosovo is Serbia.
bozh
November 6th, 2010 at 5:57 am
At least 50% of serbs, croats, slovenes, bosniaks, kosovars appear inegalitarian. This guesstimate appears valid for all europeans–save the swiss.
Swiss structure of governance appears more timocratic-pantisocratic than in any land. Swiss have not been at war for ca. 700yrs.
It seems, swiss were never ruled by 'nobility' and clergy [at least in degree] like serbs and croats.
have been.
Thus being seriously divided, hateful, angry, etc., twelve caponis cld rule them.
So there is an exemplar to emulate.
Let's face the fact: the FIRST CAUSE for ills that befalls on interethnic, intrapersonal, and interpersonal levels had been division of people into servant underpeople and master-owners of such people.
If that remains as is or becomes worse [ as in US or disunited nations and a region totally governed by large mafia] one can offer all sensationalism one wants and if avoiding to even postulate let alone affirm the FIRST CAUSE, we can expect worsenings.
Mafiosos rule europe. However, pie still being larger in many of these lands than in serbia or croatia, the natives appear much more content, peaceful, friendly among selves, than people of the balkans.
Had cvetkovic-macek deal been accepted by chetniks, yugoslavia wld have avoided invasions by germans and italians.
But elected govt had been deposed; bringing us chaos. Yet, neither cvetkovic nor macek were egalitarians.
However, the did seek to avoid the war! tnx
MichaelKenny
November 6th, 2010 at 6:45 am
An amusing piece of (increasingly desperate!) American Empire propaganda! Naturally, the Serbian government wasn't elected by the people of Serbia, we European Untermenschen aren't up to anything as civilised as that. And of course, for the same reason, Milosevic was overthrown by an American coup. And of course, Uncle Adolf can't be left out! It has to be the German Ambassador's unattributed "quote", and, just in case we didn't get the message, the word "Luftwaffe" is used. And, of course, the UK is still America's best boy (i.e. Cameron's defence cuts mean nothing!). Even the homophobe card is played! The only question is whether anyone who is so redneck as to believe any of this would visit this site in the first place.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 8:45 am
No, the Serbian government wasn't elected by Serbian voters. I doubt any Serb expected former allies of Milosevic to form a coalition with the people who sent their leader to The Hague.
Which, by the way, is seen by German establishment as some kind of launderette that will wash Germany of its crimes by asserting that the people Germany most victimised along Jews, Poles and Russian were also genocidal.
As for the "gay pride" in Belgrade, I already wrote about it in comments on a previous column by Mr Malic and I share his point of view. It had nothing to do with LGBT rights. It had all to do with foreigners asserting their occupation of the Serbian capital. Now if gay rights NGOs in Belgrade weren't financed by the very same countries who bombed Serbia and if they weren't instilling in Serbian minds that all gays are actually quislings, maybe there could be progress on how people perceive them.
Karl
November 6th, 2010 at 11:43 am
You are completely wrong on every other count, but at least you like the Cvetković-Maček deal so I am giving you a thumbs up.
andy
November 6th, 2010 at 11:50 am
America should have minded its own business.
MvGuy
November 6th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Michael Kenny doesn't sound all that Balkan…and your grasp on the situation there sounds more like a a few too many Vodkas than on the ground knowledge…..
And you seem to be saying that Nebojsa Malic is an apologist for the AngolAmerican conquest machine, AKA empire…………
I see Nebojsa Malic's work as a condemnation of the empire…!!!!
"And, of course, the UK is still America's but boy (i.e. Cameron's defence cuts mean nothing!)." No one memtioned Cameron or the U.K. role in the Balkans since "New Labor" got it's richly deserved deserts…
Someone is losing their marbles,. I'll read the new comments and thumbs to see..
Bianca
November 6th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
You appear to be utterly clueless on anything Balkan.
But the money US, German, UK and other EUforia -based meddling, is stunning! If only taxpayers knew! Here are the armies of high level, mid-level and grunts of all kinds doing nothing but manging the bushes into which the natives have huddled following an entirely externally funded civil war! Money, money, money. Poor taxpayers.
As for natives, they will survive this, as they did other attempts to reorganize, reshuffle, redraw and restructure their villages, barns, fences and lanes. And in the words of an oldie but goodie musical, Chess, the song — Anthem — expresses what every native feels. Borders? What borders. My land's only borders run around my heart!
bozh
November 6th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
i wonder why my posts need to be held back and approved before they appear! tnx
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Michael Kenny sounds like an Englishman. No honest stance except the belief that he is in the know of something mere mortals are unaware of. His own interests. I don't know where Serbian fascination for anything English comes from. Personally, I admit that I prefer to have the German as foes than the English, a matter of capacity to deal with viciousness.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Mine are often held back too, and sometimes I wish they were even more often, because in the fire of action I sometimes say things I regret having said. I even asked the moderator to delete some comments I made. They're only trying to keep ths space civil.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Bianca, I agree on a lot with you, and because I like you, let's please try avoid qualifications such as "clueless" and let's try stick to with facts. Facts speak in favour of Serbs. I do admit that I sometimes cede to the temptation to provoke, but please, no ad hominem attacks. OK, my opinion of the English is indeed "ad hominem", but I've met too many of them.
paleo
November 6th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Cvetkovic-Macek was greater Croatian appeasement just like Munich-Sudetenland was for Germany. Whole areas of Bosnia that had never been part of Croatia in history (e.g. eastern Herzegovina and Romanija) were given to Croatia, even though the people there were entirely Serbs and Muslims. The fact that Macek, like a traitor, left Belgrade and went to Zagreb and asked the HSS followers to support Pavelic is proof that Pavelic was the fulfillment of Croatia's longstanding desire – an independent state, at ANY COST.
Croats were taught for centuries by their Hungarian and Venetian rulers to dislike Serbs because they are "schismatic." They were further taught to hate them out of jealousy because Croats were serfs of the Hungarians and Serbs were free men loyal to the Austrian Emperor. This all goes way back. Read Ante Starcevic's and the Frankists' work. Read how Croats killed Serbs in Serbia during WWI, because of how much they loved their Austro-Hungarian bosses. Way before Pavelic.
The monstrous truth is that most Croats supported an independent Croatia that persecuted its Serb minority (1/3 of the population) through genocide, expulsion, and forced conversion. They cheered for Nazi troops entering Zagreb whereas the Serbs of Belgrade protested in the streets and bombed Belgrade shunned the Nazi invaders. Those Croats who resisted did so not so much out of sympathy for the NDH victims or some sense of justice, but either because they were communists and wanted to make a revolution (using terrorized Serb refugees as their cannon fodder) or because they were angry that Pavelic "gave" Dalmatia to Italy and they wanted places like Fiume and Zara and Ragusa and even Istria to become Croatian.
In the end, the Croat clericofascists won. They stole Italian land, expelling Italians and throwing thousands to their deaths into the foibe of Istria and Quarnero. They exterminated hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia, and then sent thousands more after the war to settle into Vojvodina. And then, after everything that Serb-led Yugoslavia gave them – Dalmatia free of Italians, Istria free of Italians, Srem, Baranja, Dubrovnik, etc. they destroyed that country, expelled 2/3 of the remaining Serb victims of genocide, helped ignite war in Bosnia between Serbs and Muslims (where the Croats are only 15% anyway), accused their victims of being the aggressors, and never apologized or provided compensation for anything.
