I wanted to like Oliver Stone’s new documentary, The Untold History of the United States, really I did. After all, here is the maker of films positing a conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy and exposing the criminal history of the Vietnam war promising to unveil the suppressed truth about America’s role in the world. With the Usual Suspects attacking Stone before the first part of this Showtime series was ever released, I was eagerly looking forward to a scathing critique of the American empire’s long bloody rampage through the history of modern times.
I should have known better.
Stone, is turns out, has been engaged in some false advertising. For what he has produced, at least so far, might be better entitled “A Twice-Told Tale” — because the narrative he presents was told first by official Soviet “historians” and their fellow-travelers in this country, albeit without the hi-tech enhancements and prominent platform available to Stone. And if you think this is just cheap red-baiting, then go on over to Digby’s site and watch chapter one.
Our story starts out with the development of the atomic bomb, and what Stone regards as the unlikely engagement of Robert Oppenheimer, a brilliant scientist and fellow-traveling leftist, with the high mucka-mucks of the Pentagon. The US government, it seems, paid little attention to the military potential of nuclear research until Albert Einstein wrote a letter to FDR lobbying for a US government crash program to weaponize the atom.
Curiously, the decision to actually drop the bomb is not mentioned — perhaps he’s leaving that for the second part — and the narrative soon veers off into the history of the 1930s and the run-up to World War II. It is here that Stone’s embarrassing pro-Soviet viewpoint comes across like a very bad smell.
What Stone fails to point out is that Oppenheimer, who belonged — as Stone notes — to “every Communist front group on the West Coast,” had ideological reasons for letting the atomic genie out of its bottle. American Communists opposed US entry into World War II right up until Hitler invaded the Soviet Union — and then turned on a dime, becoming the most militantly vociferous advocates of entering the war. They led the effort to squelch labor strikes in wartime, and called for jailing the hated “isolationists,” anti-war activists who were smeared by the Communists and the fellow-traveling media as Nazi “fifth columnists.”
Stone cites Oppenheimer’s evocation of the devilish Hindu goddess Kali, deity of destruction and war, as the great scientist contemplates the awesome power he’s unleashed on the world: it never occurs to him that Oppenheimer doubtless considered Kali to be, in this instance, on the side of the angels, i.e. the Kremlin, which was at that moment fighting for its life against the German onslaught.
According to Stone, the problem with US entry into World War II is that it didn’t happen soon enough. We should have gone to war with Germany and Italy in defense of the Spanish “Republic,” when the Communists toppled the Spanish monarchy and established a nascent Soviet satellite on the Iberian peninsula. The Spanish commies, we are told, had incurred the wrath of Corporate America by their “progressive policies” and “tight regulation of business” — a vapid euphemism for the forced collectivization of all business, the wholesale murder of Catholic priests and nuns, and a reign of Red Terror that rivaled that being carried out in Stone’s beloved Soviet Union.
The myth of Munich and Western “appeasement” of Hitler is uncritically reiterated: Stone bewails the fact that the Western powers, particularly France, did nothing when Hitler’s army marched into the Rhineland. It never occurs to him to ask: why was the Rhineland, overwhelmingly German, subjected to a de facto occupation in the first place? The Treaty of Versailles, which laid the groundwork for German revanchism, does not get even a single mention. Stone, the supposed iconoclast, isn’t about to take on the myth of German war guilt. In its revision of the conventional historical wisdom, the left-wing of the War Party draws the line when it comes to the two world wars.
The two heroes of this chapter in Stone’s epic are, in hagiographic order, Josef Stalin and FDR: the latter earns high praise not only for the New Deal but also because he waged a clandestine war well before Pearl Harbor, and the former is hailed as the indomitable leader of a heroic people’s war against fascism, who may have had some flaws — such as a bloodthirsty ruthlessness — although, to be sure, they were flaws that ultimately enabled him to lead his nation to victory.
As Stone would have it, the Soviet Union defeated the Nazis and won World War II for the Allies almost single-handedly: he blandly describes the “relocation” of tens of millions of Soviet citizens as a necessary measure to preserve Russian industry, and his paean to the Kremlin’s forced industrialization program, which enslaved the entire population of the USSR still under the Red Army’s boot, sounds like something out of the Daily Worker, circa 1935. He does mention the Lend-Lease program, which, he notes with some rancor, was passed by a “reluctant” Congress: it was this — America’s industrial might, untouched by the war — and not the Stakhanovite fantasies of Soviet propagandists, that enabled the Russians to hold out against the German onslaught.
While Stone shows footage of Americans saying they didn’t want to get dragged into another European war, this viewpoint is implicitly attributed to nothing more substantial than a stubborn “isolationism” — and, rather more explicitly, vicious hostility to the Soviet Union. Stone cites, with clear disapproval, none other than Harry Truman wishing aloud that the Nazis and Soviets would kill each other off. I didn’t know Truman ever said that, but such sentiment was even more clearly expressed by such conservative opponents of FDR as Col. Robert R. McCormick, publisher of the Chicago Tribune, and other conservative anti-interventionists. They are left out of this phony Untold History, along with the story of the biggest and most militant antiwar movement in American history, the America First Committee, which opposed FDR’s drive to war right up until Pearl Harbor. This history remains largely untold and unknown (although I’ve made a modest effort to tell it) — and, if the historical reality is ever uncovered and popularized, it likely won’t be due to the efforts of Stone and similar pro-Soviet “revisionists.”
Stone chose to begin his narrative with the run-up to World War II, and this allows him to side-step the real genesis of that horrific conflict: World War I, the Versailles Treaty, and the ruinous Allied and American role in ensuring the rise of a revanchist Germany. For the Great Anti-Fascist Struggle of Stone’s sectarian imagination was really the second act of Woodrow Wilson’s war to “make the world safe for democracy.” An examination of that seminal tragedy would have required a good look at Wilson, one of the plaster saints of American “progressivism,” and that would have meant a great deal more evasion of unpleasant historical facts than even Stone is capable of.
Yet he doesn’t do a bad job of evasion in the present work: in Oliver Stone’s vision of America during World War II, tens of thousands of Japanese-Americans and others were never rounded up and thrown into concentration camps. Of this historic crime, there is nary a word. However, he does mention, surprisingly, that the Americans knew a Japanese attack was coming, although, according to him, they expected it in the Philippines rather than Hawaii. I guess the work of Robert Stinnett, and others, who have shown the Americans had deciphered the Japanese secret code and successfully intercepted their war plans, isn’t available at the Hollywood public library.
Stone’s Untold History is emblematic of the problem with much of the ostensibly anti-interventionist left in America and around the world: the second world war is their big blind spot. Because they are burdened with upholding the mythology of the “good war,” they break ranks and run whenever the War Party holds up another reincarnation of Hitler and demands his righteous destruction. The neocons, for whom it is always 1939, know how to appeal to the left: just conjure the ghost of Munich, and with it the screaming lunacy of the failed painter from Vienna, and you will have the liberals, as well as the reflexively militarist conservatives, in the palm of your hand.
This is why limousine liberals of Stone’s sort have deserted the antiwar movement in droves: just as Roosevelt’s war was the “good war,” so Obama’s wars are considered equally righteous. Obama was elected, with their enthusiastic support, on a promise to fight the Afghan war — the “good war” — and be done with Bush’s half-measures. The Libyan intervention was treated by the liberal media as yet another “good war,” the 21st century equivalent of the Spanish Civil War recalled by Stone with such partisan passion. And the same crowd is even now agitating for direct US military support to the Syrian “revolutionaries,” whose terrorist allies and leaders are apparently today’s version of the heroic Spanish Republicans. Gadhafi and Assad are the new Hitlers, albeit of the tinpot variety, whose overthrow is to be followed by yet another “good” war against the Iranian Hitler.
