The idea that there is a nation called “Libya” is the central problem with our understanding of what is going on in that fake “country,” the flaw in our projections of what will or ought to happen.
The country known today as Libya has only existed since the end of World War II, and was the product of a shotgun marriage of the three “provinces”: Tripolitania, in the West, Cyrenaica, in the East, and Fezzan in the South. “Libya” was created, first, by the Italians in 1933, who sought to incorporate the three distinct areas into a unified colony, under a single Fascist proconsul. After the defeat of the Axis powers, the British took control and installed an “emir” in Cyrenaica. Writing in the New York Daily News recently, Diedreick Vandewalle, a professor of government at Dartmouth, gives us some historical perspective:
“History has not been kind to this nation. Its three provinces — Cyrenaica, Tripolitania and Fazzan — were united for strategic purposes by the Great Powers after World War II. Cyrenaica in the east, and Tripolitania in the west, the two most important provinces, shared no common history and were suspicious of each other.
“The monarch, King Idris al-Sanusi, the heir to a Sufi Islamic movement that had its headquarters in Cyrenaica, kept complaining to the U.S. ambassador that he wanted to rule only as Amir of Cyrenaica, not as King of Libya.”
The kindness of history is found lacking, by Vandewalle, because, as he complains later on in his piece,
“In many ways, Libya remains the tribal society it was in 1951, when the country became independent. As a political concept, Libya for many of its citizens remains limited to tribe, family or province: The notion of a unified system of political checks and balances remains terra incognita.
“The danger for future governments is that they could easily continue this hands-off government, remaining little more than a conduit for the country’s vast natural resources. The real challenge for Libya will not only be reconstruction — but the creation, for the first time since 1951, of a true state with a shared national identity.”
Has Gadhafi’s long reign of terror really been an episode of “hands-off government”? Although, in theory, Gadhafi has several times proclaimed the abolition of the Libyan government, with power supposedly devolving to the local “revolutionary committees,” in reality – as we can see with our own eyes – anyone who who challenges the Gadhafi dictatorship is flirting with their own mortality.
Gadhafi and the mid-level officers who led the coup against King Idris in 1967 were modernizers who emulated the Western model of a super-centralized unitary state. That Gadhafi had to mask this centralism under the rubric of his Jamahiriya variant of socialism – which claims that Libya is a direct democracy, where power is vested in local “Basic People’s Congresses” – merely underscores the difficulty of imposing any sort of central government in a society that naturally resists it.
This is the “factual” basis of the daffy dictator’s seemingly crazy argument that he can’t step down from office, since he doesn’t hold any in the (officially nonexistent) Libyan state.
In order to maintain his rule, Gadhafi had to set up a system that limned the already existing state of affairs, which Professor Vandewalle bemoans as “the tribal society it was in 1951.” The ideological fiction of Jamahiriya, however, has been abruptly unmasked by the dictator’s brutal response to the Benghazi-based rebellion. I’m surprised he hasn’t already styled himself as the Libyan equivalent of Abraham Lincoln, the heroic leader who will stop at nothing to save the sacred unitary state.
Western intellectuals and politicians bring their cultural bias in favor of cosmopolitanism to bear on a region that has always lived in another way altogether: Vandewalle enthuses over the idea that Libya may some day see the emergence of “a true state” and enter a state of grace by achieving “a shared national identity” – but why should Libyans want any such thing?
After all, their experience with the unitary state – from the idiocies of the Green Book, to the decrees of colonial administrators – has been entirely negative. The only periods of relative peace, prosperity, and stability have been when the peoples of the region are allowed to revert to local “tribal” allegiances.
A fine network of social and religious associations and loyalties – inextricably linked to the two pillars of society in the region, which are family and faith – has always existed beneath the thin veneer of Gadhafi’s state apparatus. As the façade falls away, the underlying structures stand revealed.
The Benghazi rebellion is essentially a secessionist movement, which seeks to break Cyrenaica away from what used to be the entirely separate and distinct state of Tripolitania – now the seat of the central government and Gadhafi’s chief stronghold. Cyrenaica has a long history as an independent and quasi-independent entity, which goes back to the time of the ancient Greeks, and continued into modern times. That history is now reasserting itself. Cyrenaica was the center of resistance to the Italians. It is also the center of the Sanussi sect’s influence – a version of Islam, founded in 1837. The Sanussi, based in the Bedouin tribes of the East, have always been the most troublesome for would-be colonizers and empire-builders: they resisted the rule of the Italians just as they fought the Ottomans – and are now fighting Gadhafi.
King Idris I, who took the throne after World War II, descended from the original Sanussi emir – and, it turns out, he was right in his reluctance to extend his rule to Tripoli. If the Western powers, hiding behind the UN, had taken the King’s advice and allowed Cyrenaica to go its own way, the present tragedy might have been averted. As it is, the rebellion against Gadhafi has turned into a stalemate, with the Eastern part effectively liberated from the eccentric despot’s control.
