In the wake of the horrific Oslo bombing and subsequent mass murder at a Norwegian Labor party youth camp, the ideological motivation of Anders Behring Breivik has come under some very close scrutiny, and a debate is in progress about how much the anti-Muslim bloggers who supposedly inspired the killer have to take responsibility. Robert Spencer, an associate of David Horowitz and his misnamed “Freedom Center,” has come under the media microscope, along with Pamela “Shrieking Harpy” Geller – who used the killings as an opportunity to promote her new book – and in particular the “Gates of Vienna” (GoV) blog, which published many essays by the now-infamous blogger known as “Fjordman.” All of these charming folks were cited in Breivik’s manifesto [.pdf], which was released hours before the crime.
Naturally, the GoV types have have been jumping up and down in a frenzy of denial and refuse to take any responsibility for Breivik. Spencer, Geller, and “Baron Bodissey,” proprietor of GoV, are all now crying “persecution” over the media frenzy surrounding their ideas and activities, and denouncing the whole thing as a plot to discredit “freedom fighters” like themselves. Do they have a point?
In spite of the fact that my previous columns on the Norway massacre clearly assigned them their share of guilt in this matter, I thought it best to reexamine the issue in light of their vigorous denials, especially in view of their argument that most of their accusers hadn’t even read their various essays and blog posts and are unfamiliar with the various web sites cited numerous times by Breivik’s cobbled together “manifesto.”
Okay, I thought, let’s give them the benefit of a doubt. After all, although I am – unfortunately – all too familiar with the web sites of both Geller and Horowitz, I hadn’t done anything but skim the contents of “Gates of Vienna,” which is co-published by a couple in Fairfax, Virginia. So I went to the site, and the top post was indeed a plea for reason in an atmosphere of hysteria:
“Non-violent people who support lefty causes are not required to denounce or repudiate those who commit violence on behalf of causes they share. Nobody ever blames them for inspiring the violence. They are not described in the popular press as “indirectly responsible” for it. ”And that’s because they aren’t. Nobody who sincerely opposes violence and works for change solely through peaceful means is responsible for violence committed in the name of a cause they otherwise support. ”Only people who advocate, promote, incite, or commit violence are responsible for that violence. Period.”
A different standard, however, applies to conservatives, says “Baron Bodissey.” So answering the charges being hurled by “the left” is “a mug’s game,” and the Baron “refuses to participate,” as should all “counter-jihadists.”
I absolutely agree that “only those who advocate, promote, incite, or commit violence are responsible for that violence.” The critics of the “counter-jihadists” have argued, however, that the ideas advocated and promoted by such sites as GoV are inherently violent, and, furthermore, that is their intent. Or, as I put it in one of my columns, “Spencer and Geller are the theory, Breivik is the practice.” But is this argument really fair? After all, libertarianism says that all governments everywhere are nothing less (or more) than criminal gangs, the enemies of freedom and progress – and so, given this premise, isn’t libertarianism the theory, and, say, Tim McVeigh the practice?
When it is put like that, the question is a real clarifier: after all, as Gore Vidal showed in his essay on McVeigh, the perpetrator of the Oklahoma City bombing, which killed and maimed innocent people, was an opponent of Big Government with decidedly libertarian leanings. So aren’t libertarians responsible, in some sense, for the death and destruction he wreaked?
Well, no – because no libertarian with any standing has ever advocated violence against the State. Instead, libertarians have sought to educate the public, run for office, and engage in constitutionally protected peaceful activities to promote their ideas. At the time, libertarians answered attacks by the left (and others) by pointing this out, to little avail. President Bill Clinton and his supporters in the Democratic party went out of their way to demonize anyone who could be tagged as “anti-government’ to smear their political opponents. I even wrote a pamphlet attacking this propaganda campaign, and trying to set the record straight. So I can sympathize, at least to some extent, with a similar effort on the part of sincere “counter-jihadists” to separate themselves from a clearly deranged “comrade” gone astray. So I continued to read the post at GoV, which invited me to discover the truth for myself:
“I realize that asking people not to believe what they read in the papers is like asking sheep not to eat grass. But here goes… ”Many of you have been pointed to this “hate blog” by various media sources. Your newspapers and TV outlets have described what we are all about, and have told you what you must think of us. Then they sent you here so that you could gaze at the monster yourself. ”But now that you are actually here, you don’t have to take their word for it. You can read it for yourself. Check out the links on the sidebar …”
Okay, so I did just that – and what did I find?
I found, prominently displayed, “On Vigilantism, Part I,” an essay by someone who calls himself (herself?) “El Inglés,” dated April 5, 2010. It starts out with an amazingly accurate prediction:
“I have argued in an earlier series of essays, appropriately titled ‘On the Failure of Law Enforcement’, that the law enforcement institutions of European countries faced with ever-larger Muslim populations are incapable, in a deep, structural sense, of adequately addressing the criminality of those populations while they continue to operate under extant paradigms. If this conclusion is accepted, then one arrives without particular difficulty at a further conclusion: that vigilante activity is likely to emerge in response. This being the case, I propose to present in this essay a speculative initial analysis of the likely characteristics of the vigilantes and vigilantism that will soon be seen in Europe as a consequence of pressures we are all too familiar with.”
How interesting: Breivik’s inspirers anticipated his actions, on some level, and wrote about it a full year before they occurred. However, what I thought would be a polemic against vigilantism turned out to be anything but.