These fascist stooges can have their ill-gotten land full of Serb mass graves and Italian-built towns, but God saw everything and God will avenge all those victims. There will be a judgment for everything that was done, if not in this life then in the afterlife.
paleo
November 6th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Vojkan, having corresponded with some Germans and seen their views from the side, my impression is that Germany was only denazified with respect to the Jewish victims. The attitude towards their Slav victims is often just as bad as it was before and during the war. Poles are primitive, stupid, thieves. Russians are dictatorial, rapists, Mongoloid. I don't know what their views are on Serbs, but going from the above it's probably that they are Byzantine bandits who had WWI and WWII coming to them.
bozh
November 6th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
Croatia in '41 was militarily much weaker than serbia; thus, croatia or macek cld not have dictated terms of agreement to serbia.
Majority of bosnians never wanted to join serbia or croatia. Macek did not agree with the croat'n puppet govt.
It seems croatia had a much stronger communist party than serbia. Much of the pop from croat'n littoral had joined partisans.
Also many serbs of croatia joined partisans. On the other hand, ustashe and chetniks fought also alongside italians and germans against partisans.
Many partisans did not '91 want break-up of yugoslavia. After serb army attack against croatia, some communists did join tudjman.
But only after seeing that serb army was out to expand. This is about clear as it gets. tnx
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
If only you weren't as correct as you are. The problem is that most people listen to their ruling "elites", they prefer not to use reason, nor logic. The Serbs, or the French, are no better. It's our herd instinct I guess. The wolves in us obeying the dominant animals. The German listen to Wagner instead of Brahms. Look for a Wagner's quote on Mendelsohn, and Jews in general, and you'll know what I mean. I still love Bach, Beethoven and Brahms. But not all Germans think in clichés. Brahms, Goethe. England as a whole is a cliché.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Thumbs? Some people use them as a palliative for their inability to articulate argument and facts. Beware of people who have their clothes custom-tailored but buy manufactured opinions.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Funny thing. My answer to you got to be a matter of review, but my answer to MvGuy didn't. To cut the story short, you are completely correct. If ever my initial answer gets published, you'll know why I think so.
paleo
November 6th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
No, bozh, it's not clear at all. Macek did agree with the Croatian puppet government. That's why he told the HSS followers to support the NDH. That's why he abandoned the Cvetkovic-Macek government in Belgrade and went to Zagreb in 1941-1945. The whole story he sold of "he went to be with his people" was utter crap. That's why in 1945 he fled to France and then the USA. He supported the NDH because his goal all along was not Croatian autonomy in Yugoslavia but outright independence. And he had no problem with an NDH that violently exterminated the Serbs, Jews, and Roma. Had he had a problem with that, he would have left Croatia before 1945, joined the resistance movement, or committed suicide. Zelimir Mazuranic, grandson of the famous Ivan Mazuranic, committed suicide in 1941 in response to what the NDH was doing.
As I said before, the Croats in Dalmatia supported the Communists because they were angry about Italian occupation. They wanted Dalmatia for Croats and for Croatia and the Communists promised them that. Had Dalmatia been given to the NDH, they would have no problem with that and probably wouldn't join the Communists at all.
Not "many" Serbs, but rather the vast majority (i.e. 80-90%) of the Partisans in Croatia and Bosnia were Serbs who wanted to protect themselves from NDH genocide. Croats were important as Communist organizers because pre-war the Communist movement amongst the western Serbs was not that strong (they supported the Serbian king). There were many Croats in the Communist movement because they wanted to overthrow the king.
The story that resistance began with the Communists in July 1941 is a lie. It began in June 1941 in eastern Herzegovina and was a response to the Muslim massacres of Serbs in that area. It was spontaneous and it wasn't Communist at all.
As for the Chetniks, in Croatia and Bosnia they were neutral regarding the Germans and supported the Italians. Why? Because the Italians were the only force that protected Serbs and didn't turn them over to the Ustase. The Partisan leadership had no problems with Ustasa massacres because they drove Serbs into the Partisan ranks. As long as the Ustase were rampaging, the Partisans became stronger and stronger. The Italians had a problem with the Partisans, they realized that the Ustase massacres of Serbs were fueling the Partisan movement, and that's why they did a lot to prevent massacres and to protect Serb (and Jewish) refugees.
Croatian Communists betrayed Yugoslavia because they never cared about Yugoslavia. Croat Communists were fighting for overthrowal of the Serb-dominated Kingdom and for the incorporation of Italian-claimed Dalmatia into Croatia. They never wanted a strong Yugoslavia and certainly not one in which the Serb minority in Croatia had any sort of constitutive rights. They needed Yugoslavia in 1918 to kick the Italians out, they needed Yugoslavia in 1945 to prevent an independent Serbia from exacting war reparations and territorial concessions for Croatian Nazi collaboration and all the beastly monstrosities the NDH did to Serbs, and then in 1991 they no longer needed Yugoslavia for anything. So they decided to kick out and kill the Serbs because it eliminated Serbia's claims to territories Croats have always wanted for themselves but have been majority Serb for centuries.
That's why it is so easy to explain how Communists like Tudjman and Bobetko easily switched to become neo-Ustase. Back in 1941 they were Ustase "lite" who supported totalitarian methods to maximize Croatian territory, they were probably angry that the NDH had "betrayed" Croats by "giving" Dalmatia to Italy. As for the nation, most Croats were always clericonationalists, many rabidly so, so it was easy for them to support both the Ustase in 1941 and the neo-Ustase in 1991.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
And the Russian scare the hell out of Germans. -:)
MvGuy
November 6th, 2010 at 9:21 pm
sorry
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 9:36 pm
Why do some of my inoffensive comments go to trash while some of the more offensive get to be reviewed? The only logical answer I have is software. From my freelance software consultant point of view, whoever sold you yours is a crook. That's why I struggle finding contracts.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 9:37 pm
Sorry I meant "don't get to be reviewed"
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 11:49 pm
For God's sake, stop yielding clichés. Get some education. Real education. Real culture. Your quest for conformity and your ignorance of History are simply sickening.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 6th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
That reminds of an oops that got a lot of thumbs down. -:)
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 7th, 2010 at 12:19 am
From experience, there are Germans who are too happy that the Serb have been given a bad name, and there are Germans who, having nothing to do with the bad things their brethren did, feel the bad name given to Serbs as the bad name given to them. Serbs as a whole surely have less crimes on their conscience than Germans as a whole, but I don't believe in collective conscience, I think the thing called "conscience" is sort of personal.
theothercanada
November 7th, 2010 at 12:27 am
Perhaps the benevolent and humanitarian war criminals can open reeducation camps in occupied Serbian lands?
Croaticus
November 7th, 2010 at 6:06 am
Really??? You finally discovered how extremely bad we are? We are genetically criminal, our whole country is a crime, we are collectively guilty for all those genocides? And we never even ask apology from those "poor, eternally suffering" (my eyes are full of tears while I am writing this) Serbies, but we prefer making jokes out of Serb "suffering"? Damn it, now I won't be able to sleep for several days. I am sooo ashamed.
bogi666
November 7th, 2010 at 6:54 am
The countries of the former Yugoslavia are an experiment in extra-governmentalism using NATO to impose a system of governance without the permission of the population brought under the edict of NATO. NATO lost its utility after the collapse of the USSR, so a scheme had to be concocted to keep it armed and funded, an artificial method which was justified by the indiscriminate bombing of the Clinton administration who should have been declared a war criminal.
Scott
November 7th, 2010 at 8:36 am
I am sad that Maas sees his own country's history that way. It isn't as simple or black and white or Axis = bad; Allied = good.
paleo
November 7th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
I think the Serbs of Serbia had no idea what Croats were like. The Serbs in Krajina did. Afterall, you and your Hungarian bosses were always getting your panties in a twist over Serb autonomy from serfdom. Only now, after 1941, do the Serbs of Serbia know what Croats and Croatia are like.