The desertion of the “progressives” from the ranks of the peace movement has been widely noted, and is invariably attributed to partisan loyalty: Bush’s wars were bad, according to this analysis, while Obama’s are good, because the former is a Republican while the latter is the darling of the left-wing of the Democratic party. There is less truth in this than you might imagine: the theory describes a real phenomenon, but doesn’t quite tell the whole story.
The vision of our “progressives” is inherently internationalist, and interventionist, simply because it ascribes superhuman powers to the instrument of government, and specifically the American government — which they just happen to control at the moment. The progressive values of Democracy, racial Diversity, and the secular Divinity of the State are proclaimed as universal: that means their strictures must be imposed on everyone in the world — at gunpoint, if necessary.
All in all, the first chapter of Stone’s Untold History is an embarrassment, one he will have a hard time living down no matter what he has to say in the chapters to follow. His right-wing critics will no doubt accuse him of giving a Stalinist account of history, but I would disagree: his sympathies are clearly Trotskyist. Indeed, Trotsky gets a prominent cameo in this production, including an account of his assassination at Stalin’s order: the dead giveaway is when Stone solemnly notes that Stalin’s purge of the Red Army’s top commanders imperiled the survival of the Soviet Union during World War II. A real Stalinist would have completely glossed over the gulag: as it is, Stone gives it a single mention in passing.
The roots of the American Empire and its rise to global hegemony run deeper than a dilettante like Stone is capable of imagining. The story he relates, far from being “untold,” is the creation myth of the Greatest Generation, the central storyline of the interventionist narrative. Oliver Stone’s big hero, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, was the biggest warmonger in American history: in cahoots with Churchill and Stalin’s agents inside his administration, he plotted behind the scenes to drag us into war, all the while pledging in public his utter devotion to the cause of peace. He lied us into war, as Clare Boothe Luce famously put it, but that is one official lie the Oliver Stones of this world are loath to debunk.
NOTES IN THE MARGIN
I note, above, the desertion of the Hollywood liberals and the “progressive” Obama cultists from the ranks of the antiwar movement. It’s precisely the sort of sunshine anti-warrior who’s shelling out good money to tune in to Showtime and buy the Untold History book and DVD — and believes every word — who is no longer contributing to Antiwar.com.
And that, in short, is why we’re struggling with this winter fundraiser, in what has to be the longest winter in Antiwar.com’s history.
No, no, I’m not blaming this on Stone personally: his fake “revisionism” is just a symptom, not the cause, of a more general intellectual malaise on what passes for the “left” today. Oh, for the days of Eugene Victor Debs, who ran for President from jail — where he was put by the “progressive” Woodrow Wilson for opposing US entry into World War I.
Well, you can’t turn back the clock! At least, that’s what the “progressives” tell us. They’re on the right side of history, and that’s what “progress” represents — i.e. whatever is happening at the moment. But what’s happening at this particular moment is anything but the old-fashioned liberal or “left” vision of what America ought to be or was meant to be. It was never meant to be an empire, no matter how ostensibly benign, and it was never meant — at least by the Founders, who Stone invokes in the preface to his Untold History — to be saddled with a central government as omnipresent at home as it is abroad.
We can and must turn back the clock, if only to revive the old-fashioned and entirely admirable history of left-liberal anti-imperialism. What’s happened to “progressives” isn’t progress: it’s a horrific retrogression to an earlier stage of American progressivism, which the Vietnam era should’ve expunged.
We’re working, here at Antiwar.com, and through our parent organization, the Randolph Bourne Institute, to renew the spirit of an older liberalism — you might call it paleo-liberalism, if you’re into ideological taxonomy. This is the liberalism of Randolph Bourne, for one, who bravely stood up to the “progressive” enthusiasm for Wilson’s war to make the world safe for the British empire and its bankers. It’s the liberalism of Eugene McCarthy, who stood up to the “liberal” wing of the Democratic party (remember Hubert Humphrey?) and rallied American youth in a crusade to end the Vietnam war.
This is the exact opposite of the Obama cultists and identity politicians who hail American military power as a force for “good” — now that the power is in their hands. In fighting this revolting trend in American politics, we are up against a mighty media machine consciously pushing the Obama cult and getting us ready for another glorious war that will put their hero on the same level as a Roosevelt, or a Wilson.
And who is there to oppose it?
We’ve long fought a very lonely fight against the depredations and relentless expansion of the American empire, and we don’t have any illusions about the difficulty of our task. We know who our enemies are, and what we have to do to defeat them in the war for public opinion. But, I must ask, who are our friends?
That’s the question being posed pointblank by our winter fundraising campaign. And the answer is: we’ll see.
Amid the mass desertion of our fair weather friends among the “progressives” we are seeing the first signs of an old-fashioned liberal rejection of interventionism per se. The Ron Paul campaign pointed the way to a new fusionism, a left-right alliance against war and in defense of the Bill of Rights. The popularity of such pundits as Glenn Greenwald is a good sign, as is the stubborn insistence of our longtime supporters on the left that Antiwar.com is indeed a worthy cause.
In short, there’s hope — but not unless we fight to preserve the institutions that make our movement possible. And that means supporting those institutions financially, as they take on the very well-funded think tanks, “emergency committees,” and government agencies that constitute the War Party’s command center. Those folks have billions at their disposal, much of it your tax dollars — we, on the other hand, have only you. You and your conscience, that is.
Listen to that little voice in the back of your head that’s telling you to shell out a few bucks for the cause of peace: it’s the voice of your moral sense, the one that is telling you there’s hope, yet, for a better world. Please, don’t delay — make your tax-deductible donation today.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Up Against the FBI – May 23rd, 2013
- Antiwar.com vs. the FBI – May 21st, 2013
- Two Cheers for ‘Isolationism’ – May 19th, 2013
- Our Civil Liberties, RIP – May 16th, 2013
- Raping the World – May 14th, 2013





Tom Mauel
November 27th, 2012 at 11:52 pm
Russia bore the brunt of the fighting in World War II. Ten million Russian soldiers died. And something like fifteen million civilians. The United States, in contrast to Russian suffering, merely wiped up the already broken German army in the West.
Oswaldwasalefty
November 28th, 2012 at 12:02 am
Well, World War II is hardly the point in time to start telling the story of the American Empire. The absolute latest point in U.S. history one could argue we became an empire would be the U.S. War of Aggression Against the Philippines 1899-1902 following the Spanish-American War.
I certainly wouldn't look forward to hearing more JFK revisionism from Stone. If JFK had only lived, blah, blah, blah. It was only in death that the reactionary Cold War Hawk, and escalator of U.S. involvement in South Vietnam into an invasion, became Saint JFK the Peacemaker. According to Stone, LBJ was the head of a right wing reaction to JFK. Never mind that LBJ's Great Society was well to the left of JFK and made him the runner up to FDR for the most progressive president domestically in the 20th century. What a gosh awful movie "JFK" is.
Articles for Mid-Week » Scott Lazarowitz's Blog
November 28th, 2012 at 5:53 am
[...] Justin Raimondo: Oliver Stone’s Untold History: A Twice-Told Tale [...]
musings
November 28th, 2012 at 6:12 am
Justin – At or about paragraph 10 – Don't you mean to say "latter" and "former" (FDR being latter, Stalin being former) instead of "latter" for each?
richard vajs
November 28th, 2012 at 6:29 am
I believe that the terms "liberal" and "progressive" (as well as "conservative and "reactionary")need to be better defined. First off, a lot of so-called liberals and progressives – if they are on-board with this War on Terror and the "promotion of democracy" in Arab countries are simply Zionists, riding the convenient ass of militarism in America.