This is no doubt unacceptable to the Western powers, which want a single state to deal with and exploit, and it is doubly unacceptable to the Arab League, because it opens up a whole new can of worms, throwing into question the borders of states created in the wake of the Ottoman collapse. If Cyrenaica can secede from Tripoli, then why can’t the Kurds secede from Iraq – and the Shi’ites of the Saudi Kingdom’s Eastern province rid themselves of their Sunni overlords?
In any case, the fiction of “Libya” is falling by the wayside. What will succeed it remains an open question. However, Western intervention, if and when it occurs, cannot bring stability to a “nation” that never really existed in the first place.
The great Arab Awakening now sweeping North Africa and the Middle East is not only bringing down the old order of Western-supported dynasties, and tinpot dictators of Gadhafi’s ilk – it is also erasing arbitrary borders drawn by Western colonizers and Ottoman caliphs, and redrawing them to reflect underlying realities more accurately. Any attempt by the West to intervene, and favor one outcome over another, is bound to draw the ire of indigenous peoples – and redirect their anger away from local despots, and towards us.
That is why it’s in our interests to stand aside and let the upsurge play out, without aiding the rebellion in Cyrenaica or standing in its way. Let the recent arrest and expulsion of a British “diplomatic” delegation, which landed in the Eastern region in the dead of night, serve as a lesson and a warning to the West. The sign clearly says: “No Trespassing.” We defy it at our peril.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Edward Snowden vs. the Sovietization of America – June 18th, 2013
- A Note to My Readers – June 16th, 2013
- Datagate and the Death of American Liberalism – June 13th, 2013
- Smear Brigade Goes After Snowden – June 11th, 2013
- Edward Snowden, American Hero – June 9th, 2013





skulz fontaine
March 13th, 2011 at 9:17 pm
"However, Western intervention, if and when it occurs, cannot bring stability to a “nation” that never really existed in the first place."
There is no "if", there is only "when." That 'Western intervention' is amassing just to the north of Libya in the Mediterranean and by "dawn's early light" well, it shall be game on.
jasonditz
March 13th, 2011 at 10:08 pm
You could take it even a step further and argue that these really make more sense as independent city states along the coast, maybe with a loose Hansa-style trade union to ensure the flow of goods around the area. Most of the loyalty in Libya is locally derived anyhow, which is why so many of Gadhafi's people defected when he started ordering protesters killed in the eastern cities.
Libya's big on a map but a lot of that is no-man's land. The southern border was mostly a map convention rather than an actual border until the modern era.
yah
March 13th, 2011 at 10:09 pm
very interesting article. i didnt know about the internal divisions in the country, and probably most Americans dont either.
JohnDowser
March 13th, 2011 at 11:58 pm
The article delivers a good overview of the situation. The only question mark one could put is behind the idea of potential new borders "reflecting underlying realities more accurately". This assumes underlying realities which would be somehow less divided and muddled than the current situation. There's perhaps the *memory* of some past reality but is there really a conceivable way back to that? In this case the reality itself is in the air, like a mini bizarro world. It's then perhaps up to the people themselves to look for a different way forward. The Western interventionists can only deliver "same old", that's a certainty one can count on!
Bodkin
March 14th, 2011 at 12:19 am
"The sign clearly says: No Trespassing."
This is true to the extent that SOME rebels reject Western intervention, but it's false to the extent that OTHER rebels are, in fact, BEGGING for Western intervention.
CNN spoke on the line to Libyans desperately begging for the cavalry to be sent in. BBC footage recently showed a weary Libyan rebel crying "Where is everybody?" in an area where rebels were hit hard by Gaddhafi.
The point is, when the rebels think they can win on their own, they don't want Western help, as Raimondo says. But when they're losing badly, they start begging for assistance. So there are, in fact, two signs: "No Trespassing" and "Trespassers Wanted".
There are indeed great perils to intervening, but perhaps Raimondo is revealing only a PARTIAL truth about the rebels because he's trying to advance his own anti-interventionist position. The FULL truth is more complex and thus weakens his stance.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 14th, 2011 at 1:09 am
Justin just look at a map. Nature never wanted to bore us with drawing straight lines. All the borders in Africa and in the ME are artificial, inherited from colonial powers.
Borders, language, religion don't define a nation. "Vouloir vivre ensemble" defines a nation.
rogerpaul
March 14th, 2011 at 3:25 am
rot justin…u will bend over backwards to go against any intervention,
There are cases where the international community should have intervened, like in Rwanda, and where they should not , like the wars in Iraq, Afghanisatan and Pakistan.
The problem with US foreign policy has been that they fail to intervene when an ounce of intervention can get a tonne of goodwill, as in Rwanda, or in Libya now, and blunder in where they are not welcome. To stand aside now, when the imposition of a no fly zone will merely cost, at the most a few planes, is to lay the ground for a larger conflict and endless turmoil in the future.