And don't give me that "collective guilt" nonsense. Of course there is no collective guilt, but there is collective responsibility. Germans have dealt with the Holocaust. Croats have not been denazified. All they know are "Chetniks", 20,000 died in Jasenovac, there were no pits, there were no forced conversions, hundreds of thousands of Serbs were not murdered, Jews were really killing Gypsies in Jasenovac, Stepinac was a Roman Catholic saint, etc.
Give me a break. The rest of the world and your German bosses love you because you're their lapdogs and you have a nice country, geographically speaking. The islands, the beaches, the Dalmatian towns, the lakes and forests and mountains are nice. But if they knew that the ashes of thousands of Serb and Jewish victims are buried on Pag Island, that Mt. Velebit has 40,000 Serbs and 2000 Jews stuck in its pits (Saranova jama, etc.), that near the Marian shrine of Medjugorje there are pits with thousands of Serb women and children victims (Surmanci, Golubinka), that the River Sava was a main killing field in which Serbs, Jews, and Roma were dumped, that the remnants of the people who actually built Dubrovnik, Split, Zadar, Rijeka, etc. (i.e. Dalmatian Latins/proto-Italians) were hounded out, expelled, or killed by Croat Communist swine at the end of the war, etc. – suddenly Croatia would not seem so nice.
And worst of all, you are not even sorry about it. You celebrate it, you have Marko Perkovic Thompson singing songs about Serbs floating down the Neretva and the Black Legion and tens of thousands of Croats go to his concerts.
bozh
November 7th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
If people get sickened by my comments, they don't have to read them. I do not write for serbs or to serbs who post on these site.
Bosniaks and croats, represent majority of bosnian pop. They did not want to join serbia. Serbs and bosniaks, outnumber croats of bosnia. They did not want to join croatia.
Croats have betrayed bosniaks after voting with them to secede from tito's yugoslavia. Majority of bosnian croats even today worship pavelic. Croatia proper saw the writing on wall; probably while tudjman was alive: bosnia wld never be dismembered.
however, it seems, chetniks and ustashe [highly fascistic] want another go at it. These people appear much deluded by their priests and 'educators'.
They still worship criminal minds like domagoj, tvrtko, francetic, boban, karadjorgjevic, tomislav, nemanja, dusan, mihajlovic. At this time no one appears able to make them abbandon their delusions. tnx
bozh
November 7th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Btw? Why is there no posts from croats, kosovars, or bosniaks?
Hrebeljanovic
November 7th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Amen.
bozh
November 7th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
More than half of croats south of zagreb appear only partly slavic. Even as late as 12th century citizens of the byzantine towns were mostly of illyrian ancestry.
Even today, people along the littoral, have black or brown eyes and darker skin. And even the last and first names differ from the names of real croatians.
N. croatians are closer to czech language and appearance. That explains why bosnian croats did not want us in greater croatia.
I am of slavic and illyrian ancestry. There was italians in coastal towns. I think they constitued ab. 10% of the pop of any city or town.
Italian soldiers, mostly from calabria and other s. italy regions, were kind people. But not black shirts. In my home town of sibenik, fascist have executed ab. 200 communist-socialist.
My dad who worked with partisans was interned. I think that he had not been executed because he had three small children.
Sibenik lost 1k people in war against ustashe, chetniks, germans, and italians. Some historians assert that ustashe have not controled much of bosnia or croatia.
Jews and serbs had plenty of unoccupied land to escape to. They cld have easily gone to dalmatia for safety since italy had refused to deliver jews to ustashe or germans.
Drazha mihajolvic did not ever wage battles against germans for ab. two yrs; plenty of time for them to reach serbia or dalmatia, istria and find safety.
serbs cld have also gone to serbia; i am sure that nedic wld not have turned them back. Serbia also had a puppet govt from '41-45.
In add'n, the best german troops were fighting russians and not partisans. I do not evaluate as factual what partisans, chetniks, or ustashe say.
Truth cannot be had, anyway. Half the serbs may not be slavic either. Whatever, who cares. People are people. If they wld only stop evaluating as true what ustashe, chetniks, and priests are telling them, every thing wld be ok.
But they, too, had been victimized by own people. And one can–and does too often–tnx victimize people by word as much as by deed.
Anyhow, i am voting communist next time. I am egalitarian. And i despise our 'nobles' and priests– the root of all evil on interethnic level and others. tnx
Hrebeljanovic
November 7th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
..and your posts make you what?
Care to explain who the "Kosovars" and "Bosniaks" are?
You are mixing apples and oranges on purpose, aren't you?
Good ol' sabotage schooling, yet still easy to read.
Klyde
November 7th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
America should have started minding it's own business in 1914.
Hrebeljanovic
November 7th, 2010 at 5:04 pm
Want to learn real history of the Balkans and ex-Yugoslavia? Read Paleo's posts on this column, they are true word for word.
bozh
November 7th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
Another attack on person. another avoidance to posit own facts, opinions, or conclusions. If this site continues to allow such uncivilized behavior and hatred, does the site expect for people to talk people who behave that way.
And i have to wait for moderation– really censorship????
MvGuy
November 7th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
OOOOOOOOO Sorry… I accidentally added a thumbs down to this post…..so i gave all your other posts a thumbs up..!!
MvGuy
November 7th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
What [exactly] is it that you believe needs to be censored..??
vesko
November 7th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
That's precisely what they actually did. It was either "eff the serbs", or Clinton's impeachment over the b-job business.
bozh
November 7th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
I do not think that it adds to knowledge if people get personal. It wld be better for people not only not to attack the poster or writer, but also not to attack even what people say.
A much better way wld be to juxtapose own facts, conclusions and then proffer a solution.
So, it is not a case of censure, but case of behaving in a civilized manner.
I use a four step method in my thinking;
1) posit salient facts that pertain
2) make conclusions from these facts
3) postulate or affirm root cause [s]
4) offer a solution
Once u blame, accuse, individuals, or look at faults of individuals–and we all have faults and nobody can be right 100% of the time– we are not going anywhere.
One also needs to understand that not all descriptive utterances are actually factual.
Eg, Cvetkovic-macek deal i evaluate as factual; from which i drew the conclusion that had the yugoslav govt not been deposed, yugoslavia wld have avoided the war.
This is not a fact, but a conclusion. We all conclude. This shld not be then loooked on as character flaw.
The problem arises when people posit nondescriptive statements; i.e., telling people what
croats ARE and not saying what they did or which croats actually did the thing spoken about.
If serbs on this site want to present to us facts in dispute, they need to say that that's how they evaluate them, but others may or do not evaluate serb facts as facts.
That's all that is required for a fruitful inquiry.
Solely and forever lamenting and which all scribes i know of do and never offering a single solution or cause, is not educational.
More cld be said.
Croaticus
November 7th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
Indeed, how terrible. I won't be able to sleep for the next ten days more, after reading this heart breaking account. Thanks for clarifying things, about how collectively responsble we are. Now I've seen the light. I have to leave the keyboard now because I am again all in tears (although from laughter and not from sorrow).
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 5:09 am
You don't evaluate facts, you parrot official history, and btw, return studying logic, your reasoning is flawed at its root. It is exactly the same as the one you attack.
If your so keen on facts, deign to expose some proving that Nemanja or Mihajlovic were criminals or is it just your perception?
Karl
November 8th, 2010 at 5:27 am
That is incorrect. The Maček-Cvetković agreement was a compromise solution that could (and probably would) have made Yugoslavia a viable state for the long term. There is a lot that could be said about many of its aspects and details of which the borders of Croatian Banovina was one, but the truly improtant thing here is the big picture. It represented a turning point in that finally there was political will to solve the nationality issue, and on the basis of negotiations between popular Croatian and Serbian leaders (as opposed from via a dictate from the king, or later the CP).
