The Conservative Awakening
They're finally getting wise to the empire racket
One has only to look at today’s headlines at Antiwar.com to see the trend:
Another news story details the results of a survey which shows a dramatic turnabout, on the war:
"Two-thirds of conservatives support a reduction in troop levels in Afghanistan. When given a choice between three options, 66% believe we can either reduce the troop levels in Afghanistan, but continue to fight the war effectively (39%) or think we should leave Afghanistan all together, as soon as possible (27%). Just 24% of conservatives believe we should continue to provide the current level of troops to properly execute the war. 64% of Tea Party supporters think we should either reduce troop levels (37%) or leave Afghanistan (27%) while 28% support maintaining current troop levels. Among conservatives who don’t identify with the Tea Party movement, 70% want a reduction (43%) or elimination (27%) of troops while only 18% favoring continuation of the current level."
It wasn’t all that long ago that David Frum could credibly excommunicate Bob Novak, Pat Buchanan, and other conservative opponents of the Iraq war in the pages of National Review. Today, however, as the American empire goes into foreclosure, and a decade of constant war has brought us no closer to "victory," those who want to limit the power and expense of government are finally beginning to wake up to the war racket. The idea that we could be the world’s policeman and still keep the reality as well as the form of a constitutional republic was always an illusion, and the veil is lifted from the eyes of grassroots conservatives at last.
The response to these developments is what’s interesting. On the left, the Huffington Post is, well, a bit huffy about it, with Dan Froomkin reporting Grover Norquist’s contention that America’s overseas wars are a strategic as well as an economic disaster:
"Being tied up there does not advance American power. If you’ve got a fist in the tar baby Iraq and you’ve got a fist in the tar baby Afghanistan, then who’s afraid of you?"
Is the liberal Huffington Post, whose proprietor spends a lot of time on television criticizing the Obama administration for continuing the war, head over heels because of this crack in the pro-war consensus? Of course not. Indeed, Froomkin utilizes Norquist’s word choice to manufacture a particularly vicious, albeit utterly ridiculous, accusation:
"His word choice was vivid, but problematic. ‘Tar baby’ is often used as shorthand to describe an inextricable problem or situation, but it is also a derogatory term for black people. Such public figures as Republican presidential contender Mitt Romney and former White House press secretary Tony Snow have taken flak for using the term."
It does little good to point to the context, and note that Norquist’s statement would be reduced to meaningless gibberish if the latter definition is assumed: Froomkin doesn’t want to hear what Norquist is really saying,
but only conjuring his readers’ intractable prejudices. Besides which,
Froomkin is not actually saying Norquist is a racist, but only letting the innuendo splatter against the noted conservative’s face. And these are the people who want to restore "civility" to the public discourse!
However, this kind of petty viciousness is but a pallid blue flame compared to the white-hot anger of Max Boot, writing on the Commentary blog:
"If you want any further evidence of conservative support for the war effort in Afghanistan, look no further than Grover Norquist’s laughable effort to organize a "center-right" coalition against the war. Apparently, Grover wants to pull out of Afghanistan as a money-saving measure — a line of argument, which if followed to its natural conclusion, should also have led us to pull out of World War II while Hitler or Tojo were still in power or to end the Civil War while Jefferson Davis still ruled the South."
If you’re a neocon, it’s always 1939 — or 1862. Every struggle is an existential struggle. Hitler, Jefferson Davis, Mullah Omar — it’s all the same Evil, which takes on different forms down through the years, but retains its essential essence. This is what we heard in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq: Saddam was Hitler, and any attempt to avoid war was an act of "appeasement," another "Munich." And as for those actively protesting the war once it started, why they were nothing less than "fifth columnists," as Andrew Sullivan used to put it before he sensed sticking with the neocons was a bad career move.