If the democracies had forcefully intervened when Hitler marched into the Rhineland, the horrors of WW2 could have been avoided.
Montaigne
March 14th, 2011 at 4:27 am
One thing is for certain: It does not give peace and security to at state when arming it heavily. It only changes the people into more primitive and inept persons, which of course the arms sellar sees as proof of the great value of his deeds.
Wootie Berster
March 14th, 2011 at 5:00 am
'Vouloir vivre ensemble defines a nation' if you're French. Actually, most of us savages over here are not. The phrase is just gibberish to most and who has time to run to some translation bot to find out what it is? Not me, monsieur. Bonsoir.
Wootie Berster
March 14th, 2011 at 5:06 am
No. Foreign meddling in the region is what caused that social disaster. Had the French (and I suppose the Belgians and the English) stayed the hell out of there instead of trying to project their neoimperialist agenda (yes, all states have one, admitted or not) the mutual hatreds of the Hutus and the Tutsis would have stayed at the nasty but low level that has existed for.. forever?? Rwanda is yet another cobbled-together fictional entity created by powerful states in Europe for their own convenience. Should have been bloody left alone in the first place!
geo1671
March 14th, 2011 at 5:08 am
Roger–if you only knew that Hitler was used like saddam as USA stooge.Up until 1940,Germany was an Alley of USA. Same time funding France/UK to declare/bomb germany. With USA approval, Germany rounded up over 600,000PolishJews and forced to settle in Palestine." USA to INTERVEN, LikeRwanda, and where they should not , like the wars in Iraq, Afghanisatan and Pakistan"???? My dear good fellow, USA controls EU/NATO/M.E–that was the real motive of USA,which planned the WWII capper. Only one catch-Russia took some of europe.I suggest you go back and read some–about Clinton's No-Fly zone over Iraq and see Documentray "" Highway of Death ( Hidden War of Desert Storm) .Just likeSaddam,they the sole powers to be, silencedHitler–not to talk
Bodkin
March 14th, 2011 at 5:09 am
Your post encapsulates the great spirit of restless inquisitiveness, the unquenchable thirst for knowledge, that characterizes so many of your esteemed colleagues here, particularly the ones who keep on insisting they're "smart", despite all the evidence to the contrary…
jd, you listening?
bogi666
March 14th, 2011 at 5:10 am
"nation that never really existed in the 1st place", south Vietnam was such a creation. It only existed in the minds of USG warmongers so they could conduct a war against Vietnam. The USG likeS to create and declare area's as countries that only exist in the mind of some American. How's that working for US?
Wootie Berster
March 14th, 2011 at 5:13 am
Indeed. But as you well know (I suppose you do), modern states are war machines. War materiel is the number one product of not only America but many other "advanced" (ha ha!) states and there is no production without markets. Rather the paradox of modern "capitalism", isn't it. Or rather.. the rentierist neofeudalism that currently calls itself capitalism. We ought to give up the misdirected fiction that we are living in a capitalist state and admit that we ourselves have been reduced to "more primitive and inept persons" who cannot even use words correctly any more. Capitalism is the production of goods.. not the juggling of finances for the gross greed of a few billionaire psychopaths. That's no more than banditry. Call it what it is.
Jan Burton
March 14th, 2011 at 5:48 am
This is the ultimate no-win situation for the West.
If we don't interevene and Ghadafi crushes the revolt then Libya will forever be mentioned alongside Rwanda as an example of when we neglected our "responsibility" to save the weak and instead stood by and watched a massacre.
If we do intervene then the Arab world and the international Left will decry another example of the imperialist baby-killing Westerners out to oppress Muslims and steal oil on behalf of the Zionists.
Sad to say, but Ghadafi will probably shell Benghazi into rubble and then drag off the survivors for torture and execution in his jails.
If anyone should save the locals it should be their Arab neighbours. And if they can't be bothered (which they can't) then Ghadafi has a green light to clean house.
Dr.Khan
March 14th, 2011 at 5:50 am
J.R,Do you really believe it was worth writing an article like this one.Do you really think it is only Libyia that never existed.as someone already said above,look at the map and you will see majority of the resent demarketed countries never existed before and are merely the creation of the Divide and Rule principle so successfully executed by the Brits till pre and post ww2 times.and even till this day it is applied where ever they get a chance but now they do it under the umbrella of UN.Do not expect from you writing such low grade article Justin.
Dr.Khan
March 14th, 2011 at 5:54 am
What is exactly that Americans know about?where did the USA come from.Was it there since the beginning or it just took few million kills of natives to come into present form.