It was on the whole a decent enough deal, as testified by the fact that the 27th March putschists as one of their first acts in power reassured the Croat leadership that the putsch was not directed against it, and invited them to participate in the government.
Maček was a moderate Yugoslav patriot as were basically all Croatian politicans of the time (even if this is emberassing and largely denied by Croats today) . He did not issue a statement calling on Croats to support the Pavelić regime. He called on them to remain peaceful and cooperate with the new authorities. There is a qualitative difference between the two. He then immediately retired from politics and remained under surveilance by the new regime.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 11:51 am
So you are Croat, aren't you? No need to pretend otherwise, your vocabulary and your grammar speak volumes. You know, we can live without you, why can't you live without us?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 11:54 am
The funny thing is, I know remember I knew someone from Zagreb while I did my military service as an "occupier" in Ljubljana who was a lot like you in character. Some kind of Croatian syndrom? Yugoslavia without Serbs, what a dream! An impossible dream though…
paleo
November 8th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Why are Croats all of the sudden concerned with Hungarians in Vojvodina or Muslims in Sandzak? Further proof of how Croats drink irrational Serbophobia in their mother's milk.
paleo
November 8th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Karl, Cvetkovic-Macek happened because Prince Paul knew what might happen in WWII. He hoped to appease the Croats beforehand so as to temper or prevent the creation of the NDH. All it did was soften the ground in the area for the Croats to more easily assemble the NDH, especially in regions with practically no Croats living in them, such as eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Indeed I am very happy that Cvetkovic-Macek was not reconstituted after the war, lest we have the Croatian border of the present day stretch to Zemun. Perhaps when the next world war happens, their greed will extend to Belgrade and Novi Sad as well.
Macek wasn't a Yugoslav patriot at all. Had he been, he would have stayed in Belgrade and either left the country with the king or joined the Serbian or Croatian resistance movement. He ran to Zagreb, he provided no resistance whatsoever, only collaboration. And after the war he fled along with the Ustase. He was a traitor, pure and simple, and his goal all along was an independent Croatia at any cost.
We must move beyond the delusion that Yugoslavia was a "home of all nations." It wasn't. The 1990s clearly show us that Yugoslavia was primarily a Serb project and a Serb desire, with which most Montenegrins and Macedonians were content (although some of the latter clearly were not, VMRO and all), and in which Slovenes, Croats, Muslims, Albanians, Hungarians, and Volksdeutschers were unhappy. Slovenia showed that in 1991, whereas the other groups I mentioned demonstrated that in 1941 and in all cases mentioned excepting Volksdeutchers and Hungarians, also in 1991-today.
Serbs must face reality. They were duped into fighting for a country that was in their own imaginations, into grabbing Maribor from Austria and trying to seize Trieste from Italy in order to expand a Slovene state and society that has been consistently Germanophile and Balkanophobe. They were duped into evicting Italy out of Dalmatia in order to expand Croatia, of permitting the loss of the sea to the Serb people (who in history had always had access to the sea ever since entering the Balkans in the 6th century) via the Communist creation of a "Montenegrin" ethnic group (and Milo Djukanovic's efforts in that regard are just a continuation), they accepted the creation of autonomous regions in Kosovo and Vojvodina and the Macedonian republic, all of which are artificial creations and had no basis. A false Macedonian ethnicity was fabricated out of thin air to somehow differentiate a people with little national conscience to distinguish them from Bulgarians and Serbs. Kosovo was put under Albanian rule, the rule of the same gang that persecuted Serbs out Kosovo in WWII and before and after. Vojvodina, with a Serb supermajority, somehow needed to be autonomous because of ethnic minorities (but Krajina, Slavonia, Istria, etc. didn't). All of this was the groundwork and foundation for the destruction of the Serbian people and for the reversal of all of Serbia's territorial and economic gains from the Balkan Wars onwards – gains that were legitimate from either historical or demographic standpoints or both. Gains that were paid with the lives of millions of people.
So now, let us move beyond Yugonostalgia, recognize our losses, and stop deluding ourself that we have anything to do with pan-Slavic movements or unions with "brotherly" peoples or rot of that kind. It is time that once and for all the Serbian nation looks out for its own interests first and others can look after theirs.
paleo
November 8th, 2010 at 12:39 pm
My grandmother was Slovenian. The behavior of the Slovenian branch of my family, at least those that I know, was honorable in 1941 but shameful in 1991. My great aunt was a Slovenian refugee expelled by the Germans on cattle trains and ended up in a village in Sumadija. She worked as a communist resistance organizer of the Kosmaj odred. Her father, mother, brother, and she all found refuge in Serbia from 1941-1945. Her brother was killed by Nazis and Muslims in Sandzak, her sister (my grandmother) fought as a Partisan against the Nazis in Serbia, Kosovo, and Bosnia. Her father was a deep believer in Yugoslavia and opposed German domination in Slovenia in Austro-Hungarian times. She lived and worked in Belgrade for years after the war.
My great aunt, in 1991, was so hysterically pro-Slovenian and anti-Serbian, that when my other great aunt said that it would be best that Yugoslavia remain intact, she started making put-downs about how Belgrade was once a Bulgarian city (when? medieval times?). She called the JNA in Slovenia an "occupying army" and avidly supported the Slovene "partisans" who shot at unarmed JNA soldiers.
But, in truth, the seeds were there before. My mother remembers in the 1970s how when she signed her name in Cyrillic, my great aunt pointed to the signature and said, mockingly, "what is that?" as if it were the writing of aliens or beasts. I think that says it all. Yugoslavia, never again.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Never again indeed. Do you know that a Karadjordjevic apologised for the creation of Yugoslavia?
And tell your great aunt, if she's still alive, that Belgrade, and my hometown Nis were founded by Celts. People with a little older civilisation than her Austrians.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
And btw, is Bulgarian something like pejorative in her mind? After all, they're both in NATO.-:)
Karl
November 8th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Cvetković-Maček agreement was struck before the outbreak of WWII. Had it been reconstituted Sarajevo and Banja Luka would be a part of Serbia today. In any case the borders were not set in stone and could have changed at some later negotiations. The important thing is that there ceased to be insistence on Integralist Yugoslavism and that the will for reform, compromise and negotiations was shown. With that all would be much easier.
Maček during the war advised a strategy of waiting. It is a strategy that was adopted by most occupied nations and also a strategy that many contemporary Serbian nationalists lament was not adopted by the Serbs. Therefore what is good for the goose is good for the gander. You can not on one hand lament the fact that the Serbs did not do everything in their power to stay out of the war and spare themselves so many loses, but on the other proclaim Maček a traitor for advising his people the same and taking to heart his own recommendations.
You historical narrative makes for a good morality tale as seen by the many recommendations for the future that it includes, but it makes for poor history. You make the mistake of seeing past events through the lenses of recent history. But actually attitudes change with time, sometimes rapidly. The attitudes of Slovenes, Croats or Serbs or whoever else in 1991 are not the necessarily the attitudes of 1921 or 1881 or whenever. History is too complex for us to be able to fully understand it if we start with such simplistic assumptions.
The first thing you may start re-checking here is the level of animosity towards the Germans in Slovenia, your "consistently Germanophile" assumption is truly an outrageous one.
paleo
November 8th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
She is no longer alive and died in the early 2000s. Indeed, she was paralyzed by a stroke in the mid 1990s, shortly after the war began. I didn't mean to speak ill of a deceased relative, one who was very important in my father's life. I know he loved her, but he doesn't love her politics.
As for the Bulgarian point, she was trying to just put down Serbs a la "even your capital was founded by someone else. Haha." That was the sense I got.