Henry Wallace and George McGovern were progressives. Bernie Sanders is a progressive. Maybe Elizabeth Warren will be a progressive. Harry Reid is a liberal. Nancy Pelosi is a liberal. Obama and Hillary are neither liberal or progressive – both of them are careerists, resumee-builders, clever guns-for-hire – without scruples.The difference between a liberal and a progressive is the matter of populism – liberals lacking it; progressives embracing it. Liberals may want to try a little economic redistribution on the edges; progressives want to thoroughly stir the economic pot so that what has been on the bottom gets to come up and vice versa. Progressives are passionate about justice; liberals temper that passion with a certain amount of self-interest; conservatives are totally about self-interest; reactionaries actually hate justice.
dahoit
November 28th, 2012 at 6:34 am
The Hollywood liberals are silent because they are all Zionists,and this war of terror is all about the security of Israel,our bane and the worlds.
Notyourownfacts
November 28th, 2012 at 6:45 am
Hey Justin,
You wrote:
"…when the Communists toppled the Spanish monarchy and established a nascent Soviet satellite on the Iberian peninsula."
Wikipedia says:
"The Spanish Civil War… was fought …between the Republicans, who were loyal to the established Spanish republic, and the Nationalists, a rebel group led by General Francisco Franco. "
Either you are being spectacularly mendacious or you are an ignorant poltroon?
RickR30
November 28th, 2012 at 8:01 am
It's always fascinating to read discussions about these political labels, because no one agrees, and no one wants to be labeled something by someone else. By your definitions, the Clintons and Obamas turn out to be conservatives? I think not. Self-interest better applies to Republicans and these career opportunists. And everyone in power hates justice since it means constraining their power. But they love justice as it allows them to brutalize everyone else.
RickR30
November 28th, 2012 at 8:18 am
Good to know that there aren't just backward communists for whom the 80s never happened in third world country universities (like Berkeley). If there is one essential trait of the left it's hypocrisy. Humanitarian intervention is great because, well, it's "humanitarian," it helps humans, and at the same time the heroes of the left are always the greatest murderers in history. Humanitarian intervention is great because, well, it's going to bring women's rights and uhmm, stuff like that. If the means for that entail murdering, torturing, dismembering thousands (of women and children) so be it, even if the desired goal may never be attained. As long as some lofty unrealizable ideal is invoked, it's all good. Are these people really this childish and stupid? Or are they just evil? As the saying goes "He who is not a communist at age 17 has no heart; he who is still a communist at age 40 has no brain"
Generalissimo X
November 28th, 2012 at 8:44 am
yeh a real sophisticated documentary..hitler bad! stone's documentary is a joke just like he himself has become. another pathetic aging hippie who is nothing but a corporate turn coat. as for russians winning the war. sure they did. they were the worst military force in the history of the world sustaining casualties at a rate never seen. in terms of sheer casualties, the russians lost more than the germans in virtually ever major battle. this was because they were awful tacticians and possessed poor equipment and un-trained soliders. had they not had 4 times the soldiers they wouldn't have withstood anything. go tell my grandfathers who fought at normandy, anzio, kasarene pass they didn't win the war and see how that would work for you. stone also states things like the russian tanks were superior to german tanks? really? someone want to get this guy a history book?
as for his glorification of the a bomb…well i hope oppenheimer and his cronies are enjoying hell. it's a fact that many thought that exploding the bomb might actually destroy the upper atmosphere and wipe out life on earth..they blew it up anyway. that tells you what kind of "men" they were.
Luther
November 28th, 2012 at 8:50 am
Yeah, when saw I his defence of the fascist invasion of Spain I was expecting some real strong facts beneath it. Links to a vague Guardian article, a Catholic website and an economics article were not enough.
I thought the point of anti-imperialism was to never do apologies or give excuses for the murderous invaders – especially fascists.
Otherwise I agree with article. I've always been 50/50 on Stone but when he did his 'Hooray for the Heroes of 911' movie I crossed him off the list.
Strider55
November 28th, 2012 at 10:12 am
Heck, if Hitler had launched Operation Barbarossa just one month earlier the USSR would have been smashed to rubble. The Russians, as they had often done in their past, traded territory for time and waited for their historic ally — товарищ зимой (Comrade Winter) — to arrive. The Germans had no cold-weather clothing and their equipment was not designed to deal with the harsh conditions.
ragheadthefiendlyterrorist
November 28th, 2012 at 10:39 am
Where to begin?
I am an Indian, and though I'm an atheist, Kali is hardly a "devilish" goddess of destruction and war. As for the lend lease programme, the ancient Airacobras it sent over were inferior even to the obsolete MiG 3s and LAGGs with which the USSR's air force was fighting, let alone the more capable Yak-3 and -9. The Sherman tank was obsolescent, and as Alan Clark observes in Barbarossa, the only real contribution of the US to the Soviet effort was the White half track which acted as an armoured personnel carrier.
It's ridiculous for anyone to claim that it wasn't the USSR which virtually single-handedly destroyed the Nazis. Without the bulk of his army and air force permanently engaged on the Eastern front, right up to the last days of the war, Hitler couldn't possibly have lost. The war would have remained a draw, and any Allied invasion of France difficult if not impossible, let alone fighting on to Berlin.
ragheadthefiendlyterrorist
November 28th, 2012 at 10:42 am
If Hitler had launched his offensive a month earlier, at the most he might have taken Moscow. Long before Comrade Winter struck, Soviet war production had been shifted east of the Urals, and Stalin was willing to fight an indefinite war of attrition if need be, Also, it's a canard to pretend that the Russians won only due to the winter – a canard and an insult to the Soviet soldiers who fought off the Nazis at the Battle of Moscow.
ragheadthefiendlyterrorist
November 28th, 2012 at 10:44 am
He is being spectacularly mendacious. Where Raimondo's libertarianism comes up against facts he chooses the former. Just ignore it and read his normal columns instead of this trash.
mulegino
November 28th, 2012 at 11:05 am
Virtually every point that we've been indoctrinated with regarding the Second World War has been false. Far from being the simple result of naked "Nazi" aggression, the war was the result of a number of circumstances, and virtually all of them could have been averted if the US had avoided its catastrophic intervention in the First World War. The gross injustices of the Versailles Treaty made a subsequent conflict a virtual certaintly, with Danzig as a very likely central focus of that conflict.
The foolish British and French guarantees to Poland (at FDR's insistence) stiffened Polish intransigence and bellicosity. France and Britain, by declaring war on Germany, were responsible for turning what should have been a mere border readjustment dispute into a major European war.
And let us not forget that Operation Barbarossa, far from being a reckless act of pure aggression, was a desperate (and partially successful, from a pan-European perspective) preemptive strike against gargantuan Soviet forces massing along the borders of the Reich, occupied western Poland, and Rumania, staging for an invasion of the entire European continent. Had the Germans not struck first and the Soviets captured the Romanian oil fields, Europe would most surely have been overrun within months. The old canard of the Leftist dupes like Stone- the "heroic Soviet liberation" is just that, a total lie.
Justni Raimondo
November 28th, 2012 at 11:25 am
yes, thanks for pointing out the error, which has been corrected. Another reader also pointed out that I wrote that the Communists became prowar when the Hitler-Stalin Pact was announced: what I meant to say was when the Hitler-Stalin Pact was annulled by the former's invasion of the Soviet Union! D'oh!!!