Instead, what followed was, as the subtitle put it, an examination of “strategic options, realistic and unrealistic.” The author argues that one could engage in mass violence aimed at, say, “Somali gang members in the UK” but this would have certain disadvantages in the absence of “a complete breakdown of civil order.” The “apparatus of state” – which is depicted as unwilling to “enforce the law with respect to criminal minorities” – is the major obstacle (and major enemy) of would-be anti-Muslim vigilantes, and given this kind of powerful adversary, “El Inglés” asks, “what objectives are serious vigilantes likely to set themselves?”
The chilling answer is clear enough. The author lists several “realistic” objectives that vigilantes might achieve, first being a modification of the State’s response (or lack of it) to alleged “Muslim criminals”:
“Altering the response of the apparatus of state to Muslim crime may well emerge as one of the most obvious motivations for vigilante activity. If one is concerned about Somali drug-dealing and the lack of effective response by the state, then executing a few Somali drug-dealers and then calling a national newspaper with a) the justification for the killing and b) the calibre of the handgun used in the executions (for purposes of establishing one’s identity) will be likely to focus a certain amount of attention on the problem. Governments seem to be very good at pretending that certain types of crime do not exist apart from in the imaginations of bigots and meanies like the current author, but there are undoubtedly ways of suggesting the opposite that will be difficult for them to ignore.”
Scary, yes, but it gets scarier. Another “realistic” objective of anti-Muslim vigilantes is “polarization”:
“I have argued in past essays that it is extremely unlikely that extant political elites and mainstream political parties will be up to the task of dealing with the existential problems Islam and Muslims pose to Europe. If this argument proves to be correct, then it is highly probable that non-state actors will emerge who believe they can do so. Should such an organization exist in embryonic form in some European country (and if they do not, they soon will), then polarizing the situation beyond the point of repair and trying to force a confrontation while the demographic situation favours natives to the greatest extent possible may come to be seen as a valid objective.”
Like the ultra-left of the 1960s, in both the US and Europe, the ultra-rightists of the new millennium want their violence to signify the advent of a Manichean struggle of Good vs. Evil. They want to force the attention of the sleeping West on the “problem” of Islam by shocking them out of their torpor before it’s too late. Like the Narodniks of Tsarist Russia, or the Weathermen of Nixon’s America, they hope their violence will produce a crisis in which the old regime will be toppled – and they’ll come out on top.
This is an old story: extreme ideologists have often resorted to this strategy, with predictably disastrous results, both for them and for their innocent victims. However, what’s new about this particular story is that a blogger on GoV, well in advance of Breivik’s monstrous act, predicted with near absolute certainty that organizations such as Breivik’s “Knights Templar” would spring up and commit “polarizing” crimes. Not only that, but they would do so in the context of Breivik’s insistence that time is not on the counter-jihadists’ side, and that a demographic time bomb is about to go off – if bombs like the one Breivik planted didn’t detonate first.
I have no doubt that Norwegian law enforcement, if and when they become aware of this particular blog post on GoV, would be very interested to learn the author’s identity. For it certainly seems that if anyone had a clue as to the existence of Breivik’s plot before he went on his rampage, then surely “El Inglés” is a prime suspect.
It gets more blood-curdling as one wades through the miasma of hate and eagerly-anticipated violence, especially as the author’s style tries to mimic the “objective” prose of a scientific study or scholarly research paper. Thus the most disturbingly violent acts are examined, one by one, as “tactical options – suicidal and homicidal.” They include, in order of escalating violence, “warnings” – “Of course, in the absence of a willingness to resort to the other options we will consider below, this will be a hollow threat indeed” – “property damage,” “beatings/maimings,” and “executions.”
The author’s advice to would-be vigilantes engaged in damaging the property of Muslim “criminals” in their midst is to “pick one’s target well.” The first rule of vigilantism, Gates of Vienna-style, is don’t pick on anyone likely to fight back: “The objective of vigilante behaviour is to prevent repetitions of the undesirable behaviour,” but
“Smashing the windscreen of the neighbourhood [presumably Muslim] drug lord is likely to have slightly different effects, as a drug lord is a) unlikely to mend his wicked ways over a broken windscreen, and b) very likely to search out the vigilante(s) in question and seek redress for the damage to his vehicle.”
Beatings and maimings, in the view of the author, are much more likely to advance the vigilante’s goals and the counter-jihadist cause. “El Inglés” cites the example of the IRA, which “kneecapped” “serious criminals and recidivists” in areas where they were strong. However, the big problem was that they existed in those communities on the sufferance of local residents: “Brutality cannot be inflicted arbitrarily on the members of a community whose favour one needs.”
Fortunately, in the author’s view, such brutality can be inflicted arbitrarily on Muslim immigrants, who can be separated out from the general population:
“In contrast, any group of European vigilantes intent on taking the law into their own hands vis-à-vis Muslim crime would not suffer this restriction. Exceptional brutality will always have the potential to repel supporters and potential supporters, but it stands to reason that vigilantes in, say, Denmark, visiting impromptu justice on Arab street thugs in Copenhagen will have a much higher threshold of violence they have to cross before such revulsion starts to work against them. Indeed, everyday Danes tired of the Muslim crime now contaminating their country may well look to such people as their saviours, affording them support of various types. This will open up the potential for exceptional violence.”
One doesn’t have to interpret this, because there is no doubt where the author – and the editors of Gates of Vienna, who have published dozens of similar essays by “El Inglés” – stand. They seek to advance the threshold of violence, step by step, from the street thuggery of the English Defense League to the “exceptional violence” epitomized by Breivik’s mass execution of “traitors.” Speaking of which, the final “tactical option” entertained by “El Inglés” is, indeed, “executions.”
I know, this is gross, but bear with me a bit longer.