To say that Boot, who once bemoaned the lack of casualties in the initial stages of the Afghan war, lacks either moral or common sense is to point out the obvious. Yet there is an extra note of hysteria in this latest hyperbolic tantrum, as if the prospect of facing a rebellion within what the neocons regard as their base is driving Boot over the edge of credibility. Because what’s laughable isn’t Norquist’s raising of this issue, but the efforts of Boot and his dwindling band of dead-enders to stamp out the rebellion before it gains enough momentum to have a real effect. The problem for the neocons, however, is that the revolt has already spread far beyond the possibility of suppression.
Bubbling up from the grassroots, this is a revolution on the right, and it portends a struggle that is truly existential as far as the neocons are concerned. Having attached themselves to the conservative movement in the 1980s, this mini-movement which traces its origins back to a schismatic variety of Trotskyism would be content to suck the very life out of its conservative host — but it looks like the host is finally waking up to the danger.
Boot excoriates Norquist for recalling Reagan’s decision to pull out of Lebanon by reminding us that Osama bin Laden used this as an example of why the US is a "weak horse." What he forgets is that bin Laden, having lured us into Iraq and Afghanistan, also famously predicted the US would go bankrupt pursuing him and his fellows to the ends of the earth.
Economic reality — or, indeed, reality of any sort — has never been the neocons’ forte. You’ll recall that, when they were in power, a top White House aide confided to journalist Ron Suskind what they considered to be their historic mission:
"The aide said that guys like me were ‘in what we call the reality-based community,’ which he defined as people who ‘believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.’ … ‘That’s not the way the world really works anymore,’ he continued. ‘We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.’"
Reality has finally caught up with the conservative movement, however, much to the neocons’ intense annoyance. Let Boot have hysterics:, and let the Huffington Post liberals throw their mudballs. As Chris Middleton, of the Ohio Liberty Council, a leading tea party group, put it the other day: it’s all about the math, and the numbers don’t lie. With military spending accounting for 56 percent of discretionary spending, and the US about to lose its triple-A credit rating, the inexorable logic of the budget-cutters leads to one and only one conclusion: it’s time to rein in the War Party, and abandon our foreign policy of imperialism — because empires are a luxury that no modern nation can afford any longer.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Antiwar.com vs. the FBI – May 21st, 2013
- Two Cheers for ‘Isolationism’ – May 19th, 2013
- Our Civil Liberties, RIP – May 16th, 2013
- Raping the World – May 14th, 2013
- The Price of Peace – May 12th, 2013





A grateful reader
January 13th, 2011 at 10:11 pm
Bring the boys and gals home and redeploy them to protect our borders with Mexico and Canada.
By the way, Justin, are you sure that running with the neocons is a bad career move? They still have the money, the power, and the megaphone so far as I can tell. Which makes the work you do here at antiwar.com all the more admirable.
wadosy
January 13th, 2011 at 10:25 pm
justin says…
which came first, justin?
china's decision to build a pipeline terminus and tanker port at gwadar, or bin laden and 9/11?
why, even after the invasion of afghanistan and the rout of the taliban, was the US unable to find any evidence of bin laden's participation in 9/11?
wadosy
January 13th, 2011 at 10:37 pm
if you take a close look at the people who are running this operation… their ambitions (benevolent global hegemony, full-spectrum dominance), their philosophy (racial supremacism and the "noble lie", lying as policy in governance), their history (false flags as a routine tactic), and their occupation of positions of great power in america…
if you look at all that, doesnt it seem likely, especially in light of the lack of evidence, that the neocons were spooked by china, and cobbled up 9/11 and the bin laden story as a pretext to justify their "operation enduring turmoil", which will mess up chinese pipeline access to persian gulf and central asian gas and oil, and accomplish that without confronting china directly? …seeing as how neocons are basically chickenshit?