Justni Raimondo
November 28th, 2012 at 11:32 am
I was not defending the fascist cause in Spain, merely not siding with the "Republicans" (i.e. Communists), as Stone does. Regardless of which side one takes in the Spanish Civil War, the point is that Stone argues we should have fought what would have been in effect a proxy war against Germany and Italy well before Pearl Harbor. I also don't see how Franco "invaded" his own country, any more than the Republicans did: both were receiving outside aid, but "invade" is hardly an appropriate term in this case.
Bruce Richardson
November 28th, 2012 at 11:32 am
Justin's mention of the "clandestine" pre-war activity unearthed many memories and stories concerning our Great Uncle, Admiral James O. Richardson, Commander-in-Chief of the Pacif Fleet at the time of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. As the family story line goes, Admiral Richardson, aware of the Naval Intelligence plot to provoke the Japanese attack, pleaded with FDR to remove the Fleet from certain destruction. As a result, FDR fired the Admiral for complaing to the press that the Fleet was in imminent and certain danger after many frustrating meetings with FDR who did not want the Fleet relocated and overruled the Admiral. The details of this time frame can be reviewed in Wm. Stinnet's excellent book; "Day of Deceit." In this acclaimed work, the author agrees that certain danger for the Fleet was the result of the Naval Intelligence plot to provoke Japan and FDR's failure to heed the warnings of his Commander in Chief.
Justni Raimondo
November 28th, 2012 at 11:34 am
See my reply below
ragheadthefiendlyterrorist
November 28th, 2012 at 11:36 am
"let us not forget that Operation Barbarossa, far from being a reckless act of pure aggression, was a desperate (and partially successful, from a pan-European perspective) preemptive strike against gargantuan Soviet forces massing along the borders of the Reich, occupied western Poland, and Rumania, staging for an invasion of the entire European continent. Had the Germans not struck first and the Soviets captured the Romanian oil fields, Europe would "
This is complete and utter nonsense. The Soviet armed forces were utterly incapable of mounting a major offensive in 1941 – with an armoured force dedicated (like the British and French a year before) to infantry support, and without armour-piercing shells; with an army whose basic purpose was fighting defensively – and which, when it attacked Finland, was routed when it attempted Blitzkrieg-style thrusts. The Germans, on the other hand, had been planning Barbarossa since 1940.
As for Stalin, if he had wanted to capture Europe, he wouldn't have gone the opposite route to Trotsky and called for "socialism in one country". Stalin's own demands were clear – Eastern Poland (which had been Tsarist territory) and "possibly" Finland (which had been a Tsarist protectorate) – as per Molotov's conference with Ribbentrop in Berlin. He did not even want Estonia, which he was willing to leave in the German sphere of influence.
ragheadthefiendlyterrorist
November 28th, 2012 at 11:46 am
According to Wikipedia,
*An invasion is a military offensive in which large parts of the armed forces of one geopolitical entity aggressively enter territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of either conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory, forcing the partition of a country, altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government, or a combination thereof. *
I fail to see how Franco's attack on the Republican government fails to qualify as an invasion under these terms.
mulegino
November 28th, 2012 at 12:04 pm
You are in error. The Red Army had already proven its combat worthiness when it crushed the Japanese at the Battle of Khalkin Gol in Outer Mongolia back in (1938-'39). Despite heavy losses, the Soviets were still able to breach the Mannerheim Line during the Finnish War, which, in itself, was no small task.
By 1941, the Soviets had annexed Bessarabia, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. The Stalin Line had been largely dismantled; divisions of crack mountain troops were deploying in the Carpathians, and the bulk of the First Strategic Echelon was deployed towards the Romanian frontier, much of it in the Lvov Salient, which made absolutely no sense defensively. The Soviets fielded nearly a million paratroopers (useless for defense), and vastly outnumbered the Germans in men, munitions, artillery and tanks. The bulk of the Soviet air power was destroyed in the first few hours of Barbarossa as the planes were sitting on their tarmacs in airfields very close to the frontier (again, makes no sense in a defensive scenario); the vast encirclements achieved by the Germany Army during the first few weeks of Barbarossa were not made against forces deployed in defensive positions, but of those deployed in the midst of preparation for an invasion.
By November of 1940, subsequent to the last meetings between Hitler and Molotov, Hitler deduced- correctly, that the Soviets were bent on offensive war against Europe.
musings
November 28th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
While I deplore US involvement in the First World War (which killed my husband's paternal grandfather, fighting under the Kaiser), I hardly think that German militarism and ambition was merely a reaction to the Versailles Treaty. Those death's head helmets pre-dated Hitler, as did Wagnerian beliefs in primitive superiority of the "race". The very act of creating a nation out of all those little duchies, with Prussia at the head, was problematic. They were also reacting to Napoleon, but their militarism was an end in itself. The Second World War took care of my husband's maternal grandfather (in a concentration camp), so he never met either of them. The war widow who was his paternal grandmother was also killed then, by Hitler's decree. I say all this knowing that I am 1/4 Prussian (but they left due to some little kerfluffle in Schleswig Holstein back in the 1860's).
musings
November 28th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
I meant "kerfuffle" a word I have always said wrong. It isn't apparently a Germanic word, but a Celtic one.
mulegino
November 28th, 2012 at 12:55 pm
My grandfather was wounded at the Battle of Chateu-Thierry fighting in the AEF, and that wound (mustard gas) probably shortened his life (he died quite young).
Had there been no American involvement in the First World War, it would likely have ended with a negotiated peace, and not the Carthaginian Versailles Treaty. The Bolshevik regime would probably not have made it to the Civil War, much less prevailed; the Germans would probably have removed them from power and installed a friendlier, more accomodating, constitutionalist Czar. There would have been no ruinous reparations regime, no revanchist irridentism (since Germany would have remained intact) and little of the predatory and ruinous partitions of the Middle East, the consequences of which now threaten the peace of the world.
As a matter of fact, it was the betrayal of Wilson's Fourteen Points which was one of the factors which most outraged nationalist Germans. Wilson was like a helpful but clumsy St. Bernard dog who blundered onto the world scene and whose naivete led from one disaster to the other.
San Fernando Curt
November 28th, 2012 at 2:09 pm
When I hear the words "untold history" from a major media outlet – like a cable network – I know it will leave untold oceans of dark Lefty history. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is so devastatingly embarrassing, it's virtually expunged from American school books – approved, as such texts were in my day and are today, by the gassy, progressive National Education Association. Eugenics, that ugly human-breeding program of the last century? The Left's support for it back in the day makes eugenics as issue practically hate speech nowadays. Stalin worked and starved to death millions of unfortunate Russians; those crimes are relentlessly, painstakingly ignored. That truth thingy is so inconvenient.
mulegino
November 28th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
Thanks to the rebellion (begun by Sanjuro, who was killed in a plane crash and carried out successfully by Franco) and the subsequent intervention by the Italians and the Condor Legion, Spain was spared God knows how many decades of Bolshevik tyranny and mass murder.