MichaelKenny
March 14th, 2011 at 6:15 am
History: Italy attacked the three isolated provinces of the Turkish Empire in October 1911. By September 1912, they had beaten the Turks. That war became the first "prequel" to WWI. However, there followed in "Libya", a guerilla war with the local population which lasted until … 1931! That's why it was only in 1933 that the Italians really got around to organising the territory. Woe betide anyone who is tomfool enough to get involved in a war in Libya!
John V. Walsh
March 14th, 2011 at 6:20 am
Contrary to Dr.Khan I think that Justin's article is superb. In the tons of coverage of Libya in the US, I have not heard this simple piece of history discussed even once. I sit across the breakfast table here from someone who reads the NYT religiously and she knew none of this history either. NPR and BBC did not help either.
Yes Dr. Khan is right that this is just one more example of the colonial West screwing around with borders of the governed territories and creating polities wherever and however it wished – either to divide and conquer or to facilitate its indirect rule through some potentate or other. But the population of the US is starved for such information. And here is a lone journalist putting out the basic, illuminating information that all the journalistic "giants" in the US like the NYT do not bring to us.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 14th, 2011 at 6:54 am
I happen to be French, yes, not by birth but by fate. And why does it make you so "gibberish"? It's still full daylight here in Paris to wish you bonsoir. Contrary to your imagination, we don't suffer of hubris.
RickR30
March 14th, 2011 at 8:33 am
Well if it doesn't exist then we better create it soon so we can intervene. Send wolfoshlitz, zoellick, to concoct a really real Libya and put one of the little demonic Gaddafis in charge. Then send MadMcChrystal, Davy Petraeus, and Odiouso over there with smart bombs to blow up Libya's children and wedding parties.
Advocate4LIberty
March 14th, 2011 at 9:04 am
Basically, "wanting to live together". Are you really that lazy? Certainly you're not too busy if you have time to troll the antiwar.com site posting inane comments.
conumishu
March 14th, 2011 at 9:28 am
So you want Lybia split? What's the difference with the imperialist position then? "Staying out" is fine, no doubt, even more if the game unfolds "naturally" toward a very favorable outcome. For the west.
Much easier to control the oil and natural gas with 2 (or more) future dominions, wouldn't you say?
If we extend the logic then the Arab world should splinter. Might be a libertarian dream to see city-states or whatever flourish allover, but I only suspect juicy profits for the western corporations so many years cut off from the lybian oil-pie.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all the way for each one minding his own business, I just find the events in Lybia very fishy, I saw no peaceful "revolution", no widespread popular support for the "protesters turned insurgents turned rebels (maybe now secesionists)", instead I've witnessed another nauseating media campaign, filled with old lies and cliches, very targeted – see the "eastern provinces" meme and "air strikes".
Now that the lybian soldiers push the… whoever… very fast, they are no longer mercenaries (big surprise!). Now that Brega was captured we hear the airport there is well suited for resupply – makes sense to interdict flies, but you can't sell air resupply as atrocity. It's all about meddling. International rules don't allow taking secesionists part, but allow taking measures to restore order against armed civilians, That's that and the case for "darfurisation" or" srebenicafication" of the events there is flimsy at best.
rogerpaul
March 14th, 2011 at 9:39 am
Of course colonialism created the divisions. But when people are being chopped to death it is not the time to look at past history. In Rwanda, if permission was given to UN forces to open fire first, rather than to fire only if fired upon, millions would have been saved,. You can thank Kofi Annan and Bill Clinton for the verbal gymnastics.
In both Rwanda and Libya, the people were and are yearning for intervention.
The problem is that the US always gets the wrong end of the stick.
ilberranter
March 14th, 2011 at 9:40 am
Minor correction, for historical accuracy's sake: Qaddafi came to power in September of 1969, not 1967. Otherwise, a spot-on article.
rogerpaul
March 14th, 2011 at 9:43 am
This is again past history. Of course the US is not innocent. It has perpetuated horrible crimes and continues to do so. THe Highway of Death, and the drone attacks in Pakistan are clear evidence of that.
Yet, historians agree if Hitler had been stopped in the Rhineland, WW2 would not have happened. THERE ARE INSTANCES WHEN INTERVENTION IS BEST and INSTANCES WHEN THE INVADER IS NOT WELCOME>
Yet, for once, here is a chance to win some goodwill in the Arab world, and Obama, who has no cajones, is sitting tight. Never has been a man been able to talk so much without saying nothing.
smithy100
March 14th, 2011 at 10:01 am
israel didnt exist prior to 1948 and israel , to this very day, does not have defined borders. Is israel a fake country too?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 14th, 2011 at 10:06 am
I never imagined that I’d get an inane overtly self-declared Zionist moron and an inane American supposedly libertarian moron to agree. Is there a Nobel for trolling? I think I deserve it.
At least the k-ke deserves respect.
(Edited for ironic use of archaic anti-semitic slur.)