As for the "JNA=occupying army," she said that to my grandfather, from Aleksinac, who not only survived a Bulgarian massacre attempt in 1915 but also escaped two German execution attempts in WWII (a hanging in Nis, and execution by firing squad in Jajinci), survived narrowly a mine explosion in Bosnia, and was among those Serbs sent by Tito out of Bosnia to take Trieste for Slovenia (where 8000+ died, of course no Slovenes died for Trieste). After the war he was throwing into Goli Otok for 7 years too.
It was a lesson in refugee ingratitude. Albright was another case study. I have another story concerning a Kosovo Albanian refugee we had in our home in 1999 who turned out to be a disgusting backstabber too. As a result, I am wary of many refugees.
paleo
November 8th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
Nobody wants to discuss anything with you because all you do is repeat hackneyed cliches, you have no fresh facts to support anything, you have no real arguments, your sentences lack logical flow, your punctuation is terrible.
The fact that you call the medieval rulers of Croatia, Serbia, and Bosnia criminal minds and throw them into the same basket as Ustase cutthroatsJure Francetic and Rafael Boban just shows how ridiculously ill-educated you are. Please, keep quiet and let others do the talking.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
-:)
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
If it can be of any comfort, if you only knew how many treasons I've seen in my life… Ideology is the worst enemy of love. Keep faith.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
And I too have family that is not Serbian. I have profiles on Facebook and MySpace, you can contact me there and you'll know that you're not the only one. Except that in my case, I hold a grudge against Serbs who discarded their roots.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Of course, I only mean that we exchange addresses there.
B..
November 8th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
This "Croaticus" appears to be just another fascist bloodthirsty beast, with his appalling attempts to make the genocidal jokes on account of several HUNDRED THOUSAND civilians (mostly Serb, but Jewish and Roma as well) brutally murdered in his beloved "Independent State of Croatia" 1941-1944. Only reading his idiotic "really? I won't be able to sleep for days" is enough to make any sane and Balkan-familiar person sick. Don't waste your breath on this Pavelicesque vermin.
Stojko
November 8th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
America is very poor at minding its own business, but I wholeheartedly agree that USA should have been minding its own business even when it sent the Marines to attack the Barbary Pirates in Tripoli (1801) America has the luxury of two vast oceans and does not need to cross them armed to the teeth. Why else would Osama attack the WTC? Why else would the Murrow building be bombed (Oklahoma City) JFK killed, Bay of pigs, Viet-Nam – almost every single sending of the US armed forces was a poor decision.
Stojko
November 8th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
Where does your strikingly profound knowledge of historical facts come from? I am astonished to learn what you brought out in the light of day.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 8th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
There are people here who either do things on command and they are therefore incapable of using anything but their index as their thumb, or there are people…
Well, I don't want to waste time doing a dissertation on your frustrations. You don't have the "courage" to back up your opinions with facts. Or is it "courage"? The only reason they exist is that people have more important things to do than wasting time on explaining you why you're wrong. Just reflect on how many innocents suffer because of your self-righteousness.
paleo
November 8th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
I'm not wasting breath on that Nazi beast. Here's another one. This Nazi beast, a mainstream Croatian journalist, made this little "program" on national TV. The agency fired her, but I wonder if they would do the same if she made the program on Serbs or Roma. Unreal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXbDMm6_btQ
Vedrana Rudan and "Croaticus" = most Croats. Most decent Croats, like Antun Miletic, run away from that Ustasha hellhole as soon as they can and go abroad.
Rad Vuckov
November 8th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
Of course Bozh or Bozho is Croat. Obsessed still with the Serbs or
"chetniks' after Oluja. Also he presents their old racist theories here.
He just can't quit,
Croaticus
November 8th, 2010 at 11:51 pm
Yeah, you guessed it right. Serbies who eternally whine about their victimhood in the second world war are mostly objects of mockery.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 9th, 2010 at 12:18 am
The impression I had when I first read one of his comments was that he was a serbophobic yugoslavist Croat. They all want Yugoslavia to return, with Serbs not existing but feeding them.
You know, peasants only worth of cultivating soil to sustain smalltown bourgeois. Unfortunately, that's what Belgrade Serbs think too.
paleo
November 9th, 2010 at 7:19 am
What part of Krajina did you come from?
Croaticus
November 9th, 2010 at 7:49 am
There needs to be some revenge for the year 1991. If the year 1991 (the Serbian aggression) hadn't happened, there wouldn't be revenge killings in 1995 (Operation Storm), Serbs would be 12% and not 4,5% of the population of Croatia etc. Because of the year 1991, many Croats cheered at NATO bombings of Serbia, many sympathize the independent Kosovo and, in general, anything that harms Serbia and Serbs. Those people don't really care about Kosovo Albanians (they tend to be disliked in the popular perception in Croatia), it's just Schadenfreude at seeing Serbia and Serbs humiliated and harmed.
This vengeful impulse will die down with time, I believe.
Croaticus
November 9th, 2010 at 7:53 am
Please, B., give me some more of this foaming-at.-the-mouth fanaticism, pseudo-moralizing and hysteria. It's amusing. LOL
B..
November 9th, 2010 at 7:57 am
Yeah, the most bizarre aspect of that long-lasting Nazi-style, kill-your-Serb-and-win-a-badge-of-honor-today, blood-and-soil type of hatred that permeates Croatian mainstream discourse for more than a century, lies in its monstrously careful cultivation. We're not talkin' about some obscure pack of basement psychopaths, it's THE POLITICAL/CULTURAL standard itself. Bishops and cardinals at Thompson's concerts, along with TENS of thousands of Nazi youths, open denial of ANY regret over country's Nazi past (both Tudjman and Mesic were notorious for their Pavelic-glorifying sickness), and an insincere, fabricated, not-to-fool-anyone kind of makeup in recent years, where the whole genocidal project of Hitler-sponsored "Independent State of Croatia" is being shamelessly denied at state-sponsored commemorations in Jasenovac and elsewhere, reducing the number of victims to an absurd, along with a deadly silence over Ustasha heritage that so gruesomely lives on in Croatia for other 363 days of the year. Paying a simultaneous "respect" in Jasenovac and in Bleiburg every spring (ie., equating the victims and the murderers), is more than telling as an official policy in Croatia. The last summer, I've seen a report from a commemoration in Jadovno (the early Ustasha concentration camp and mass-murdering site), where the big municipal sign says "Dobrodosli u Jadovno" (Welcome To Jadovno). What else can be said on such a politics? Nowhere in Europe is the ugly and bloodthirsty Nazism more alive and well (save, perhaps, the Baltic states and Jobbik-voting Hungary, and, of course, the Kosovo Albanians, strolling merrily with SS Skanderbeg Division-flags and Hilary Clinton's portraits hand in hand).
As for Vedrana Rudan, perhaps you already know the fact that she happens to be the best friend among Serbia's self-haters (themselves a curious bunch, currently holding a strong, occupation-like grip on Serbia's media and political discourse: mostly Soros-funded NGOs and media of B92-conglomerate type, along with some political parties as well). I remember her having been tirelessly promoted in Serbia by Borka Pavicevic some years ago (those ridiculously vulgar and dilettante hey-look-I'm-swearin'-like-a-trucker-and-it's-sooooo-cool Rudan's books). Besides, it is more than telling that the aforementioned group of NGO/media/political self-haters, NATO-lovers, apologists of ALL the crimes done to Serbs in 1990s, consists mostly of former obscure extreme rightists from the darkest corners of Belgrade's political fringe (those disgustingly Ljotic-glorifying, Nazi-cinema-loving, hysterically racist and antisemitic types that came of age in 1980ies, mostly the Old Establishment's spoiled kids: Nikola Samardzic and Biljana Srbljanovic and Ceda Jovanovic come to mind first, as well as that gruesome Vojvodinian Horthyite Nenad Canak). The funny thing is how their "peaceful, democratic, freedom-loving" camouflage is getting virtually unchallenged by Serbian opposition; the Western sugar daddies don't surprise much, since they must be acquainted with their protegees' political past but why should they care, Germans especially, given their history of almost ritual Serbophobia which seems to be very much the same in 2010 as it used to be in 1941 and 1914).