About 21,400 results for "operation enduring turmoil"
wadosy
January 13th, 2011 at 10:53 pm
the neocons and their big money looter allies must be rolling in the aisles, laughing about their legend of bin laden, manufactured by israeli and israeli american thinktank cowboys, that provides cover for their looting of america,.
wadosy
January 13th, 2011 at 11:02 pm
the EIA has a new format for publishing their energy stats.
very slow in loading, and no good news… global crude oil production is still stuck, and has been since 2005, at about 73 million barrels a day… but libertarians cannot countenance that fact, because according to libertarian dogma, the market will find a way to replace those trillion barrels of easy oil we've already burned.
and peak oil has absolutely nothing to do with these wars to gain control of oil and restrict chinese access to oil.
nope, nothing, nada, zilch, and we can be sure of that, because the libertarian political kommissars have decreed it.
james
January 13th, 2011 at 11:06 pm
Sorry Justin, these numbers show that Americans and particularly the conservatives do not really get it. WHAT THE HELL ARE WE DOING IN AFGHANISTAN ANYWAY.
But the good news is that 27% do get it now.
Johnny in Wi.
January 13th, 2011 at 11:27 pm
Tar baby is the correct term for Afganistan and Iraq too, for that matter. Obama is Brer Rabbit. He is stuck and no one is going to get him out but real conservatives and libertraian realists who have to take over, or the economy and the country is sunk. The only way to extricate us from this tar baby is to bring all the troops home. Let the Middle East, Europe, Japan and Korea defend themselves. Before one penny is cut from the Social Security or food stamps for Americans, lets stop all aid to the world's number one welfare queen, Israel.
sherban
January 13th, 2011 at 11:47 pm
I, too,didn't understand something in Justin's article:Bin Laden lured US in Iraq?and in Afghanistan?If so,what relevance has this quote:"when they were in power, a top White House aide confided to journalist Ron Suskind what they considered to be their historic mission:
"The aide said that guys like me were ‘in what we call the reality-based community,’ which he defined as people who ‘believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.’ … ‘That’s not the way the world really works anymore,’ he continued. ‘We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.’"
Montaigne
January 14th, 2011 at 1:47 am
I tried to figure the costs on a true and only spin-controlled collection of a one-world society, which is, what the American empire clearly aspires to become.
Take this example:
I took a test on brain-trining, which yesterday was placed in an ad on Antiwar.com. After replying on a few questions, they offered some programme, but to get that offer, I had to read through thousands of words in a quite obscure and complicated legal document, in order to ascertain, THAT ONLY THE CORPORATIONS INTENDED GOALS SHOULD BE USED BY ME, WHEN USING THEIR SOFTWARE. And this is routinely done with everything on the internet, which have been "liberated" by the new, empirical world order of globalization..
Contrast this with much lesser words in any CONSTITUTION for whole societies! And the also obviously much lesser collection of words in any international treaty, or what for obvious reasons of mind span can be brought into political negotiations and deals. It simply CANNOT POSSIBLY BE DONE TO REGULATE THE WHOLE WORLD BY SPIN OR WORDS ONLY! Before any issue is solved by fantastically complicated legal proceedings at enormous costs, people will do, what they need to do, and act like they have to act.
The world and it's realities exists without words. Words, or spin, can never become more than what they stand for: a PARTIAL PICTURE, and never does either. So STATE TERROR is the only future staring us into the eyes to upheld that semi-reality. You will become a dictated robot. And of course the spontaneous innovations becomes restricted, eliminating the advantage from more minds at work in the world.
It is a fundamental error, this endeavour, regardless of how much heart or anger is invested into upholding it.
bogi666
January 14th, 2011 at 2:51 am
To borrow a phrase from a TV ad, "actuality, not reality".When reality and actuality collide what actually happens is important. As for the "reality based community" I guess they didn't check with the countries where they were actually going to be engaged and what their reality might be. The reality community will be remembered as being the disgusting, despicable,ingrate cretins they are and their arrogance and hubris along with their ignorance is the actuality of their reality. Just as reality exists, so does unreality.