After a few preliminaries about the ineffectiveness of dealing with Muslim “criminals” in nonviolent ways, the author concludes
“The efficacy of non-lethal violence in persuading these people to behave themselves in a more civilized manner is likely to be close to be zero. This leaves vigilantes with only one obvious option, which is to kill off the people in question. This will have the twin effects of a) making it impossible for them to engage in further crime, and b) creating at least some possibility that others like them might decide on a change of career.”
Let us stop, here, catch our breath, and note how this fits in with the tactics employed by Breivik: he chose as a target a youth camp run by the ruling Norwegian Labor party, which he considers a party of Quislings. The camp was traditionally attended by the most promising of the Labor Party’s future leaders: in planning his atrocity, did Breivik hope such an act might make others like them “decide on a change of career”? I’d be unsurprised to learn that this particular passage inspired Breivik in his choice of targets, but, in any case, it looks very much like the folks at Gates of Vienna and Breivik are on exactly the same wavelength.
What is shocking about the writing of “El Inglés” is the supremely casual, cold-blooded way in which the most violent acts are discussed: it is a terrorist tract written in the style of the directions on a box of Stovetop Stuffing. Executions are “the nuclear option for vigilantes,” avers “El Inglés,” but
“This should not be taken to imply that it will be a last resort for anti-Muslim vigilantes. It seems likely that any serious would-be vigilante will think his options through carefully enough in advance to realize that certain types of action are likely to be ineffective. Those who think that knocking on the door of the local Pakistani heroin-dealer’s door and advising him to see the error of his ways will constitute effective vigilante action will not last long enough to have much of an effect on the proceedings either way. People of good faith can only hope that such folk recognize their lack of suitability for vigilante action in advance, and support the struggle against the Islamization of their countries in other ways.”
If you aren’t a warrior, like the author, or Breivik, then don’t bother with half-way measures. To the Gates of Vienna crowd, why should murder – even mass murder of children – be a last resort, when the future of Europe is at stake? It was Breivik’s first resort: in spite of his statements about how he was maneuvered out of running for office on the Progress Party ticket – an anti-immigrant, anti-libertarian grouping – news reports have him only attending five or six meetings of the party’s youth group, where he is barely remembered.
This essay by “El Inglés” seems to be an eerie premonition of Breivik’s murderous crime, not as a warning but as an encouragement. And it gets eerier as we progress through the morass of hateful verbiage, in its presentiment of Breivik’s meticulous preparations – particularly when it comes to his manifesto, released hours prior to the massacre, and accompanying video.
In the third and final section of his essay, entitled “Image is Everything,” “El Inglés” advises the potential anti-Muslim terrorist that “The likely importance of a good PR campaign to serious vigilantes cannot be overestimated.” Don’t beat, maim, and murder without issuing “a robust, well-argued, and entirely unapologetic presentation of the vigilante case against both the disproportionate criminality of Muslims and the neglect of the issue by the government.”
Breivik surely took this lesson to heart, supposedly spending years compiling his manifesto. At 1,500-plus pages it is certainly “robust,” although I don’t know how one could call it well-argued: its theme of imminent Muslim victory over the West is simply asserted. It is, however, certainly as unapologetic as its author. Breivik clearly hoped his manifesto would give him the kind of good public relations envisioned by “El Inglés” as entirely possible:
“If the actions of vigilantes can successfully be presented as mindless acts of tribally-motivated violence, then the response of the apparatus of state will simply be to crack down on them with its full resources. If, on the other hand, they can effectively engage in counter-PR, then everything will change.”
Here is where Breivik – and “El Inglés” – miscalculated. The response to Breivik’s heinous act has been near-universal revulsion, a reaction that has only been heightened by his vigorous efforts to justify it. But when you’re so trapped inside a self-constructed ideological box that you can’t see any moral problem in beating, maiming, and murdering people, then your mental processes soon go the way of your long-lost moral sense.
Nothing underscores this better than the bizarre manner in which “El Inglés” illustrates his point by positing two different hypothetical examples of anti-Muslim terrorist acts. Both involve storming and taking a house of prostitution run by Pakistani pimps, who are holding British girls in white slavery on British soil:
“Both groups pick the same house, storm it in identical fashion, kill exactly the same people in exactly the same way, and make a successful getaway. Here though, they part company. Group A, in response to the consequent furore and police investigation, issue a video statement to the effect that all Pakistanis are scum and have to be destroyed. Government and police officials are quietly delighted. … [T]hey pull out all the stops in pursuing the vigilantes. Soon thereafter, an acquaintance of one of the vigilantes who has had some doubts about said vigilante and his respect for the law contacts the police with his concerns. The police devote themselves to this new lead and eventually convict the members of the group for murder and other crimes.”
Obviously not the “professional” way to go about executing one’s political enemies, now is it? Ah, but Group B – now these guys are real pros all the way:
“Group B, in contrast, is much more thoughtful than Group A about how exactly it should present itself and its activities to the world. Its members wait for a week after the killings, observing the debate, seeing what is said about them, about the probable motivations for their actions, and their probable identities. Throughout this week, they are putting the final touches to an official statement, a lengthy explanation and justification of their actions. The statement is burnt onto a number of CDs, and copies are sent to every major newspaper in the country, all major TV channels, the local police force, the BBC, the Home Office, and Scotland Yard. The content of the statement is as follows…”
What follows is a detailed list of the appropriate contents for a manifesto such as was written and compiled by Breivik, calling for a “general description of the criminality and dysfunctionality” of Muslims in Europe, “including analysis of their crime and incarceration rates (both disproportionately high), their seditious and terrorist tendencies, and social pathologies….” Also recommended: “A description of the repeated, consistent, and long term attempts of politicians, journalists, and police officers to deny there was a problem.” Also required: “A declaration to the effect that the current unofficial tolerance” of Muslim subversion “will no longer be endured.” In short, this reads like a summary of Breivik’s manifesto [.pdf], entitled “2083: A European Declaration of Independence.”