B..
November 9th, 2010 at 8:18 am
Croaticus, feel free to challenge and counter my notions with some valid counter-arguments. Or keep posting this idiotic Stormfront-type denial by laughing at the victims of your country's fascist policies, as an imbecile. You'd cheer up some inbred Nazi deniers of Auschwitz and Nova Gradiska, no doubt, but here you'll still be treated as an Ustasha-apologist you are.
paleo
November 9th, 2010 at 9:00 am
I learned a lot from this post. Not surprised that far rightists are now the new far leftists. It's not uncommon for people to switch between the extremes, as at heart they are both totalitarian systems. As for the Croats and "Croaticus" and "Bozh" here, I am really not interested in what they have to say.
What interests me, instead, is how even so many years after the fall of Communism, so many Serbs are engaging in auto-censorship. I understand that the state is trying to cultivate good relations with Croatia for EU entry, and setting aside a lawsuit for genocide (which would be treated much like the Kosovo law suit, useless), I think it is high time that the Serbs draw together a state commission that 1.) Translates the currently available WWII literature into English, French, German, Russian, etc. and 2.) Carries out a systematic study of all the sites in which genocide was perpetrated in WWII by the NDH and how it was perpetrated.
The young generation of Serbs mostly has no idea about their own history. They don't know what happened in WWI, with the Thessaloniki front, the Toplica uprising and Bulgarian terror, the Golgotha through Albania, the Austro-Hungarian terror in Macva and Podrinje, the Austro-Hungarian detention camps of WWI (e.g. the Doboj camp).
The young generation of Serbs has little idea about WWII history. The literature on events is all disconnected. We have some books on Jasenovac, but unfortunately Jasenovac has swallowed everything else up. I have read the following books on Jasenovac: Jasenovac and the Holocaust in Yugoslavia (Barry Lituchy), Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945 (Edmond Paris), Witness to Jasenovac's Hell (Ivanovic), and am currently reading The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican (Dedijer). I have learned much about Jasenovac and the Catholic Church from this.
But so many of the other texts have not been translated into English, are not available on Amazon or other mainstream websites. For instance, Blood Flows the Drina (Krsmanovic), Magnum Crimen (Novak), Genocide in Yugoslavia (Avramov), and Jadovno (Zatezalo). I want to read these books in English or Serbian and I can't obtain them in the US in either language. The English doesn't exist and the Serbian is inaccessible.
Moreover, many people, even in Serbia today, and in no small part due to Croatian propaganda, somehow think that Sajmiste, Banjica, and Crveni Krst were Serb-run camps for Jews and Roma. In fact, they were German Nazi-run camps (Sajmiste on then territory of the NDH) in which the greatest victims numerically, by far, were Serbs. Do we even have a book on Sajmiste or Banjica? Do we have a book on Albanian atrocities in WWI and WWII and SS Skenderbeg? What about Bulgarian atrocities in southeastern Serbia in WWI and WWII? What about Hungarian atrocities in Backa in WWII?
Quite simply, while Jews and Armenians have done a good job to document everything, we Serbs allowed everything to be forgotten in order to somehow have a "brotherhood and unity." Now that we know that "brotherhood and unity" was a lie, that "Chetnik = Ustasha" was a lie, that Tito was furthering the interests of Croats, Muslims, Slovenes, and Albanians and working against Serb interests, that Tito was in a unit that perpetrated atrocities against Serbs in Macva in WWI, that Tito met up with Vatican and Ustasa leaders in Rome and elsewhere before the end of WWII to coordinate how to protect Croats from a seemingly inevitable Serb backlash at the end of the war, now that we know all this, it is time to rewrite history, to get to the truth of what really happened, who did what to whom, and to finally give our victims the truth and dignity they deserve.
And to do that, we need to translate and disseminate everything we have currently into the English and other mainstream languages, and before all the survivors are dead, to compile a comprehensive analysis of what happened in WWII, the atrocities of the Nazi occupation, the atrocities of Nazi collaborating foreign occupiers in occupied Serbia as well as Nedic's and Ljotic's forces, and most of all the genocide that took place in the Independent State of Croatia all the way from Zemun to Gospic and from Varazdin to Gacko.
Rad Vuckov
November 9th, 2010 at 11:30 am
I came from the region of the worst genocide of the Serbs in 1941-45 also in 1991-95. First Jasenovac, then Bljesak and Oluja.
West Slavonija – today totally clean of Serbs. Does anybody
remember it today? I urge my fellow Serbs to learn about the
rich history of this part of the Krajina or Miilitary Frontier. My ancestors were called 'Granicari'. Now the Croats have their
free Croatia without Serbs and uncultivated land. The rest is known.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 9th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
There needs to be some revenge for what Ustasha did in http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/Prebilovc…. Don't you think?
Croaticus
November 9th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
OK, thanks, I wanted some more of it, for fun (one thumbs up from me),
Croaticus
November 9th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
LOL. This is even better.
B..
November 9th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Please, don't flatter yourself, Nazi. I was responding to Paleo's (insightful and well-grounded) post, not to your sick Ustasa drivel
B..
November 9th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
Reminding you on who you are (a sick Ustasha apologist) really cracks you up, huh?
Croaticus
November 9th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
It's clearly visible here as to who provoked your hysterical outbursts and to whom you were responding. And it was not Paleo. haha
paleo
November 9th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
A word of advice: ignore bozh and Croaticus.
No, Vojkan, I disagree. 1991 in Croatia was not revenge for 1941-1945. It's not even the same dimension. It was a defense of the Serbian people from neo-Ustase. The fact that some of the fighters did atrocities against innocent Croats is a completely different issue, as is the fact that Croats did the same kinds of atrocities against innocent Serbs in 1991. The numbers and intent are so different: hundreds or thousands of victims in 1991 vs. hundreds of thousands in 1941 and a genocidal plan by the NDH government.
Theoretically, what we need is justice, human justice, but that is over, as the Ustase are dead.
But I am certain that God will avenge us. He saw all those murdered children, and He will avenge them. Many people lose their faith in God because of this sort of evil, but for me, it strengthens it. I cannot doubt that a God exists because I know that the nuns who poison children and the priests who smash open the heads of infants with hammers, and all those who gave them the power to do so (Vatican, Germany, the NDH government, etc.), must some day answer for their sins.
paleo
November 9th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
I knew you were a survivor based on previous posts. I have seen your posts on Serbianna and Pecat as well, and I remember an article about the vicious killing of over 6000 Serbs on the Drina in spring of 1942 by Muslim Ustase, and that you expressed that you had not known about that event. Did you know that in Bihac in summer of 1941 Croat and Muslim Ustase killed over 15,000 Serbs and hundreds of Jews and dumped them in Garavice and other locations?
This just proves my point that since even a survivor doesn't necessarily know about the overall picture, it is high time somebody held a conference on more than just Jasenovac, but the entire picture of the genocide: Jasenovac, the other concentration camps (Lepoglava, Loborgrad, Jadovno, Metajna, Kruscica, etc.), the rivers and sea, the karstic pits/jame, the people killed in their homes and churches, how many stolen Serb children given to Croat parents still don't know their true identity, etc. We have a general impression, but we still don't know roughly how many people in each place were killed, when, by which methods, etc. We need to figure this out before all the survivors have died.
bozh
November 9th, 2010 at 7:01 pm
for nonserbs on this particular site, i can tell u that i get more pluses than minuses on ICH.