DavidDavidson
March 14th, 2011 at 10:33 am
yes
Jan Burton
March 14th, 2011 at 10:57 am
A no-fly zone wouldn't amount to much. Most of Ghadaffi's military might comes from artillery and tanks, not air-strikes.
Get rid off all those jets and choppers and he'll still crush the rebellion.
Dr.Khan
March 14th, 2011 at 11:03 am
The oonly very real FAKE country
Bodkin
March 14th, 2011 at 11:04 am
I think this just might be my favorite post in the history of antiwar.com!
How often does one get called the k-word in the context of a compliment?
I'm offended, flattered, and affirmed in my views all at the same time, and there's even a captivatingly curious aside from the moderator thrown in as a bonus. Great stuff!
Advocate4LIberty
March 14th, 2011 at 11:11 am
And if Woodrow Wilson would have kept his nose in his own business and the U.S. out of WWI, Hitler would have never gained power, and WWII would have never occurred.
The state, whether U.S., UK, Russia, China Rwanda, Libya, Turkey, Israel, etc. ad nauseum, is the problem – NEVER the solution.
Humanity will never reach its full potential – may not even survive as a species – until we can get rid of the state in all its poisonous forms and the mindset that makes them possible.
johnnyreb
March 14th, 2011 at 11:15 am
yer f**kin a it's a fake! and an albatross around the neck of the us.
Bodkin
March 14th, 2011 at 11:21 am
Seriously, Vojkan, did you not catch the irony when you wrote "the k— deserves respect"? It was so blatant that even the moderator had to chime in.
In truth, I'm not offended and I hope nobody reports your comment. It's quite hilarious.
John_Muhammad
March 14th, 2011 at 11:28 am
If Britain had allied with Germany against the Communist threat of the Soviet Union (as Hitler desperately wanted), much of present history would have been avoided as well. It might be said as well if the US had stayed out of WW1 the events of WW2 might never have come to pass- as it stood, if Germany won, the US bankers would have never been repaid the war loans they made to Britain and France… Economics 101.
The problem now is that of national interest- is it more benefit to the US to intervene in the Libyan situation and further inflame anti-US sentiment in many parts of the Arab world, or wait until the dust has settled and cozy up to whoever is left standing?
I say the latter. We can't afford another splendid little adventure, nor can what's left of US prestige stand more assaults that we bring upon ourselves. Little good it will do to intervene only to find we've created another Iraq/Afghanistan quagmire. Let the revolution in Libya sort itself out and act accordingly.
John_Muhammad
March 14th, 2011 at 11:34 am
As hard a decision as it may be when faced with pro-freedom revolutionaries being defeated, I think it's the lesser evil to stand off and avoid getting involved. The Libyan revolution must stand or fall on its own merits- as JB pointed out, it's a no-win either way we turn. At this point it's simply a choice between the lesser of two evils.
It's like teaching your kid to ride a bike- you know they are going to fall, and you do your best to teach them not to, but sooner or later you have to let go and see what they can do on their own. If this revolution fails in Libya, Allah(swt) forbid, it will serve as a teaching point for those who are willing to have another go at it in the future-they'll figure out where they went wrong and what they did right and plan accordingly.
John_Muhammad
March 14th, 2011 at 11:35 am
Yes. No borders, no country. Continual expansion of territory = aggressive fake country.
Sam
March 14th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
The UN chief of that time was Boutros Ghali, not Kofi Annan.
andy
March 14th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
Fake. Real. Lets just mind our own business.
Raashid
March 14th, 2011 at 12:28 pm
Surely you as an uber-Zionist must be thrilled by the sight of Arabs killing each other, isn't that what gets you guys wet? Zionists have been at the forefront of telling us how Ay-rabs are naturally inclined to hate Westerners for their freedoms, jelousy of their success etc. so why would you want to answer their alleged calls for help? Surely you should be supporting Justins theses with the full range of sophistry in your arsenal to make sure Gadaffy remains in power and keeps his people on a leash. After all, every dead Libyan is one less that may at some point in the future decide to assist their Palestinains co-relgionists.
RickR30
March 14th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
How dare you…israel is the only real country in the universe. The only country that matters. It matters more to American politicians than America. It fulfills a divine promise. jehova created only israel, all other countries are merely human inventions, those are fake…
Terrance&Philip
March 14th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
I have long wondered: If Britain and France declared war on Germany for invading Poland, why didn't they do the same against Russia, which also invaded Poland?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 14th, 2011 at 12:53 pm
C'mon, of course it was ironic. I've been taught to read and write and to behave at a table by a concentration camp survivor.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 14th, 2011 at 1:04 pm
Konzlager in German. She wasn't Jewish but she had Jewish inmates. Learning of her death is the saddest moment in my life.
andy
March 14th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
What country was there "since the beginning"?
andy
March 14th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
When some days later the USSR did invade, a panicked British government was afraid the wording of the ultimatum to Hitler over Poland would legally require a declaration of war against the Soviet Union. Needless to say, London was immensely relieved when this turned out not to be so.
andy
March 14th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
The thing to do with a no-win situation is to not do anything at all.