I won’t dwell on the horrific rhetoric and “strategic” prescriptions of “El Inglés” much longer, except to say this is pretty conclusive evidence of the complicity of “counter-jihadists” in Breivik’s crime, and not just in the indirect sense. The positively spooky conjuring of some group of anti-Muslim “vigilantes” who will come into existence “soon” is no doubt something the Norwegian (and British) authorities will want to investigate: if they haven’t already interviewed the editors of the Gates of Vienna, my guess is they soon will.
I would also note that, in the comments section to “On Vigilantism, Part I,” the very first comment is by the now infamous blogger known as “Fjordman,” who was rumored to be somehow involved, and has since revealed his true identity and gone into hiding. Does he condemn the casual references to beating, maiming, and killing? Not at all. Instead he writes:
“A thought-provoking essay from Inglés, as usual. May I also suggest that we cultivate a form of pan-European ethnic solidarity when it comes to stopping and reversing Third World immigration and removing the Globalist traitor class. Perhaps we can call it “white Zionism.” Since European group solidarity appears to be what the powers-that-be fear the most, perhaps that’s what we should give them. ”An initial step might be boycotting the World Cup in South Africa, in response to the ongoing slaughter of whites there.”
No one on that thread raised any objections, either: there was some discussion of the value of “random bombings” of mosques, and various other targets. The last comment was a simple question:
“Where is Part Two, Inglès??”
There is no “Part Two” posted on Gates of Vienna – unless, of course, it is the news of Breivik’s massacre.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Common Fallacies About
Anti-Interventionism – February 21st, 2012 - The Big One Cometh – February 19th, 2012
- Voting Out the War Party? – February 16th, 2012
- The Pentagon’s Lie Machine – February 14th, 2012
- What Now? – February 12th, 2012





liveload
August 7th, 2011 at 10:02 pm
The whole "manifesto" is a great big jumbled travesty of copy and paste by what often times appears to be a committee of advisers. It's just the usual nonsense and mis-direction which has produced it's intended result: to ignite the fires of fear in new places. If the Norwegians do not respond as America and others have to this type of attack, then the whole operation would have been an utter failure. Seeing America destroy itself with debt, paranoia, and brutal actions which engender long lasting hatred should be a giant warning sign to not go down that path.
Geo1671
August 7th, 2011 at 10:40 pm
Anyone like to discuss unemployed Breivik,how he had a fat bank account and stayed in 5 star hotels and travel alot?
Just asking,are Spencer, Geller, and “Baron Bodissey,” sites J'wish? Reason I'm asking is that Just'in never mentions this OBVIOUS connection to the sinister killings.It reminds me of the sap who boarded a plane to USA (CIA escourted and no I.D. and failed to blowup his underwear :^/
Yonatan
August 7th, 2011 at 11:50 pm
Someone from South America associated with the EDL perhaps?
John_Muhammad
August 8th, 2011 at 12:12 am
At times I begin to think Breivik is nothing more than a point man, a 'sacrificial lamb' so to speak, used to gauge local and international opinion on vigilante terrorist acts directed at Muslims or anyone deemed 'the wrong sort' according to the presently unknown chain of command in the ultra right/left world. It is highly unlikely he carried out his mission unaided; the financial trail alone is enough to raise serious questions about his support system.
The question now is: what to do? Will Western governments and societies as a whole tear into the hate-mongering crowd in their own midst, or will we see denial after denial of involvement resulting in nothing being done? If the Oslo attacks had been carried out by a Muslim, the hue and cry for Muslim blood would be deafening- but so far, sadly, I see a lot of 'investigation' and 'consideration' and all sorts of claptrap that adds up to ZERO being done to harness and squelch the hate speech coming from non-Muslims.
The madness- from all quarters- has GOT to stop. Either we find a way to settle our differences and walk together as friends, or we part ways and walk separately in peace. Anything less drives us farther down the road to self-destruction, and I want no part of that. I want a peaceful world for my son and daughter to grow up in and right now I despair to think that with all the smart people in this world we can't find a way to make that happen.
I am a Muslim, and a man of peace. Whether you follow my religion or not I personally extend my hand and offer a peaceful coexistence. In today's worlds I may on a fool's errand, but the healing and change have to begin somewhere- are YOU brave enough to take up the challenge as well?
omop
August 8th, 2011 at 5:09 am
Whats really as interesting as to " who inspired Anders Breivik" is the initial reporting and condmenation by the media as excerpted below:
The mass media and the rise of rightwing terrorism
The leading English language newspapers, The New York Times (NYT), the Washington Post (WP), the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) and the Financial Times (FT), as well as President Obama, blamed “Islamic extremists”, upon the first police reports of the killings, publishing a series of incendiary (and false) headlines and reports, labeling the event as ‘Norway’s 9-11’, in terms which echoed the ideological motivation and justifications cited by the Norwegian Christian-Zionist political assassin, Anders Behring Breivik himself. The July 23/24 front page of the Financial Times (of London), read “Islamist extremism fears: Worst Europe strike since 2005”. Obama immediately cited the terrorist attack in Norway to further justify his overseas wars against Muslim countries. The FT, NYT, WP and WSJ trotted out their self-styled “experts” who debated over which Arab/Islamic leaders or movements were responsible – despite Norwegian press reports of "the arrest of a Nordic man in police uniform".