On DV at least one commenter said i had been the best commenter.
On truthdig, really a fascist site, not one of my numerous comments had ever been deleted.
And i had not been demonized at all. perhaps once or twice i encoutered some ridicule or namecalling.
On this site, kosovars, slovenes, bosniaks, and croats appear absent.
I am very proud that the three or four serbs on this side demonize and that's all they actually.
as for administrator, i can only note that 'she wilfully allows demonization of anyone who exposes serb lies.
But once a site deletes my posts, i am outta here.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 10th, 2010 at 6:02 am
I never said 1991 was revenge. I agree it was self-defence. I saw it all coming in Yugoslavia. Except that I never trusted the Yugoslav army, because it was communist before anything else.
I just pointed at the first sentence of the post I replied to. If someone has the right to feel vengeful in the former Yugoslavia, then it's definitely not the Croats, given that even their Nazi patrons were horrified by their behaviour. In the end, if 1941-45 hadn't happened, Serbs would have had no reason to fear a repetition of history.
But you are right, dialogue with Croats is impossible. I first realised it in 1991, while discussing in Paris the war with a young woman who later became official translator in The Hague. While I said that Milosevic had a share of responsibility because of his ideological obtuseness, she maintained that Croats were innocent lambs, victims of Serbian aggression. Never mind the sudden ubiquity of Ustasha symbols and the entry in the Croatian government of prominent Ustasha emigrants.
Croaticus
November 10th, 2010 at 7:38 am
No more hysteria? Damn it, it was really amusing.
Srbin
November 10th, 2010 at 9:23 am
Ustashas are evil.
Rad Vuckov
November 10th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
I appreciate your comments in this site and elsewhere.
Thank you. It would be nice to know where you are -
maybe in same country? My mission is to tell the truth as
one of few survivors. The Croats are working in full force in History Revision. Jasenovac? What? This is only Serbian
obsession with so called "victimhood". My family and friends
went thru every camp in era of 1941-45, even children camp
in Jastrebarsko. So, we also have a mission to "NOT FORGET"
Rad Vuckov
November 10th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
I also found the refuge in Serbia as a child hidden under the coat
of the Croatian family friend in the train full of Ustashes.
We reached Zemun and waited for connection to cross to the
Serbia (Nedic's Serbia , yes). I almost did not made it. The border
bridge was guarded with ustashes and German soldiers. Ustasha
would not let me go, but my 'savior' spoke german and this saved my life. My "savior" was also one of the first Serbs taken to the Caprag
camp and from there on train to Serbia. He died just 2 years ago.
Just for the sake of this story: part of the people who took care of
me was one family of refugees, fleeing the Hungarians in 1941. I am
the one who survived to remind others what happened. If this looks
as a very personal story, maybe. This is part of the Serbian people
story. Until next good article from N.M.
paleo
November 10th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
Rad Vuckov: I am in the US, born and grew up here. I would look forward to corresponding with you. If you wish, feel free to contact me at milpalon @ yahoo . com
Rad Vuckov
November 11th, 2010 at 6:45 am
Thank you. I will contact you. I am also in US.
R,V.
B..
November 11th, 2010 at 10:14 am
Paleo, my apologies for a belated answer (this direct-reply system doesn't seem very handy: I completely missed your response until now).
I wholeheartedly agree with your notion that a serious presentation of historical documents in regard to Nazi/Ustasha genocide against Serbs in mainstream languages is a must. And it is not only the Anglosphere that remains almost ignorant on the scale and brutality of the WW2 genocide in the Balkans, but, tellingly, Russia as well (contrary to the tiresome stereotype that "Russians and Serbs are one and the same"). A good friend from Moscow (a historian of a younger generation, well-acquainted with the Balkan history, being his own field of expertise), explained a couple years back, that Russians, in general, happen to have some fragmented knowledge on the WW2 Balkans, still based on the old Titoist narrative about "ALL Yugoslav peoples bravely fighting the fascists". "Independent state of Croatia", Ustasha genocide against Serbs, Jews and Roma, and the fact that the Serbs (and Serbs alone in the South Slavic part of Balkan peninsula) have spent the war fighting not only Germans and Italians but half a DOZEN of Hitler's puppets as well, remains largely obscure.
Current climate of vulgar "rehabilitation" (NATOfication, more precisely) of Gen. Mihailovich, led by cartoonishly compliant Serbian bunch of quisling appeasers of Clinton/Bush policies in the Balkans, doesn't help the cause of clearing the General's good name either. They could not care less about Mihailovich's patriotism and anti-fascist uprising (the FIRST one in occupied Europe), but use it in ways almost surreal, twisting the facts to a grotesque level: "see, Draza loved Americans instead of heathen Ruskie commies" (as if Roosevelt – a sincere and staunch Serbian friend – has got anything to do with the Clintons, Holbrookes and Albrights of this world). You would be surprised to see the level of carefully cultivated ignorance, insane prejudice in Cold War HUAC-McCarthyite-fashion and sheer mendacity in their interpretation of Mihailovich (whom they want to 'rehabilitate' as a NATO sargent, apparently). Needless to say, they ignore the fact that Draza (quite understandably, as a Serb officer) had had a deep love for Russia, having been unprejudiced to Soviet Union as well.
As a result of this frightening, disgraceful (ab)use of Draza's memory by Serbian NATOphyles, Russians still cling onto the Titoist version of history, where Draza is interpreted as "a traitor". Luckily, there are several Balkanologists and historians in Russia who do have a direct knowledge on Serbian affairs (by being able to speak Serbian and read original documents and historical materials), and, I guess, they know the whole game.
B..
November 11th, 2010 at 10:18 am
@ paleo
(cont'd)
Anyhow, the Serbian level of activism in bringing the truth to light and defending the memory of the WW2 victims against the brutal campaigns of Nazi/Ustasha denial, remains shamefully weak, both in Serbia and abroad. There were (and still are) well-known historians in America and elsewhere which (when acquainted with the facts) readily reconsider the Serb-bashing dogmas established by Clintonite hysteria in 1990s. The late Arthur Schlessinger, I remember, was more than reluctant to jump onto the wagon of kill-the-Serbs insanity in American media and academe in the mid-1990s. Michael Parenti wrote the great book on destruction of Yugoslavia (published by L. Ferlinghetti's legendary City Lights), understanding and balanced approach to Balkan affairs was recognized as 'the lowest common denominator' between dissenting US intellectuals as diverse as, say, Paleo-Conservatives and Old Leftists (above, I included a link that you might find interesting, written on Jasenovac by a veteran Marxist historian Norman Markowitz; I discovered it only recently, having been acquainted only with Prof. Markowitz's excellent works on modern American history).
This very website (run by anti-interventionist Libertarians) was founded in opposition to Clinton's bombing of Serbs in Bosnia…
The list can go on and on, there ARE many people in the US which contributed a GREAT deal to the truth and memory of victims of Ustasha crimes (and yet, almost unnoticed in meager Serbian NGOs-and-US and German-embassies-run academia). Julia Gorin is well-known for her great work, and Jared Israel alone had done more for the victims (by discovering the old pre-WW2 NYT reports about Ustasha well-established connections with high places in Vatican, Berlin and Rome, for example), than THE WHOLE younger (under 50) generation of historians in Serbia. Because, unlike their worthy predecessors (as the great Milorad Ekmecic, for instance) these 'new' history professors count to no more than a regretful bunch of either outright falsifiers and deniers of their people's tragedy, or the mediocre non-entities, caving in to the intellectual Gestapo of today's Serbia, the NGO-funded Jasenovac-denying stormtroopers (most notoriously, Sonja Biserko who asserted that Jasenovac is 'a myth', and Branka Prpa who, in a capacity of a "regime's historian", claimed the Ustasha-run Sajmiste "a Serbian camp"). It is not that a great many people BELIEVE in such criminal insanity (quite contrary), it is the Serbian academia that is cowardly silent.