GradyWilson
January 14th, 2011 at 3:30 am
I welcome the fascist right's alleged opposition to war but do take it with a grain of salt. Cynicism is warranted for these warmongers. Would they be questioning the war if McCain/Palin were sending the troops to die in vain or is this simply an anti Obama tar baby action? Are they sincerely questioning the US capitalist military empire or do they simply want to draw down in Afghanistan to focus on other areas like Iran or Colombia? Are their motivations really to oppose US military aggression or simply out of political opportunity? These are legitimate questions.
What Justin of course fails to mention is that the last war funding vote 102 Dems voted against – with only 12 Repubs joining them. Several of these anti-war Dems were replaced by pro-war Repubs/Tea Partiers. Lets see how many Republicans truly have woken up when the the next vote transpires.
Has not antiwar.com completely transformed into a pro-Republican, anti-Democrat political advocacy group – shouldn't this jeopardize its non-profit status? Justin is nothing more than a GOP shill – not even attempting to shroud his advocacy anymore. Make no mistake about it – he makes NO attempts to unite the anti-war left and right. He is completely adversarial and dismissive with the left and 100% pro GOP – except in funding drives of course.
Remember 102 to 12.
GradyWilson
January 14th, 2011 at 3:56 am
"those who want to limit the power and expense of government are finally beginning to wake up to the war racket." -JR
aren't those the same Republicans who expanded gov with the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorist Act, torture, spying on Americans, getting rid of Habeus Corpus, etc, etc. Aren't those the same people who call anti-war liberals "anti-Americans who hate the troops"? Hasn't the GOP advocated a larger war budget every year forever? Its blatantly deceitful for you to refer to these people who advocated the expansion of state power as "those who want to limit the power and expense of gov". Again – do you have an editor to catch these obvious contradictions (lies).
You are a pathetic hyper partisan shill Justin Raimondo. When Bush was in office your venom was correctly aimed at 'both' parties being responsible for US foreign policy but now under Obama you are 100% pro GOP while blaming Dems for everything. You have no integrity.
Again – please follow your heart and go work for the TeaParty/Republicans, bring back Jeff Huber, and leave this site for people who sincerely are looking to unite the antiwar left and right. You are a liability in achieving this stated goal.
Montaigne
January 14th, 2011 at 4:14 am
You seem to be a little out of balance. Isn't it nice to support an awakening with former supporters of all this insanity?
jojo
January 14th, 2011 at 5:22 am
Justin Knows better then to rat out the real culprits–the Cult Firsters
emsnews
January 14th, 2011 at 5:40 am
How true. Always, always, the GOP right wingers oppose wars if the President is a Democrat. Back during the Serbian war, McCain and his crew of warmongers relentlessly attacked Clinton and I would mock them as hippie peaceniks. Naturally, within months of a GOP Bush Presidency, it was war, war, war all the time coupled with something Clinton did not do: tax cuts!
This insane system where the GOP goes to war while cutting taxes is part of what is wrong with the entire Libertarian ideology: they hate socialism and hate taxes a lot more than they hate wars. Instead of using their anti-tax beliefs to stop wars, they always form alliances with the GOP when it is out of power to constrict Democratic war spending and then are shafted by the GOP when in power on the topic of wars but not taxes so they don't actively fight the GOP where it matters: on the tax issues.
Imagine if Raimondo were to attack tax cuts relentlessly, demanding the GOP pay for their warmongering ways! He should demand taxes for socialism not wars. Then he and the left will have something very good in common. Instead, he hates our socialism so much (why does he hate things that help Americans, anyways?) he cannot form even a casual alliance with us. His antiwar stance is childish since it doesn't understand how international corporations are the driving force behind our many wars. Not ideology, not even Zionism, though Zionists ride this tiger. That is, their endless war against all Muslims gives us a billion excuses to keep on fighting all the time.