By the way, I don't think the 'west' had or has any particular responsibility to Rwanda or Libya.
andy
March 14th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Yes. And a immense burden to America too.
Bodkin
March 14th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
"Surely you as an uber-Zionist must be thrilled"
I'm not an uber-Zionist. I don't believe in "Greater Israel"; I'm an agnostic; I don't believe anyone was divinely "chosen"; I believe in compromise; I don't want Israel to be an occupier; I don't support theocracy, etc. I'm just tired of the world demonizing what was created to be a place of refuge, forever seeking to dismantle it, holding it to a double standard, spewing endless hatred at its people, and so on.
I'm not "thrilled" when innocents of any country get hurt. Genocidal zealots I find harder to pity.
Arabs don't "hate Westerners for their freedoms". Ideological extremists do, some of whom are Arabic.
"Surely you should be supporting Justins theses" – If I did, why would I point out a weakness in his argument? But America is stretched thin and it's time for others to play the role of hero. Egypt is right next door. They should be the ones to rescue their fellow Arabs.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 14th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
At least, there's a point on which we agree.
noninterventionist
March 14th, 2011 at 3:08 pm
Just out of curiousity, Mr. Raimondo, do you feel that the de-facto secessionist movement is likely to succeed in making Cyrenaica independent, or will the refusal of the rebels' leadership to recognize the secessionist nature of their movement be their downfall?
Carpenter
March 14th, 2011 at 4:00 pm
Funny that you don't mention North Vietnam in the same way. Apparently the South Vietnamese were not legitimate enough to resist invasion, but the North Vietnamese had the legitimacy to invade? Right. Typical leftist thinking.
The Viet Minh murdered or turned in the leaders of the Nationalist and Buddhist resistance movements in Indochina. So that any rebel-minded young man would have no choice but to join the communists. They deliberately destroyed other strong resistance movements, weakening the resistance overall – putting the lie to communism caring about a country. Just like in China, where the cowardly communist criminals refused to fight the Japanese invasion, and left it all to the Kuomintang, who died in the millions defending their country. Communists are never real patriots, they only exploit patriotism when profitable, and mock it when profitable.
After the communists invaded North Vietnam they murdered more than a million South Vietnamese. The South Vietnamese didn't like their government much, but they definitely didn't want to be slaves to the communist butchers. Even today the South Vietnamese generally hate the northerners. And both in the North and South, they hate communism. If you had met any Vietnamese, you would know that. No one there believes in communism anymore, they know that it destroyed their economy and made them poor. They could have been prosperous like the Taiwanese, the Japanese or the South Koreans now, if they had remained free.
Are you sorry South Korea wasn't invaded too? "South Korea isn't a real country! Therefore they should be invaded by communists who had taken the other half of the country!" I'll remember to tell the Koreans I know about that when I see them next time.
freshnotbitter
March 14th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Whenever western spokesmen address the Arabian revolts they like to speak in terms of the "opposition". They say they need to organize "opposition parties" in Egypt so there can be elections. In the accompanying article to the above post about the British Bollixed mission to Benghazi (which is recommended reading) we are told by the Brits that they wanted to make contact with the "opposition".
As soon as Mubarak stepped down, the Egyptians should have elected individuals to a people's parliament in a snap election. Instead, they were told by all the "wise" men that time was needed to "organize the opposition" and create "valid political organizations", etc.
The movie "The Leopard" (Visconti), ends with a society ball that takes place after the revolutions of the 1860's and one society matron asks "do you see new people here?" to which another replies "the people are all the same but the uniforms have changed".
juvanya
March 14th, 2011 at 4:44 pm
Interesting perspective. I like it…but the Council still has claims on Tripoli, so how does this all reconcile? Maybe it will become like Somalia? (Somaliland being independent, but not recognized)
juvanya
March 14th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Palestine didnt exist ever.
juvanya
March 14th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
No, America is a burden to Israel with all its pro-Arab bullshit policies.
juvanya
March 14th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
You refer to the Arabs and their giant empire right?
andy
March 14th, 2011 at 5:09 pm
America should have stayed out of both Vietnam and Korea.
andy
March 14th, 2011 at 5:11 pm
Wilson is the great villian of history. A pompous do-gooder who screwed up everything.
andy
March 14th, 2011 at 5:12 pm
Typical chickenhawk bulls***.
andy
March 14th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
Yes. Because Israel gives America 3 billion a year in foriegn aid.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 14th, 2011 at 5:24 pm
Dead scapegoats come handy, don't they? What about now, today, ahora, jetzt?