By the end of the war, the Loyalists, who in the beginning were mostly anarchists, leftist trade unionists and anti-clerical freemasons, had been almost completely eclipsed by the Communists and their NKVD, who carried out executions non-step in the little Lubyankas which had sprung up all over Spanish urban centers; the communists also made off with the Spanish gold reserve for "safekeeping" (never returned). More atrocities were committed in Loyalist held areas than in those controlled by the Nationalists.
mulegino
November 28th, 2012 at 2:52 pm
Actually, the Soviet tanks were superior to the German tanks in terms of quantity, firepower, speed, and armour. The big difference was that the German tanks had better optics, their guns could be aimed at lower angles and, of course, the training and expertise of the German tank crews was overwhelmingly superior to that of their Soviet counterparts. The same goes for Soviet aircraft- they had some highly superior fighters and light bombers- but at the beginning of the war, the Soviet pilots were not trained to dogfight! The Germans bested the Soviets in every tactical sense-superior leadership, training, and tactics- and it showed, as you point out- in the kill ratios they inflicted on the Red Army. As one German general was quoted as saying, "The German Army in Russia is like an elephant confronted by a horde of ants. It will stomp on and kill millions, but it will still be overwhelmed by sheer force of numbers."
mulegino
November 28th, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Stone's narrative is essentially, an evil distortion of history. The USSR, under Lenin, Stalin, and the rest of the Bolshevik mass murderers, was the most brutal, murderous and tyrannical regime seen in Europe since the Mongol invasions. The crimes of the Soviet Union dwarf-by orders of magnitude- those imputed- rightly or wrongly- to the Third Reich. Americans are still held in thrall to the Manichean view of the Second World War as churned out by the History Channel and popular historiography, "The Greatest Generation," etc. America's participation in the Second World War was brought about by FDR's unrelenting, illegal and mendacious campaign to involve the United States in the war against Germany at all costs- even via the back door of provoking Japan. The fact that Great Britain and the United States fought "alongside" an ally as monumentally murderous and brutal as Uncle Joe should forever put the lie to the tale of Allied virtue and Axis evil, or that the war was fought for freedom and "democracy". In essence, it was fought to destroy nationalism, and the German nation in particular. As Churchill is supposed to have said, "The aim of the war is to destroy Germany, whether it is led by a demon or a Jesuit priest."
voicum
November 28th, 2012 at 3:04 pm
it is amusing to see(read) the opinions of a bunch western educated(or maybe not so much)people about things(like socialism or communism or many others) when they do not have a clue to begin whit
Robert Brager
November 28th, 2012 at 3:07 pm
Respectfully, you're taking a narrow view of Lend-Lease and compounding that narrowness of view by focusing on its wrong aspects. Additionally – conveniently for you – you ignore the years prior to the implementation of Lend-Lease, which are crucial to that broader understanding.
Helpful to achieving that broader understanding would be to make the acquaintance of Antony C. Sutton's three volume "Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development", particularly the second volume "1930-1945". It is there you will find that the essence of Lend-Lease was not the transfer of finished goods but instead of technology and prototypes. Furthermore, you will find that Lend-Lease was not exactly new, but an expansion of an existing policy of transferring technology and raw goods that long predated American diplomatic recognition of the Soviet state. The Yak-3 and Yak-9 you cite were in part legacies of those transfers.
Jaime
November 28th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
I doubt the Soviet Union would have "single handedly" defeated a Germany -despite some stupid decisions- not entangled in the West. Considering everything, Germany had the best army and would have defeated anybody on a one-to-one basis. Not for nothing it took the whole world to defeat Germany. The Axis rather than a good thing was a burden: Germany had to rescue the pusillanimous Italians in Crete and North Africa, for example. The Japanese didn't help either, for had the Japs opened an Eastern front in Russia, the war in the East for Germany would have been over and the Third Reich would have turned in full force to face the Allies..
dink
November 28th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
This Oliver Stone film idolizes FDR's VP Henry A. Wallace. As victims of Stalin's gulag note, and you can read in wikipedia (and more direct sources), they put on a dog-and-pony show of the slave labor camps for him (^ Tim Tzouliadis. The Forsaken. The Penguin Press (2008). pp. 217–226. ISBN 978-1-59420-168-4., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_A._Wallace )
Joe
November 28th, 2012 at 6:36 pm
Strange that I have a different perception of this series so far. Of course it is written from the viewpoint of a progressive but it also points out things such as the 1944 DNC which may have been the pivotal moment in our history as it relates to whether we would drop the bomb on Japan or not. It isn't that unlikely that if Wallace had been VP when FDR died then he would have been president and less likely to drop the bomb. Sure it is history told with a slant but it is still history that is untold in schools which is the reason he supposedly wrote the book and produced the Showtime series.
joe112
November 28th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
The Spanish Communist party was actually a pretty small party in Spain before the civil war. The country was governed by a coalition of the Socialist Party & Republican party, with the Republicans in the leadership positions. If there was a revolution, it would have been led by the anarcho-syndicalists, not the Commies. The attempted coup by fascists and subsequent Civil War had the effect of causing the CP to grow significantly. The USSR offered weapons & supplies to Republic, but in exchange they had to give Commies positions in the government – which they exploited to take over.
joe112
November 28th, 2012 at 7:16 pm
Most of the Republicans were not Communists. Anarchists outnumbered the Communists, and so did the Socialist party. The Communists were able to eventually take over due to the support the USSR gave the Republic. Had the US given the same amount of support it likely could have prevented that, and possibly even installed a pro-American government instead. And near the end of the war the Communists were actually overthrown in a coup organized by the non-Communist left.
Sam Lowry
November 28th, 2012 at 10:10 pm
The way I eventually got my head around all these labels:
Once upon a time, people like John Locke articulated the radical notion that for a law to be just, it had to, as a first requirement, apply to everyone equally. At the time, these notions were labeled 'liberalism.' The danger of such an idea to the elites was that it would lead to egalitarianism.
The elites figured out the way to nullify the threat of such dangerous ideas on their rule was to hijack the notion of egalitarianism by turning it on its head and claiming that the function of government was to establish egalitarianism. This notion was termed 'progressivism.'
Meanwhile the term 'egalitarianism' was warped by the establishment not to refer to equal rights, but to equal economic outcome, thus turning the effects of their wealth- and power-generating privilege into 'evidence' of the need for even more political authority.
This is why and how the term 'liberal' has been perverted to mean what it does today, at least in the United States.
Anarcho-Capitalist
November 28th, 2012 at 10:56 pm
Just as a matter of clarification … Stone does mention the Japanese concentration camps in the "The Bomb" episode (just got done watching it on Showtime). He does go into some detail regarding the number of Japanese that were herded off, and that they lost hundreds of millions of dollars in assets, because of their incarceration.
Suvorov
November 28th, 2012 at 10:58 pm
That canard has successfully traveled from the German generals' reports to Hitler, in which they cited cold winter as the excuse for being soundly defeated near Moscow, into the arsenal of Western Cold War propagandists. "Of course, those Ruskies were just aided by their cold winters and had endless supply of cannon fodder and Anglo-American military equipment."
Suvorov
November 28th, 2012 at 11:38 pm
Regarding casualties, I wouldn't even want to think about what kind of casualties America would have suffered had it not been blissfully isolated by the Atlantic. One periodically hears this insular nonsense from the British cousins as well, who get uppity about defeating "The Great Armada", which would have been impossible had the Spanish chosen any other plan of invasion but the most ill-conceived one. The Brits also like to talk about the French surrendering to Hitler. Well, once again, since I am not of the sadistic mindset, I am not even curious as to how many hours it would have taken Hitler to bring the proud British to their knees had they not had their greatest weapon at their disposal: la Manche.
I am afraid you will have to come to terms with the realization that any great battle fought on the Soviet territory, such as at Stalingrad or Kursk was larger in scale than all of the Anglo-American involvement on the Western front. Sorry, but even if your grandparents fought there, compared to one of those battles, the Normandy invasion was a minor skirmish. My apologies if historical facts don't support your Amero-centric view of the world.