The war mongering against China is a very dangerous development. Our trade partners in Asia are egging this on and it is a very, very, very expensive war in that no one thinks the Chinese will call our bluff and start WWIII. So we can spent trillions on fancy weapons with no deaths that irritate the local populace here at home.
ebquillen
January 14th, 2011 at 6:00 am
The problem is separating the Republicans who are using the Afghan war as a club to beat Obama from those who genuinely believe that defense expenditures need to be cut. Many Republicans have privately thought for years that both Iraq and Afghanistan are mistakes but they have been reluctant to break ranks. What is needed is the development of an across the board consensus – right center left – that Afghanistan is both unwise and unwinnable. We are close to that point now. Obama might even wake up at that point and end it.
Troville
January 14th, 2011 at 6:10 am
I respect Justin Raimondo and I read his articles frequently, but it does seem as though his perceptions of reality are shaped heavily — and inaccurately, in my view — by his conservative allegiances. Just as the Democrats began to criticize the Iraq War when Bush was in office and it became a politically safe endeavor, so now the Republicans (or at least a minority) are fulminating against the war in Afghanistan while Obama sits in the White House. I really don't buy that they have suddenly become opposed to the American Empire or have become serious about fiscal responsibility (once again, now the national debt and out-of-control spending is a problem, but clearly they had no problem with reckless spending when Bush was in office). This strikes me as nothing more than crass political opportunism.
Mark
January 14th, 2011 at 6:15 am
Republicans say they want to end the war of a Democrat President. That same president came to office saying he wanted to end the war of a Republican President. The result will always be: wars.
Incredulous
January 14th, 2011 at 6:19 am
No. Brings the boys and gals home and let them get proper jobs. The military is an integral part of the problem. Believe me, you DON'T want them protectin' stuff at home any more than you should want them smashin' stuff overseas.
John V. Walsh
January 14th, 2011 at 6:25 am
Great column, Justin and doubters should read carefully the news yesterday on AW.C.
It is notable that your column has drawn the ire of some Dems, who cannot abide the fact that there is genuine antiwar sentiment on the Right and it is far more passionate than anything I have seen on the Left – unfortunately so since I am a man of the Left.
Let me make two points.
First, everal of the comments above suggest that the antiwar Right has only criticized Obama. This literally turns truth on its head. The genuine Right, the paleos and the Libertarians at both AW.C and The American Conservative were as critical of the wars when they were Bush's wars as when they are Obama's wars. The same is not true of the Democratic Left which was all for impeachment when Bush was in charge but cannot even mount a decent street demo now that the Messiah is running the wars.
Second, I believe Norquist senses that there is a brand new opening for the Republican Party as the antiwar party. If one goes to comments on the internet or comes to Libertarian events such as the recent LPA event in Boston, one finds not a few former liberal Dems who have become Ron Paul libertarians as a result of the Dems' being every bit as prowar as the Republicans. (When their votes are really needed to get war funding, they all fall in line as they did in early 2007 when it looked like war funding was in jeopardy. Our ENTIRE very "liberal" Dem Congressional delegation here in MA, including the "peacenik" Jim McGovern, voted for funding then.) So the Dems are in danger of losing their antiwar base. And Norquist realizes that such is the revulsion for war that the Republicans could pick it up. That must scare the bejesus out of the Dems – much worse than any war to them.
So let the competition begin between the two War Parties to change their skin and establish themselves as genuine anti-interventionist outfits. If they understand that they can win elections that way, or more importantly that they may lose their sinecures and sense of self-importance if they do not change, there is no telling how far they may go. I look forward to seeing Nancy Pelosi and Newt Gingrich trying to out peace one another – and to the neocons and AIPAC loyalists gnashing their teeth over it.