bilbo
March 14th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Actually the idea of a racial distinction between Hutus and Tutsis is an artificial product of western colonialists. Prior to European colonial rule there existed in what is now Burundi and Rwanda a monarchy. There was also a religion that legitimized the monarchy based on the worship of some sort of Goddess. The word Tutsi referred to the monarchy and the aristocracy while the common people were Hutus. However these were not firm boundaries or racial divisions and there was intermarriage between Hutus and Tutsis. When the Belgians arrived they adopted a theory that certain peoples in Africa were natural rulers because they were racially superior. They then conducted a census in which every person in Rwanda had to be classified as either a Hutu or a Tutsi and issued an identity card. (Years later these cards were used to identify victims during the genocide.) They then began a policy of discriminating in favor of Tutsis. Shortly before independence, a Belgian military officer organized a coup that overthrew the Tutsi monarchy and established a Hutu ruled regime. Following independence the country continued to be ruled by Hutu regimes of varying degrees of brutality. These regimes developed a relationship with France in which the French provided weapons and military training. The alliance between the French government and the genocidaires was one of the major obstacles in the way of people who wanted to stop the killing.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 14th, 2011 at 7:06 pm
Nobody can be happy watching a civil war. And as much as Bodkin gives me jitters for being the Zionist he is, I am sure that events in Libya don't make him happy either.
By connecting Libyans and Palestinians the way you do, you are making a big disservice to the Palestinian cause. Fyi, I detest my fellow French for their conformism and their blind obedience.
Nine years ago, I was working in a company that produced language learning methods. It got a big contract with the US govt to develop an Arab learning method. They hired Arab linguistics competent people. What the American didn't realise was that an Iraqi Arab was capable of identifying a Moroccan Arab just by accent.
Americans attacked Iraq. And a French colleague, highly educated, told me he was against the invasion but since it happened, he hoped the Americans would win. What I told him is not suitable for publishing.
To cut the story short, there are no freedoms in the West, I don't have a favourite side in Libya, the Arab world is not monolithic, quite the contrary, it's extremely heterogeneous, and I think that what's happening in Libya definitely isn't anybody else's affair.
Let Libyans sort their things out. Get hands off Africa. Westerners already have done enough harm there. I don't want Africans to hate me because my government is made of morons.
starr
March 14th, 2011 at 7:10 pm
In your arguement for intervention you mention places where the US should have intervened and places where they mistakenly did. Why is there no mention of an intervention you thought was successful? Perhaps because there isn't one. Had the US or the "international community" gotten involved in Rwanda who is to say the results would not have ended up worse then they were.
The problem with outsiders coming in is firstly that they don't have the understanding of local dynamics at play and secondly they bring their on agendas with them which leads to creating more problems then it solves
John_Muhammad
March 14th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
When was the last time an 'Arab' nation went to war for territorial conquest? When was the last time an 'Arab' nation simply annexed territories that it had no legal claim to- and when did it place settlers there illegally in order to falsely justify their annexation?
No, sir, I am definitely not referring to an Arab nation, or group of nations. We know exactly who fits this description in the Middle East- and it's not an Arab nation. Three guesses who it might be- go.
AWLor0
March 14th, 2011 at 11:47 pm
The US shoulda stayed out of the 1st World War. That was a lot of Christian countries slaughtering each other, and, though it was "won", it led of course to the 2nd WW, which was the same but with a few Bhuddist countries joining in…then the rise of the MIC…Korea… Vietnam, and so on…
Raashid
March 15th, 2011 at 6:48 am
I agree that what's happening in Libya has no connection to Palestine, but Zion has a track record of connecting unrelated issues and turning them into a "threat" to themselves, the US and the entire free world. Witness their fulminations about how Obama "betrayed" Mubarak and how concerned they are about who the Egyptian people choose as their next leaders.
I'd also doubt that the Zionists have anything but glee at seeing Arabs get killed. After all, they were the loudest cheerleaders for laying Iraq to waste, continue to call for the same action to be repeated against Iran and Syria.
Raashid
March 15th, 2011 at 6:50 am
"I believe in compromise"
Zionist belief in compromise = belief that Arabs should compromise their, lives, property and dignity into the service of Israel
The Internet Guy
March 15th, 2011 at 7:28 am
Totally agree. If the world wants the Rebels to win so that this democratic revolution succeeds, then NATO has to intervene to save the Rebels. Otherwise, they would be crushed…
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 15th, 2011 at 8:31 am
I am sorry if I have misinterpreted your reply.
Sam
March 15th, 2011 at 9:00 am
It will be difficult for the west to single out Lybia , Iran and remain silent when US allies Saudi Arabia, Bahrein and Yemen too are crushing their rebellion.
jackbootstate
March 15th, 2011 at 9:22 am
How this country came into existence is inconsequential right now. It exists as an internationally recognized nation state. This could play a role in how this civil war is sorted out, but for the moment the foreign powers that be don't want Libya to be broken up and want to some how keep it together.