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 12:26 am
Antony Sutton hasdone some great research into the origins of the Bolshevik Revolution, but, also respectfully, what is your point? So if Nikola Tesla invented alternating current and radio (as well as hundreds of other patents), are you going to talk about the transfer of Serbian technology to the otherwise helpless United States? Yes, USSR made use of American inventors just as the US has always made use of inventors from all over the world. And guess what, if you go to any prestigious engineering school in America now, you won't meet too many native-born engineers. Yet, for some reason you wouldn't depict America as essentially a banana republic that is entirely dependent on foreign brains. At the same time, we always hear about USSR stealing nuclear technologies (which are somehow meant to be organically American) and being first in space only because they used the ideas of Werner von Braun (I would like to meet a scientist who doesn't build on the ideas of the others). In other words, I would like to know what "Western technology" is. Are technologies from the Country of the Rising Sun Western? If you answer that they are based on Western technologies, are you prepared to concede that most military inventions are Eastern because the Chinese have invented gunpowder?
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 12:37 am
"I doubt the Soviet Union would have "single handedly" defeated a Germany…"
"Germany had the best army and would have defeated anybody on a one-to-one basis."
If you talk about "one-to-one basis", I think you have to specify whether that includes a total of several million men from nearly entire Europe who fought in Wehrmacht, as well as practically all of industrial resources on the continent outside of USSR (and after June 22, 1941 also in Western part of the USSR) that were available to the Reich.
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 12:47 am
In fact, the killing ratio is not nearly as impressive as some would like it to be. The average between several different estimates of German casualties is around 7 million, whereas for the Soviets it is over 8 million (military, not civilian!) Thus, it is actually relatively close to 1:1.
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 12:55 am
"…the russians lost more than the germans in virtually ever major battle."
Completely false. Once the Soviets irreversibly seized the initiative after the Battle of Kursk (July, 1943), German casualties were consistently higher.
mickperry
November 29th, 2012 at 1:04 am
Surely the difference between a progressive and a liberal is that a progressive recognises and responds to the urgent need for radical systemic change, whereas the liberal's central concern remains their own self advancement through careerism, which by necessity requires maintaining the status quo.
In these critical times maintaining the status quo requires providing material support to a largely corporate driven 'end times' culture.
The term 'progressive' is itself an unfortunate choice of word in that it suggests that time is linear, and Martin King reflected upon this conundrum during the long hours he spent incarcerated in the Birmingham jail in Alabama. The letter penned from his cell to local church leaders addressing this and much more has been dramatised and is available as a You tube video.
He also grapples with John Locke's notion of just and unjust laws with admirable clarity.
Oswaldwasalefty
November 29th, 2012 at 2:11 am
Saw a documentary about Stalingrad recently. The Soviets not only had a better winter clothing, but the scopes on their guns were better. They were simply better equipped for a knock down, drag out fight. In the end they simply had more bodies and natural resources to through into the fight.
17ur
November 29th, 2012 at 2:58 am
As a Russian, I welcome your opinion about 'awful tacticians', 'poor equipment' and '4 times the soldiers' and other BS like 'general Mud' (I wonder if thought about mud hindering Russian forces escaping *kessel* as much as Germans sealing it – ever occured in your… umm.. brains). Best of all, maintaining this opinion doesn't cost us a dime; western&eastern chest-thumpers do this job for free or for money taken from their own populations.
Please, be sure of yourself, think you are 10' tall and enjoy your superiortiy. It worked for us every time for last 700 years.
Sincerely yours, inferior, always wrong and ideologically sinful Russian.
tadzio308
November 29th, 2012 at 3:18 am
"Stone bewails the fact that the Western powers, particularly France, did nothing when Hitler’s army marched into the Rhineland. It never occurs to him to ask: why…" One reason was that PM Leon Blum had shipped all of France's heavy attillery to the Reds in Spain and was not in a position to halt Mr. Hitler. Blum was sort of a neocon in his day, a dual loyalist, or even a tri-loyalist. France was his last love. The only statue to him that I am aware of is, of course, in Israel. One suspects this will be true of Kristol, Feith, Wolfowitz and nearly all who lied us in to the Mid East wars past and the future one in Iran.
richard vajs
November 29th, 2012 at 6:10 am
Thanks for all of your views. I appreciate clarity in this era of "framing" and just grabbing epithets by the heels and tossing them against others.
One of the most honest public voices today is Chris Hedges' and one of his views is that the American liberals" have traded their right to outrage (to our imperialism, to our growing inequality, to our abandonment of true American ideals) for their own personal comfort. The "liberals" like their sinecures, their tenures and the "opportunities" for their own children, much more than the headaches involved in opposing the Establishment and the corrupt, corporate, status quo.
Hopefully the progressives will maintain some honor during this country's slide into decay.
Jaime
November 29th, 2012 at 7:35 am
Can you compare the "tremendous" industrial base and the "awesome" power of the armies that sided with the Third Reich with those that sided with the Soviet Union? Surely Bulgaria. Romania, and so on could compare with the US, Britain, Canada and the rest of the world. The only respectable armed forces on the side of the Third Reich was Japan's, but Japan's influence on the European theater was negligible. I am from South America. Did you know that we "had" to support the Allies' war effort in different ways? Even Colombia and Brazil sent troops to fight against the Wehrmacht? I am not in favour of the Nazis, but the truth is the truth, I understand that you as a Russian defend your point of view and definitely Russia's actions were heroic in the extreme. Moreover, I also believe that the Soviet Union bore the brunt of the war. But I still think that the Wehrmacht was the finest army of its time.
Sam Lowry
November 29th, 2012 at 7:48 am
Government is always inherently parasitic. It always operates for the benefit of a tiny elite at the expense of everyone else. At the same time, government must maintain the consent of the governed. The way it does this is to convince the plebeian they are being ruled for their own good.
Unfortunately this is frightfully easy to do. The politicians, for example, buy our votes with our own money—after taking out a cut to finance their wars and boondoggles of course.
But mostly they simply lie. Different lies work on different people. One lie in particular is that our economic prosperity is not the product of trade and capital investment made possible by saving, technology, and the hard work of individuals, but is instead a blessing bestowed by government central planners as advised by an intellectual elite, directing an army of selfless government bureaucrats working for the greater good. People who know less than nothing about economics, yet imagine themselves members of the intellectual elite are particularly susceptible to this lie. They are sure of their own good intentions. Consequently, they think the only problem with government is that they, or someone more ideologically like them, isn't in charge. Such people are 'progressives.'
The second scariest thing I've ever seen was the ease with which people were manipulated into supporting the U.S. invasion of Iraq with blatant lies.
The scariest thing I've ever seen is how eagerly people abandoned their concern for war and civil rights once Obama got elected.
@rossvassilev
November 29th, 2012 at 8:14 am
Gee, Raimondo, I never knew you were a fan of Franco and the Falange. I guess what's happening today in Latin America must be driving you nuts. And your summarized history of the Spanish Civil War is total garbage.
Ed Gluck
November 29th, 2012 at 10:07 am
Good for mentioning Debs and his position against the U.S. entering the Great War. There should be more said of Congressman Lindbergh with the solution to the U.S. leading the way in not getting involved in wars for the Plutocracy. First the economic system should be changed back to capitalism. I can send my attachment to anyone who requests it at: EdGluck2@yahoo.com. It includes my preface to Lindbergh's book, "Why Are We at War" which along with Smedley Butler's give a view of history that needs to be taught to Americans.
mulegino
November 29th, 2012 at 10:16 am
Barbarossa: 5-1
Bagration: approximately 2-1
Citadel: +3-1
Kursk: +4-1
Stalingrad: approximately 1-1
Berlin: 2-1
With regards to tanks, the kill ratio is far higher.