Michael Kenny
August 8th, 2011 at 6:25 am
The really interesting part is that GoV is run by a couple in Fairfax, Virginia! I've come accross "false flag" sites like this before, which pretend to present a "European" point of view but are in fact American propagandists, hiding behind internet anonymity. It is normally very difficult to determine who is running the site and where they are based, but, in general, European anti-hate speech laws (introduced to prevent a repetition of the Holocaust!) would prevent such sites from operating from anywhere in Europe. The purpose of these sites is fool Americans into believing that Europe is seething with anti-Muslim hatred and to conceal the fact that, over here, "anti-Muslim" doesn't equal "pro-Israel". Generally, Europeans who dislike Muslims also dislike Jews (for exactly the same reasons!) and Europeans who have nothing against Jews also have nothing against Muslims.
With Breivik, the hatemongers have shot themselves in the foot!
Sam
August 8th, 2011 at 6:46 am
It seems that Justin Raimondo wants it both ways. Was the person who attempted to blow up Times Square with a car bomb in 2009 inspired by Antiwar.com? Afterall, he wanted to blow up Times Square because of our military actions in Iraq and Afganistan and we all know that Justin Raimondo has criticized those wars. So did Mr. Raimondo inspire the Times Square bomber? By the standards he used in this essay, the answer would have to be yes. In reality, we are supposed to hold inviduals responsible for their actions and not assign blame to someone who may have "inspired" them. This essay appears to be Mr. Raimondo taking a cheap shot at his political "enemies" when he fully knows that thay had nothing to do with inspiring the attack in Norway.
liveload
August 8th, 2011 at 6:53 am
Fairfax, Virginia. Things like this seem to get buried or glossed over entirely too often for my tastes. This is why I posted the way that I have. Anyone who knows the way DC works would instantly know it was state generated once the site of origin was determined to be Virginia, or Maryland, etc. The I-95 Corrdidor/Beltway/Defense ContractorLand …whatever youy want to call it … is teeming with every sort of government related activity. From the mundane to the monstrous, it goes on in that region. People just don't seem to understand how big of a feeding frenzy this whole post 9/11 defense and security spending spree has been. There are thousands of defense contractors doing everything from supplying DoD approved undergarments to black ops, many of them concentrated in that corridor. I guess many people still don't think that our government can be that sinister and refuse to beleive what's staring them right in the face.
musings
August 8th, 2011 at 7:21 am
Oslo Accords. Rabin assassinated for sitting down with Palestinians and conceding they had territorial rights. Norway the scene of Nobel Peace Prize. Prizes awarded to those who negotiate. Baruch Goldstein's example. 2010 Purim songs sung by Israeli settlers: praise of Goldstein. Breivik is the equivalent of those black separatists who allied with Nazis in one of Kurt Vonnegut's stories: strange bedfellows. Nobody minds that he is an anti-semite if his rage is directed at liberals and immigrants. He did kill a few immigrants from Moslem lands. The socialists on the island had some ideas of boycotting Israel. So yeah, he did it. But his backers were probably out to get Norway itself, and to force it into the anti-Arab camp. Don't know the psychology there. Remember they capitulated (Quisling) to the Nazi invaders. They might hate making trouble more than they hate hate or love justice. Some are fundie Christians (they aren't Swedes – they are much more Bible-thumping). So there you have it: the perfect storm, perfect mess. And two potential sets of financial backers a la the "GWOT" which got started under Bush II with some definite false flags against Saddam (anthrax, and who knows what).
Drake
August 8th, 2011 at 7:32 am
The hate campaign generated by the neo-cons has become kinda scary. People I know, who have never even met a Moslem, express vehement hatred against that entire culture. Newsmax and Fox News seem to be generating alot of that hateful bigotry.
MvGuy
August 8th, 2011 at 8:29 am
As Geo 1671 aptly observes…… All of Breivik's cut and paste blather is one thing, but his big bucks bomb buying is quite another, or so it would seem…. Certainly, his benefactors would wish to remain anonymous and could have just sent him money hard to trace, like cash by FedEx, or money orders.. Breivik himself may not know who it ACTUALLY was that funded his terror.. I'd be for checking Gellerz accounts…. just joking…..uh…..wel…. kinda.. And also there is the issue of all the blind eyes watching over security, terrorism and sketchy banking there in Norway….. Gee, I wonder if the security services heads will get PROMOTED as they did here after 911…. when the then head of the NSA America's $60+ Billion signet intelligence Michael Hayden….who saw and heard NOTHING… was PROMOTED to the TOP intelligence job by the then president….the Moron Prince… P.S. the acting head of NORAD on 911 was also PROMOTED to head of the joint chiefs of staff…. Follow the Money..!!! Follow the suspicious promotions!! Follow the official statements…!!
Steve
August 8th, 2011 at 8:36 am
Fjordman comments: "May I also suggest that we cultivate a form of pan-European ethnic solidarity when it comes to stopping and reversing Third World immigration and removing the Globalist traitor class."
I'm a White man of European descent and also a white nationalist who sees absolutely no 'benefit' whatsoever to European people, if they allow their Globalist traitor elite classes to maliciously, and against their expressed wishes, reduce them to minorities inside their own native homelands – whereby they will become subjugated to rule by non-white peoples with which they share no history, share no common language, or customs, or traditions, or values and – most importantly – non-whites who have zero history of creating or maintaining the kind of system of government that the 100 percent White European Founding Fathers created here in America. A form of government that is unique to the White Western world; one which has a strong emphasis on individual liberty, freedom from tyranny, and one which emphasizes self-determination and self-reliance – free from government intrusion or meddling. Just look at how disastrous it has been to allow these Utopian minded neo-con war criminals of ours to try to impose 'Democracy' and our way of life upon nations in the Middle East? The people in those nations deserve the right to form whatever kinds of governments and societies that best suit THEIR tastes, needs and preferences, and not ours.