What is more important is that Qaddafi has dug in and it appears he has a good chance of surviving this uprising. It is inspiring the counter revolutionary reaction now with the dictator in Yemen digging in and the royals in Bahrain apparently accepting a Saudi occupation of their country.
This is the contradiction facing Washington policy planners at the moment. They've come out calling for getting rid of Qaddafi, while he is in reality providing a model for how they would like these uprisings dealt with in the rest of the Arab world. I'm sure if Qaddafi has made any contact with Washington since the uprising he's telling him he's doing them a favor by trying his best to put it down.
Yes, the self styled "revolutionary" Qaddafi is showing the way for counter-revolutionary reaction everywhere.
liberranter
March 15th, 2011 at 9:29 am
Cite for us, specifically, these "pro-Arab bullshit" policies.
Take all the space you need, but I think the empty space between the brackets below this is more than enough.
[ ]
liberranter
March 15th, 2011 at 9:30 am
Neither did Israel. It was Judea or Galilee.
conumishu
March 15th, 2011 at 9:30 am
Wasn't it Tripolitania?
We (I for sure) do have difficulties in quickly identifying which is which…
conumishu
March 15th, 2011 at 9:32 am
Saudis apparently giving a helping hand to Bahrein ruler. Bahrein & SA who own "legitimate" mercenaries, btw.
conumishu
March 15th, 2011 at 9:41 am
No one could prove the wide popular support for the lybian uprising. If, in a matter of very few days, protesters/rebels with help from local military units take control of a city, no one can tell if the local population isn't simply bowing to the new men with guns in charge. The way of arms is very risky even when you have large support, so who's interest was to turn a possibly succesful (judging by recent precedents) peaceful revolt into a coup? My guess is it was a coup right from the start. Poorly prepared if it intended to overthrow G., maybe less so if it wants to split Lybia. I guess we'll soon find out – from events unfolding, not from media coverage which reached a new low imo.
Bianca
March 15th, 2011 at 9:58 am
How can one be so proud of so much ignorance? Why not take time and trouble and REALLY learn the origins of Korean or Vietnamese split? You will have no trouble finding information. But I guess your version of the reality is more comfortable to you. For as long as you do not try with so much fake authority to force it upon others. I would not presume to educate you, however tempting it may be. One has to accept that people, once indoctrinated, would never, ever open their minds. Enjoy your life in Matrix. It is a pleasant one — it has all the answers. And the steak tastes always so much better without any unpleasant knowledge intruding.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 15th, 2011 at 10:56 am
If racist white supremacist Britain had allied with racist whitesupremacist Germany… Is that your point?
rogerpaul
March 15th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
Kofi Annan was head of UN Peacekeeping and allowed the report by the head of the small UN peacekeeping force in Rwanda at the time, Lieutenant General Romeo Dallaire, to languish just so he would not piss of the Americans and jeopardise his chances of becoming UN Sec Gen. Dalliaire wrote Shake Hands with the Devil The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda.
rogerpaul
March 15th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
This is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to failure. THe US should stop picking up the wrong fight. A small intervention now will boost US popularity tremendously, and get rid of Gaddafi who has no love lost for the US anyway. No one is asking for ground troops. Just a no fly zone which is easy to enforce. Anyway, by not intervening the world community is supporting Gaddafi There is no neutrality in this kind of conflict.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 15th, 2011 at 1:31 pm
God are you all such morons? Killing people in order to boost popularity? Just out of curiosity, have you ever looked a gun on the receiving end, you know, like looking at a tube eager to spill overhung by a sight through which your life is aimed?
Sam
March 15th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
After the Somalia fiasco, the US and France which supported the Hutus didn't want to send ground troops to Africa and the UN-SC was tied.
John_Muhammad
March 15th, 2011 at 4:13 pm
The racial attitudes in this case are really irrelevant- both countries could have been Eskimo Rights Activists for all the difference it would have made. No, the alliance *should* have been made for political reasons- racial reasons would not have even factored into it.
Britain had an interest in defeating the Soviet threat as did Germany, and considering that the Soviets might not have gotten much farther without the support of the US, it's a fair topic of debate if a Britain/Germany (and later, US) alliance would have been strong enough to defeat the Soviet Union, or at least contain it.
Instead, Britain played its cards close to the vest and opted to let Germany commit suicide bleeding the Soviet Union in hopes that the post-war situation wold have turned out more in its favor. As we see, though, the Soviets were the immediate overall winners in the European theater, and Britain was left to finish in third place.
But to return to your reply: no, the racial attitudes of Britain and Germany at the time were not- and should not- have been a factor in the possibility forming an alliance against the Soviets.
Arab Deaths and US Hypocrisy
March 22nd, 2011 at 3:43 am
[...] [...]
juvanya
March 6th, 2012 at 6:59 am
And just a year later: https://rt.com/news/libya-split-cyrenaica-autonom…