Again, yes, you are completely right: the struggle for a memory to be kept, must be started from the scratch.
paleo
November 11th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
I did not know that Russians were so oblivious to this. I think that Russians suffered such horrible things themselves that they were a little disaffected to evens that happened elsewhere, and on a smaller scale. But I think that acquainting Russians, Greeks, and other Orthodox peoples of what happened would help extinguish that poisonous spirit of ecumenism with the Vatican that is sweeping the Orthodox hierarchies and even that of Serbia (Irinej was hand-selected by the Belgrade puppets, let us not kid ourselves). Greeks distrust the Vatican because of the 4th Crusade but they don't seem to know that just 70 years ago their kindred Orthodox Serb neighbors just to the north were victims of something far more devastating than even the 4th Crusade.
Equally important, the more the Christian West (i.e. devout Protestants) know about these things, the less they will embrace ecumenism with the Vatican, something that is also occurring here in the US.
I'd also like to mention that there will be a Jasenovac conference in April 2011 in Banja Luka. Perhaps if someone brings forward the need for a more generic NDH conference (not just Jasenovac) to be held and televised IN BELGRADE, and the founding of a genocide museum at the Sajmiste site to commemorate it all, that would be good. But somehow I think the Belgrade quisling would do everything to undermine any conference and any museum. That's why it's taking place in Banja Luka and not Belgrade.
It strikes me that one of our worst sins of omission was allowing the abuse of language. Largely it was outside of our control, but what is inside our control needs to be properly regulated. The conflation of 1990s ethnic cleansing with WWII is completely wrong. The wars of the 1990s were characterized primarily by mass population movements (on all sides), accompanied with atrocities against dozens OR hundreds OR thousands of civilians and POWs which stimulated such population movements. There was destruction of monuments of culture, torching of houses, etc. All of these things happened in WWII as well. But there is a huge distinction between expulsion and extermination/genocide. We need to keep that distinction in mind and always refute any attempts to liken 1941-1945 to 1991-1995, on any side. Yes, the Serbs, Muslims, Croats, and Albanians all experienced and did terrible things in 1991-1995 and 1999-present. But they differ radically in scope, magnitude, intent, organization, and method from what the NDH was doing and we need to always state that. Croats and Muslims are trying to throw things like Vukovar or Srebrenica (very one-sidedly, I might add) in our faces to muddy the waters and put us on the defensive. We must firmly set aside their provocations, state the facts plainly, and move on to the real issues that they've been refusing to deal with since 1941.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 11th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
I just saw that I somehow messed up my second reply to your post, so here it is again. On a second thought, Croats very much care on how people perceive them, they really care to pass for mitteleuropa cultivated urban folks. And no Croat would spell his pseudo like that. So I think that bozh is actually Albanian. Saying he was Croat was just an attempt to see if he'd feel flattered. -:)
conumishu
November 11th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
I'm not a Serb but I sympathize with them, they showed a lot of courage facing impossible odds. Politics are politics, things change, friends can become foes. Still, observing your behaviour in the comments for the last few articles of Mr. Malic it certainly strengthened the feeling the Serbs are unjustly vilified. They must be doing something right if the local winners hate them so much. History teaches us it must have something to do with the truth behind their cause or the lack of it behind their enemies' one.
paleo
November 12th, 2010 at 12:43 am
Btw, both Biserko and Prpa are Croats.
3oka
November 12th, 2010 at 11:22 am
Thanks paleo for this analysis, it is truly brilliant… it is part of my personal library now.
I know all this first hand because my family (my dad’s side) is from Krajina.
B..
November 12th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Exactly. While all sides in 1990s are responsible for hideous crimes, there is an inconvenient (essential) element that the West (and Serbian quislings alike) tend to ignore:
- Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia had had MORE than enough reasons to cling onto Yugoslavia, and be afraid if left alone in Croatia or Bosnia. Worse yet, Tudjman's HDZ (followed by Izetbegovic's SDA) made no secret about its true intentions towards Serbs, after they're stripped of their constitutional rights, and end up physically disconnected from Serbia, in the midst of a hostile, revisionist, histerically chauvinist, Nazi-flag-waving, Ustasha-glorifying atmosphere.
Today's quisling version of recent history, relentlessly uttered by Belgrade Vichyites, routinely omits the fact that, back in the 1991, Jasenovac survivors were still in their 50s and 60s, old enough to remember and young enough to warn their children that the same evil was approaching again. The traumatic memories of destroyed families and virtually ERADICATED Serb-populated regions west of Drina,Danube and Sava during the Nazi and Ustasha genocidal,mass-murdering orgy of the 1940s, were painfully vivid among Bosnian and Croatian Serbs.
In the very same pattern, the Serb victims of the 1990s are being routinely ignored (or, worse, wickedly denied or openly mocked). When regime and NGO-foreign-funds-fueled media in Belgrade say anything about Vukovar, Sarajevo or Srebrenica, it is instantly being clear that they're following the Tudjman's and Izetbegovic's official wartime propaganda. Somehow, the towns aforementioned are being perceived as the places where the SERBS (and SERBS ONLY) had committed hideous crimes against unarmed legions of hippies which somehow backtracked from the Woodstock. Not a SINGLE notion about murdered Serbs in Vukovar (where the war started by Croatian blackshirts' raids on Serbian homes) or Sarajevo (where several THOUSAND Serb civilians have PERISHED in town's private camps and prisons, by the very noses of wannabe-hip dimwit Americans and Euros who swallowed THE WHOLE Izetbegovic's propaganda of 'multi-ethnic city'). The hideous record of Naser Oric and his butchering gang in 'de-militarized enclave of' Srebrenica, is more than well-documented from the very onset of war in 1992 until the July 1995.
I am not saying any of this in order to cover or justify the Serbian share of responsibility for the 1990s onslaught and monstrosities of it, but I am 'smelling the mendacity' as well, every time ANYONE tries to equate Srebrenica to Jasenovac. As ugly and unacceptable as it was, the Srebrenica case has had NOTHING to do with WW2 (save for the documented fact that Oric's soldiers were known for their horrendous sense of 'great pride' for their SS Waffen-serving, Serb-killing fathers and grandfathers in WW2).
It gets even more ugly when this rape of history ("Srebrenica equals Jasenovac and Auschwitz") is done by Nazi-flag waving 'democrats' in today's Sarajevo and Zagreb and in (surprise, surprise) German media.
Stojko
November 14th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Kosovo je Srbija
Stojko
November 14th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
I miss Robert Lindh – maybe he's stuck with the Gay pride parade?
Stojko
November 14th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Much of the Souther Balkan region was first populated by Pan Slavic tribes and intermixed with Celtic tribes of Scordics, lived in harmony some 6,000 and 7,000 years BCE. They worked the land, and they were ranchers – not hunter-gatherers like the Germanic tribes after them. There was a relatively high level of civilization in that region at that time. The true barbarian tribes where the Germanic tribes (Frankish) Goths, Huns, Mongols, Bulgarians and Seljuk Turks from Anatolia. Slavic tribes on the land of today's Serbia never had an ongoing enemy, EVER. (except today)
Rad Vuckov
November 14th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
conumishu: I appreciate very much your assessment of the Serbian
situation in general terms. Outside of the mainstream media you may
find out the real truth. I like this description of the Serbs: 'hard to
crack and difficult to bend' – that's how they survived the centuries of
misfortune to live there at the crossroads of civilizations. Not very comfortable place to be in any case for the meek ones.
Suvorov
November 14th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
He might be closer than you think, just calling himself something different like "Croaticus".