Free from any and all interference and meddling by the Globalist traitors who Fjordman correctly calls out in his rant.
So, might I ask what is wrong with the statement by Fjordman posted above? Are White Europeans the only group of people on this planet who are expected, who are DEMANDED to surrender their native homelands to invading hordes from the Third World – and we are not supposed to be allowed to oppose it, to speak out against it, to defend our legitimate rights as a distinct ethnic and racial group to fight this Globalist elite traitor effort to genocide us and destroy our ability to ensure self-determination?
Has anyone bothered to read the 1947/1948 Convention on the Crime and Punishment of Genocide lately, and by the way, the copy of it that I own does not cite an exception that applies only to White Europeans and the European nations that they call their historic native homelands. Did I get a misprinted copy, and does the original version have a footnote that none of the contents of that official definition of what constitutes 'genocide' are to be applied if the victims are White European people?
RickR30
August 8th, 2011 at 10:06 am
"White Zionism," huh? Cute. Let's unite these white zionists with the regular (non-white?) zionists and let them blow up the planet while they pursue their bizarre agenda. I wonder if we get to see the one world government police state take action against these maniacs. Or are state persecutions, illegal wiretappings, phony criminal charges just reserved for the innocent non-violent opponents of the establishment.
RickR30
August 8th, 2011 at 10:07 am
Well, the GoV site has a "We support israel" banner on there.
RickR30
August 8th, 2011 at 10:22 am
Well put.
The appeal of Fjordman and the like is that their analyses of the current situation in Europe and related statements of fact are true and make sense. But things go awry from there on, when they start hailing israel as some type of model to follow, and of course, with their "recommendations" on how to act in the light of the current situation.
It would be moronic to argue that immigration/"diversity" from developing countries to developed countries has been a fantastic thing. It's been a disaster. Only a blind and brute leftists (cultural marxist?) would argue otherwise.
yes
August 8th, 2011 at 11:07 am
Total ZION media BS! Breivik did not shoot a single person.
Zoroaster
August 8th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
"El Inglés" means "the Englishman" in Spanish. So he may be er…an Englishman who moves in Spanish-speaking circles or visits Spain (or any other Spanish-speaking country) and is known by that nickname. Then again it may be an Israeli agent trying to disguise his/her identity! Cheerio!
andy
August 8th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
All I know is when you make certain topics TABOO and off -limits for discussion, stuff will happen.
rodney
August 8th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
as i said before-if there is an evil lurking then look for the britsh or english hands nearby-the examples prove that this el iglis is an aenglish man and true to form he is an evil.
the evidence for WMD in Iraq was forged with the help of our British friends and a half decent graphic designer.-where ever is evil there is English hands there.
BOYCOTT THE TERRORIST CRIMINAL POLICE TERRORIST STATE UK: BOYCOTT THE LONDON OLYMPICS 2012 !
rodney
August 8th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
http://english.pravda.ru/world/europe/07-08-2011/…
London riots: Divine justice?
07.08.2011
“Now let us imagine that for months – nay, years…I repeat, years, foreign powers had been arming and aiding not 300, but rather, 30,000 (thirty thousand) Islamist fanatics, who, equipped with heavy machine-guns, tanks, self-propelled artillery and anti-aircraft munitions, ran amok in London, Manchester, Liverpool and Bristol. If the police shot dead one man in Tottenham, if the police shot dead the Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, because he, er… "looked Asian" back in 2007, what would they do with 30,000 marauding thugs? Why, according to the British Government, evidently nothing, they would just stand back because "the people were deciding".
San Fernando Curt
August 8th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
I guess we can assume the GofV anti-jihad crowd is waiting a few weeks after the killings, observing the debate, seeing what is said about them, about the probable motivations for their actions, and their probable identities. Then I suppose they'll burn into CDs their mission statement about why it's necessary to murder children to raise our consciousness about how horrible Muslims are. These armchair vigilantes know all about horror; their imaginations define the word.
musings
August 8th, 2011 at 5:56 pm
Wow, I really understand the box you're in: like both Israelis and Southerners fearing unalloyed democracy due to demographics which they feel are not on their side. Southerners dealt with the "race problem" by curfews of freedmen and after the Civil War with segregation. We know how Israelis deal. So you want Europe to do the same. Ever see a losing proposition forming?
What's wrong with a form of government in which each person is equal before the law? And the law is unbiased in its effect? What about not cursing the darkness of the skin of your distant cousins and descending into your inner darkness of rage? What about constantly speaking of human rights and making sure they are generally accepted as the only way to go. Each child is tabula rasa. People born in Europe become Europeans. There is no "blood" right. At least that is the way America has dealt with wave after wave of immigrant, including funny peasants from the heartland in funny clothes.
Avi Gillon
August 8th, 2011 at 7:51 pm
Yeah. The racism of white trash like you should really be indulged and nurtured. I don't see anything wrong with that. Yup.
Avi Gillon
August 8th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
It's interesting that white supremacists made similar arguments in the Jim Crow south as you and your friends have done in this thread.
Avi Gillon
August 8th, 2011 at 8:02 pm
It's interesting that white supremacists made similar arguments in the Jim Crow south as you and your girlfriend Rick here have done.
But, it's good to have such comments in response to articles like this one. Your comments illustrate to the casual reader that the supremacist fanatics that bomb abortion clinics, blow up buildings and mow down school children are part of the social fabric of white, Christian, and American society.
Do continue to post your comments here instead of limiting them to Stormfront or the like so that the world will see the true face of Breivik and his supporters.