Of course, the kill ratios are not a commentary on the fighting spirit, courage or skill of the Red Army soldiers, but are more a reflection of the reckless disregard for human life of the Soviet commanders, and, of course, the system as a whole.
mulegino
November 29th, 2012 at 10:24 am
I agree with you about Britain; without the Channel, French would now be calling British "surrender monkeys"; it was the British who ran to Dunkirk while the French covered their retreat. The British were beaten badly by the Germans in Norway, France, and Crete. But their most humiliating defeat came at the hands of the Japanese at Singapore.
As for the United States, had it not been for the Eastern Front, neither they, nor the British, would have established a beachhead in Normandy.
I believe that the grandparents referred to were fighting in the First World War, not the Second, and the battles on the Western Front in that war were as large as those on the Eastern Front in the Second.
mulegino
November 29th, 2012 at 10:27 am
Actually, the Germans would most likely have won the Battle of Kursk if the Allied landings in Sicily had not necessitated the withdrawal of the Gross Deutschland and the Liebenstandarte "superunits" to the Italian front.
liveload
November 29th, 2012 at 10:54 am
Kursk or no, Germany did not have the logistical capability to defeat the USSR. The long range bombers to reach factories in the Urals never materialized. Germany could not supply her troops deep into the USSR and could not stop the Soviet War Industry. There's no way Hitler could have won and his Generals told him that.
War game after war game brought the logistical failings of the Wehrmacht and allies into sharp relief. Ford, Prescott, IBM, and other American capitalists could no longer support Hitler overtly after the beginning of 1942. Germany's industry and resource control had already declined to the point that the outcome of the war was inevitable at that point.
One could argue that the war was lost for the fascists when Mussolini's troops lost control of Ethiopia and allowed the British Empire to continue to steal Middle Eastern and African Oil.
It didn't help matters at all when the British Empire and the Soviet Union decided to invade and occupy a declared neutral Iran in 1941 so they could steal their oil and use the newly built rail networks.
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 11:55 am
Thank you for reminding me about Dunkirk. Not only did the British run there but they were allowed by Hitler to escape. So, strictly speaking, even the Channel would not have helped them had Hitler not been a pathological Anglophile.
Bobbieman
November 29th, 2012 at 11:59 am
Soviet Russia did destroy the bulk of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front, despite the fact that the Germans outfought them most of the time.
The Germans lost in the east because they were greatly outnumbered in men and material, because of their brutal policies toward the peoples in the areas of Soviet Russia they overran, and due to spies like Rudolf Roessler and the Red Orchestra, who telegraphed German movements to the Soviets all the way down to the unit level.
Despite their military efficiency, they could not overcome all these obstacles. The Germans lost about 250 K men killed or captured after Stalingrad. The Soviets lost that many — or close to it — in battle after battle with little or no effect.
It is indeed unfortunate that Stalin and Hitler were not allowed to destroy each other in the East.
Whoever was the ultimate victor (and it probably would have been the USSR) would have been too weakened to pose a threat to anybody.
mickperry
November 29th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
They could achieve much more and carry the day amidst a populist groundswell Richard.
I too have a deep respect for Chris Hedges' work, he is a courageous and honest citizen. It is instructive to note that he sees none, or very little investigative journalism published on today's internet, and alarming to realise that when he says that the FISA Amendment Act has undermined the craft within traditional media also he is entirely correct. This is all so reminiscent of the media lock-down in the old Soviet Union that you begin to wonder whether some form of new samizdat isn't inevitably going to emerge? Nature after all abhors a vacuum, and we may have seen a precursor in WikiLeaks
With money being tight we rarely buy new in our household nowadays, and rely mainly on second hand bookshops. This Christmas though we will be splashing out on Mr Hedges 'Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt', and maybe David Cromwell's 'Why are We the Good Guys?' and 'Hot Fat and Clouded' by Barrett Brown.
Anyway, back to Oliver Stone movies and thanks for replying.
robertB
November 29th, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Discard the current labels. Relativism of such labels, and progressive perversion over the last generations renders them meaningless. As an example of relativism, an extreme hard line communist in the eastern bloc is called a conservative.
Ancient Greece to the rescue – we revert to the principle of nomos and physis, analytic and synthetic, deductive and inductive, objective and subjective universalism, one and the many …
Any 'left-wing', liberal, communist, socialist, etc, is analytic: top down thinking, centralism, with the individual made to conform to the system. They're analytic, deductive, objective universalists.
Any 'right-wing', conservative (I mean proper conservative), republican (again, proper republican in the historical sense, as the constitution intended, states rights, etc): inductive, i.e. bottom up thinking, based upon the actions of the self-directed individual to form the state. From many, one. They're synthetic, inductive, and subjective universalists.
An ancient philosopher supposedly said that 'Once a man discovers the one and the many, he sees them everywhere and in everything, and there's no stopping it'. It certainly helps to cut through the BS when analyzing anything, instantly. What does consistently surprise is the incoherent thought and policy that is revealed. Try analyzing Democratic and Republican party platforms and see.
The hard part would be creating descriptive tags that have a nice ring to them; something the mob can remember easily.
mulegino
November 29th, 2012 at 2:28 pm
This is more evidence that Barbarossa, far from being a reckless act of aggression, was a desperate preemptive strike, undertaken by forces which were overwhelmingly outnumbered- against a massive buildup of men and material on the western borders of the Reich, the General Government, Finland, Romania, etc.- poised to overrun Europe.
The Germans did not have a fleet of long range bombers because the Luftwaffe- unlike the RAF and eventually, the USAAF, did not subscribe to Douhet's theories on strategic bombing. The Luftwaffe was a tactical arm of the Wehrmacht, whose primary mission was to provide close air support for ground and naval combat operations, and anti-aircraft or flak batteries. Another myth of the "good war" propaganda is that Germany began the deliberate targeting of civilian targets as such- this is false. The bombings of Warsaw and Rotterdam were legitimate siege bombing tactics, undertaken as ground forces were assaulting these targets- no different than an artillery bombardment in support of an assault. The British began the bombing of German cities once Churchill got into power, and they deliberately provoked the Germans into a tit for tat retaliation- which the Luftwaffe was not designed for.
liberranter
November 29th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
The Germans could have taken Moscow anyway even in the early winter of '41; in fact, German infantry units actually reached the outer suburbs of Moscow in December. Inexplicably (or perhaps because he was just plain crazy as well as a lousy strategist), Hitler at that very point ordered his generals to move south to the Caucasus and the southern oil fields instead of on the capitol. One wonders why the German generals, few of whom held Hitler in any regard, didn't just disobey orders at that point and storm in.
liberranter
November 29th, 2012 at 3:23 pm
But then again, they were probably smarter than we give them credit for. More than a few probably realized that capturing Moscow (or anywhere else in Russia) and holding it for the long term were two different things altogether.
liberranter
November 29th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
One would think that Napoleon's army's experiences during the winter of 1812 would have been more than enough to discourage, for all time, anyone from even thinking of invading Russia. As one historian put it when discussing Operation Barbarossa: "Adolf Hitler proved that it’s not only teenagers who think, “It can’t happen to me.”
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Was that a PBS or BBC documentary? Not that the two are considerably different from each other.
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 5:24 pm
It is not as inexplicable as you seem to think. Not only did the Germans reach the outskirts of Moscow, but they were also defeated there and pushed back in the first Soviet counteroffensive immediately following the Battle of Moscow. Having been taken by surprise by the swift Soviet action, Hitler ordered the troops to reorganize for defensive warfare.