Avi Gillon
August 8th, 2011 at 8:10 pm
"So, might I ask what is wrong with the statement by Fjordman posted above? Are White Europeans the only group of people on this planet who are expected, who are DEMANDED to surrender their native homelands to invading hordes from the Third World – and we are not supposed to be allowed to oppose it, to speak out against it, to defend our legitimate rights as a distinct ethnic and racial group to fight this Globalist elite traitor effort to genocide us and destroy our ability to ensure self-determination? "
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If you're that concerned, it shouldn't be much of an effort for you to get away from those "hordes".
All you would have to do is start your pick up truck, hitch it to your trailer and relocate to a different trailer park. And you can self-determine all you want wherever that trailer park happens to be.
andy
August 8th, 2011 at 8:45 pm
Your reply says more about you sir, then anything I ever could.
andy
August 8th, 2011 at 8:47 pm
As soon as you are called a "racist", you have won the argument.
Rusty
August 8th, 2011 at 11:44 pm
Justin, you are quick to point out the flaws of US foreign policy as being a major culprit in the 'blow back' we've received in recent years. Why is it so hard to not see the link between Breivik and the misguided policies of Norwegian elite? Rather than trying to assign blame to minor players on the other side of the Atlantic, shouldn't the Norwegian elite reexamine their efforts to modify an almost perfectly functioning nation? As they say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Maybe in their haste to fix something that doesn't need fixing, is causing the natives to become restless.
Also you wrote, "Well, no – because no libertarian with any standing has ever advocated violence against the State." Didn't Jefferson advocate occasional violence against the state?
Rusty
August 9th, 2011 at 12:07 am
How would the citizens of a muslim nation react to large scale immigration of non muslims into their societies? I think the people of Western Europe and North America have been pretty tolerant of such radical changes effected upon them from above without their consent. Putting such diverse communities into close proximity with one another is not going to turn out well in the long term. If the Czechs and Slovaks can't stay married, I doubt Europeans and non-Western immigrants have much of a bright future together.
You write that zero is being done to harness and squelch the hate speech coming from non muslims. Well, prior to large scale muslim and other non-Western immigration, we did not have concepts such as hate speech. The very fact you bring it up is a chilling reminder of the changes taking place to what was once a bastion of free speech.
You are probably correct that had the culprit in Norway been a muslim, the calls for immigration reform and repatriation would increase. However, I doubt those calls would have had much effect. We did not see any drastic changes to immigration following Madrid and London.
sunyata
August 9th, 2011 at 12:13 am
I am hoping that the insistence by Norwegian police that Breivik acted alone is a calculated deception, so they can investigate his co-conspirators without sending them too far into hiding.
jim bob
August 9th, 2011 at 2:37 am
terrorism in every form is to be denounced and should never be used as a tactic. What happened in Oslo is a horrific tragedy and my thoughts and prayers go to anyone that has lost anyone in a terrorist attack. With all of that said, I also find it perplexing that these sorts of things have been occurring within the muslim community for years and years and yet most people either brush aside or refuse to discuss the side of the argument which is that these tactics were copied and repeated from what we have learned from the muslims that consider this as 'business as usual'. Oh and not to mention the fact that most muslim extremists think that Israel should be wiped off the face of the planet. Again, I do not agree/support terrorist activity on either side however this article is a bit biased to the muslim community and acts as if they do not use these tactics for themselves. This is supposed to be 'fact check'? Do a fact check for the other side of this discussion.
Avi Gillon
August 9th, 2011 at 3:08 am
It's "than", not "then".
Don't they teach English at KKK gatherings?
Avi Gillon
August 9th, 2011 at 3:10 am
That's marvelous logic. I'm not surprised, though, given the source.
Avi Gillon
August 9th, 2011 at 3:17 am
The above is a good illustration of the simple fact that ignorance knows no ethnicity, race, skin color or religion.
jim bob here seems to think that Moslems wrote the Book of Deuteronomy and the Book of Joshua.
If he had a basic level of education, at least a four-year college education, he would have known that terrorism and violent attacks, including the burning, maiming and beheading of innocent women and children predates Islam.
But, part and parcel of racism and bigotry is an (un)healthy dose of ignorance and, in some cases, illiteracy.
Avi Gillon
August 9th, 2011 at 3:32 am
It's supremacists like RickR30 that make it more and more difficult to speak up against the oppression perpetuated by the United States against the Palestinian people.
In this thread alone, he and his Klan have demonstrated that Palestinians and those who stand in solidarity with Palestinians have to work harder to weed out the anti-Semitic and Islamophobic racist bigots — the xenophobes — from those who are truly decent human beings, concerned with human rights and dignity.
The likes of RickR30, Rusty, andy and steve are quick to call Israel a monster, but they are also quick to call Moselms "hordes from third world countries".
That Islamophobes are often anti-Semites as well, should not come as a surprise, but it calls for vigilance and awareness on the part of human rights advocates.
Anon
August 9th, 2011 at 8:37 am
Keep up the good work commissar. Your diligence at rooting out the racists and bigots on this blog is inspiring.
Raashid
August 9th, 2011 at 9:49 am
"How would the citizens of a muslim nation react to large scale immigration of non muslims into their societies?"
Many of the Gulf States do in fact, have large numbers of non-Muslims residing in their countries. Bahrain and the UAE have even seen their traditional religious values eroded by that influx, such that their laws have even been changed to accomodate the newcomers; much more so then European nations have had by the reverse influx.
Rusty
August 9th, 2011 at 11:56 am
According to the CIA World Factbook, the UAE is still 96% muslim. Despite this about 80% of the people are non-citizens. Non-citizens comprise 80%? So this seems to show that the UAE doesn't even treat its muslim immigrants with open arms.