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 5:33 pm
Again, the 5:1 ratio is simply not supported by facts. As I mentioned, the Soviet military casualties were over 8 million. And even if we take the lowest of all estimates of German casualties, it is still around 5 million, which doesn't even reach the 2:1 ratio, let alone 5:1. Are you by chance including civilian deaths?
Regarding Operation Bagration (the largest one in history), the ratio is indeed probably something like 2:1, but I think you are implying that it was the Soviets who suffered higher casualties.
amacd385
November 29th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Excellent analysis and insight by Justin — to focus on the seminal issue of Empire.
I've long called WWII the Second World War of Empires.
Despite coming from different angles, I sense a bit more unity of purpose between the left Stone and the principled right Raimondo in converging on the real cancer of Empire, which is the cause of all evils.
My comment to the "Nation" on Mitchell's article:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/171442/interview-ol…
"Stone and Kuznick's main focus is to — expose and educate people to the Disguised Global Empire (DGE), the corporate/financial/militarist and media Empire, that the US has become.
Actually, the US has not so much become, or morphed into this DGE, as it has been 'captured' and now fully "Occupied" by this Empire, which has taken over our former country by hiding behind the facade of its 'bought and owned', modernized, and TWO-Party 'Vichy' sham of faux-democratic and totally illegitimate government —- just as the earlier Nazi Empire tried (somewhat unsuccessfully) to hide its 'capture' and "Occupation" of France c. 1940 behind its cruder and only single-party 'Vichy' facade regime of false government."
"Stone is clearly trying to demonstrate and educate Americans, through the more accessible media of TV, the lessons of the Empire's cancerous metastasis which Chalmers Johnson, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Christopher Hedges, Michael Parenti, Sheldon Wolin, Morris Berman, Earl Shorris, and many others have tried to convey through academic works, essays, and even dying articles."
Best,
Alan
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 8:24 pm
Regardless of what Romania was as a country, it had oil reserves which were at Hitler's disposal, just as ALL of the natural resources on the Continent and in Scandinavia were for several years. That is the point. All of the European industry, other than British and for the most part Soviet, was under German control. Was the Wehrmacht the finest military of its time? In 1941 it certainly was, but the Russians proved to be good learners.
amacd385
November 29th, 2012 at 8:24 pm
liveload, thanks for the information on the British Empire and Soviet Empire's '41 invasion of Iran for oil.
Best,
Alan
Suvorov
November 29th, 2012 at 8:35 pm
Finally, since nearly everyone here mentioned the Soviet numerical advantage, I feel I have to make a clarification. Yes, the Soviet military was larger than Wehrmacht overall. What many don't seem to realize, however, is that most of those soldiers were not located anywhere near the Western border at the time of the German invasion. The Germans, on the other hand, amassed a force of 5 million men on the border. Therefore, they in fact vastly outnumbered (let alone outgunned and outsupplied) the Red Army in any theater of military action during the initial phase of the conflict.
john
November 29th, 2012 at 11:48 pm
You are so right. I read a biography of Beria. The Reds were insane in their blood lust, They were machine gunning and sabering nurses and their Boy Scouts.
john
November 29th, 2012 at 11:51 pm
A friend of my brother was a grunt with the 9th Division in WW11. He said that the Germans kicked their ass up to the Rhine River.
JMRRPress
November 30th, 2012 at 7:34 pm
Justin has his spin on the Spanish Civil War. Here is an alternative:
The Spanish Civil War, 70 Years On: The Deafening Silence on Franco's Genocide http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/07/19/how-spain-…
theCL Report: Soaring Debt & Microchips
November 30th, 2012 at 10:27 pm
[...] Oliver Stone's Untold History: A Twice-Told Tale [...]
mulegino
December 1st, 2012 at 2:34 pm
They were indeed insane. The mass rapes carried out near the end of the war- virtually all women they encountered, between the ages of 8 and 80- can only be characterized as satanic depravity. It is one thing to have a few bad apples in a conquering army; it is quite another to have most of the army turned into a howling mass of fiendish sexual predators. This is the kind of "heroism" which should be flung right back in the face of the philo-Bolshevik dupes like Stone.
logicCom
December 8th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
I'm currently reading the Stone text, and am confused about multiple criticisms/oversights described in the subject (Raimondo) article. I believe most, so far (page 234) have indeed been covered by Stone. I've also read the excellent book by Zinn, by the same name, and would, of course, not expect a Hollywood film maker, by definition a profit-seeking entity, to compete with the likes of Zinn, Chomsky, etc.
Michael Collins
December 10th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
At last Justin has told us where he and the rest of the Libertarian fey anti-war clique stand on the history war in the 20th Century. My reductivist view has always been you are either anti-Fascist or Anti-Communist, but you can't be both or neither. There is no Middle of the Road or Third Way–though there does seem to be a Third Force stalking the earth and stoking the war fires by setting off unrevindicated car and suicide bombs in public places throughout today's vast, even global, war zone. But JR's reflexive anti-Sovietism (i.e., left anti-communism) has forced him into that Corporate Skybox from which he can pretend a certain Olympian omniscience and a panoramic view of History that allows him to be categorically anti-war without taking any side. For him all wars are Civil Wars and the aggressor and aggressed are on the same moral plane. This is obviously a luxury that no REAL historian can afford–hence his sad plea for donations. And his notion of the Obama 'cult' will certainly put off at least 53% of the American electorate. For calling President Obama a war monger–or a serial killer, as another anti-imperialist put it–in no way advances an effective critique of America's boundless, blood-thirsty militarism. And that is, after all, what anti-imperialism is about, n'est-ce pas?
gordon mac donald
December 10th, 2012 at 2:15 pm
Actually if the USA hadn't been unloading endless supplies to the Russians,then they would never had been able to get their Empire up and running at all!!!
Gordon Mac Donald
December 10th, 2012 at 2:25 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g0XyosEza8
Above is an interesting German documentary,(with English voice over,) of the causes leading to the second world war,as well as Stalin's interest in securing his agenda of World Communism through it.
Commentating on Stone’s Untold History of the States « The Voluntaryist Reader
January 13th, 2013 at 11:23 am
[...] among libertarians. Sure enough, once part one of the series was released both mostly positive and mostly negative reactions by visible libertarians followed. Here is my take on the first part of his series [...]
Hijacking the Revolution 2.0 « Towards Healthcare Emancipation
January 25th, 2013 at 5:44 am
[...] Read more » [...]
Raimondo challenges Stone’s ‘Untold History’ « History in a Hurry
January 31st, 2013 at 2:22 pm
[...] http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2012/11/27/oliver-stones-untold-history-a-twice-told-tale/ [...]
Quick hits « bobsbox
February 7th, 2013 at 7:39 am
[...] Phony Revisionism From Oliver Stone [...]
Luther Bliss
February 17th, 2013 at 9:53 am
When Raimondo writes off Republican Spain as "Communist" he ironically proves the whole point of Stone's documentary: that the word 'communist' became the great thought-killer of American political life!
Simply apply that label to any country and you can coup, blockade it, strangle it, let fascists destroy it, drop bombs on it, let govt. kill their own population to prevent the spread of it, Anything is justified.
When a democratically elected government is attacked by terrorists dependent on foreign air power and heavy-weapons, tanks and troops – I back the government.
Hell – when he same thing happens to non-democratic countries like Libya and Syria my sympathies are still with the government. I don't let 'state hate' ideologically blind me.
As for 'Colonel' Robert McCormick, even taking all the current paelo-conservative revision of him into account, I find it hard to support a guy whose support for "universal military training, a large navy, and a bellicose foreign policy….extraterritorial rights in China … and US colonialism in Latin America" only seemed to changed into isolationism when FDR and Hitler came to power…