As for tiny Bahrain, at most Christians make up about 120K people there . That's not exactly the reverse influx of what is happening in Europe where entire cultures are being transplanted from the third world right into the heart of Europe.
BTW, I do not hold a grudge against any muslim nation, or Japan and South Korea for that matter, that does not want a massive wave of foreigners to settle in their midst. It is only natural for them to want to maintain their cultural identity.
Keep in mind that most people in most nations have no problems with cultural exchanges such as tourists, students, and trade officials. In most areas a singular stranger is treated with courtesy and curiosity. Wherever I have traveled abroad that has been my experience. I am sure I would have been treated differently if I'd had informed my hosts of my intention to resettle my entire little, American town in their midst.
RickR30
August 9th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
What on earth are you talking about?
anon
August 9th, 2011 at 4:14 pm
It's really not the easy. Places like Maine and MInnesota, which might function as a destination for someone who wants to get away from the "hordes" are now being settled by Somalis and others.
And as far as self determination is concerned, the trend is moving towards more centralized government . Self determination is rapidly becoming a relic in the USA.
sunyata
August 9th, 2011 at 9:32 pm
I love this new breed of fool complaining whenever they are called 'racist', as if the term were just a crude way of winning an argument or maintaining a Soviet-inspired 'political correctness'. 'Race' is a pseudo-scientific construct and those who generalize about ethnic or religious/cultural groupings as monolithic entities to be praised or feared (or otherwise segregated) according to their presumed characteristics are either misinformed or politically blinkered. It doesn't matter whether you are from the Middle East or Europe or wherever, if you are in favor of ethnic/religious/cultural homogeneity, you can justifiably be called a racist. Stop complaining about it!
Hrebeljanovic
August 9th, 2011 at 11:01 pm
There we go, I was wondering when the other dogs will show up.
Raashid
August 10th, 2011 at 12:51 am
I don't see what your point is, in throwing these percentages and numbers. You asked "How would the citizens of a muslim nation react to large scale immigration of non muslims into their societies?" I merely gave two examples of where the citizens of those Muslim countries have been tolerant of the values of these non-Muslims, even implementing laws to accomodate them, against their indigenous values. That's not to suggest they are more tolerant then Western European nations have been.
Raashid
August 10th, 2011 at 12:56 am
I'm not sure calling for the silencing of the anti-Muslim activists is the way to go. These people already tap into a sense of grievance that whites/Christians/Westerners are being forced to kowtow to the invading Asiatic/black/brown hordes by their treacherous liberal "elites" and lead exactly to the mindset of Breivik in the first place. It may be better to let them express their views but highlight them for what they are, peddlars of hate and aggression, as opposed to the protectors and defenders that they claim to be. If the majority of people were still to be taken in by their hate, then that society wouldn't be one worth living in anyway. I do believe the Quran mentions the early Muslims that decided to remain in Mecca when their rulers were determined to eradicate them, Allah asks them "Was the world not big enough for you to find somewhere else to reside?"
Raashid
August 10th, 2011 at 1:04 am
One issue I would have with Justins terminology is the use of "counter-jihadist" to describe the Spencer-Gellar-Pipes school of analysis. These people are not anti-jihadists, but are anti-Muslim, period. As Justin pointed out in his excellent article about the opposition to the so-called "ground Zero Mosque", these people are opposed to all Muslims, anywhere in the world, irrespective of stripe. Their claims to be counter-jihadists is simply to give a veneer of nobility to their hate, passing themselves off as "defenders", though the amount of coverage they give to Muslims personal religious beliefs and practices gives lie to this.
rusty
August 10th, 2011 at 8:09 am
Numbers are important because the question asked how would a muslim country respond to 'Large Scale Immigration', not how they would respond to a small influx. The examples you gave do not demonstrate that a muslim nation would respond favorably to such an event. In fact I was shocked to learn that only 20% of the people of the UAE are even citizens. This suggests 80% don't have voting rights and other privileges that come with citizenship. Given the UAE is 96% muslim, this also suggests they don't even welcome muslim newcomers with open arms.
rusty
August 10th, 2011 at 8:17 am
If the majority of people were still to be taken in by their hate, then that society wouldn't be one worth living in anyway.
Does this mean the majority of people living in muslim and other third world lands are filled with hate? Apparently those societies aren't worth living in since so many seem to wish to flee.
"Was the world not big enough for you to find somewhere else to reside?"
Maybe I don't get the use of this quote, but is it to suggest that we Europeans find other places to live if we are not thrilled with the transformations occurring in our present locales?
Rusty
August 10th, 2011 at 10:57 am
if you are in favor of ethnic/religious/cultural homogeneity, you can justifiably be called a racist
By your definition a large part of the world is racist. Japan and South Korea would definitely be at the top of that list.
sunyata
August 11th, 2011 at 5:56 pm
A large part of the world is indeed racist. Cultural and racial chauvinism, based on pseudo-scientific notions of 'national identity' (eg. "Japaneseness") are certainly reflected in immigration policies of the two countries you cite. This is well-known to academics. I would stop short of saying eg. 'the Japanese are racists', because – and this doesn't need to be said – not everyone in/from Japan is implicated in this racism, and besides that I have already said that 'Japanese identity' as a concept is inherently suspect. Attitudes and policies and individuals can be racist, but not countries as such.
Raashid
August 12th, 2011 at 4:23 am
No, the quote has nothing to do with Europeans, it is referring to Muslims finding somewhere else to live if they find they are not welcome somewhere.
As for Muslims fleeing their own lands, it has little to do with hate, and more to do with poverty, the reasons of which are numerous.