John V. Walsh
Incredulous
January 14th, 2011 at 6:28 am
Supporting this 'awakening' makes as much sense as supporting Obama's 'change'. It makes political sense for conservatives to be against the war at this time, but if they get back into power it will be business as usual. While I take issue with Grady's hyperbolic vitriol, I agree that an antiwar front across all parties is the still the only game in town.
wadosy
January 14th, 2011 at 6:33 am
you think pelosi and gingrich will throw israel to the wolves, huh?
wadosy
January 14th, 2011 at 6:38 am
it always comes down to the same thing: israel must be secured before its american protection expires from oil shortages.
that was one of the goals of the PNAC project, but putin put a serious kink in PNAC by taking russian oil back from the oily israeli russians allied with the AEI/PNAC neocons who dreamed this project up.
google: AEI PNAC exxon yukos
of course, all these big wheel (supposed) zionists have a fallback position, looting… and it looks like that's where we're at.
the only question, now, is: how much of the loot is going to israel?
or are the AEI/PNAC/goldman boys just using israel, the "war on terror", and their jewishness as cover for their looting operation?
or are there factions? …most likely it's a fluid situation, various factions will have more aces (like 9/11) up their grimy little sleeves, and it's improbable that they'd ever initiate such a risky undertaking as the PNAC project without a few layers of fallbacks.
wadosy
January 14th, 2011 at 6:51 am
John V. Walsh says…
oh yeah, pelosi and gingrich are gonna throw israel to the wolves.
sure
MichaelKenny
January 14th, 2011 at 7:03 am
One of the oddities of this situation is that the leftwing sites are still "defending" the Empire, at least in the sense that they postulate it as something eternal, invincible and omnipotent. Maybe the American left is just too, well … conservative!
wadosy
January 14th, 2011 at 7:25 am
the empire is going down, and i think most of the big shakers and movers know it.
like hillary, who seems, against all odds, to be aware of peak oil… she said yesterday, in doha…
of course, hillary was berating oily muslim countries for their "corrupt institutions and a stagnant political order."
irony does not seem to be hillary's strong suit.
Montaigne
January 14th, 2011 at 7:42 am
I'm afraid this makes sense! One should learn from the past! And the other voices listed below makes sense too!
Generalissimo X
January 14th, 2011 at 7:55 am
wow..after a decade with millions dead, displaced and our republic in ruins the "conservatives" figurre it out..well BFD. you'd have thought if they had any brains they would have come to this OBVIOUS CONCONCLUSION a decade ago. it's not like many weren't writing of this (bankruptcy i.e. economic ruin)as a real consequence before these criminal atrocities ever occured. the mere fact that the architects walk the streets after what they have done shows what a toothless and weak society we've become when it comes to the rule of law. conservatism and liberalism or really any ism is a useless trope when no one adheres to the rule of law or the constitution. it's not hindsight to think that had that been done from the outset, we'd never be in this mess in the first place.
MvGuy
January 14th, 2011 at 8:00 am
Make the employ of illegals a felony and it will be easy to patrol the border….. There will be no real traffic of unauthorized crossings… Poor job prospects combined with the collapsing dollar are making the trek less desirable…..Add the felony stick to the equation…. It will have low real cost because those bagged will be able to pay to extricate themselves and/or their companies…
It is much cheaper solution than militarizing the border…..
GradyWilson
January 14th, 2011 at 8:03 am
A few comments to Walsh;
- There is sincere antiwar sentiment on the Left and the Right but there is no threat to militant capitalist imperialism from either the Dems or the Repubs.
- The antiwar right could/can not mount a decent antiwar street demo under Bush OR Obama
- criticism of Justin's hyperbolic cheerleading of a few Repubs talking about drawing down in Afghanistan is justified – talk is cheap.
- Leftist Dems do not view Obama as a "Messiah". More Dems voted against thier Pres in war funding than did Repubs 102 to 12! Leftist Dems stayed home in Nov because of their disgust with Obama being Bush's third term. These facts make your right wing "Messiah' talking point look obviously silly and bogus.
- Norquist, as you point out, is simply a political opportunist – not a sincere opponent of US military aggression
- You are either self delusional or self loathing by calling yourself a "man of the left"
GradyWilson
January 14th, 2011 at 8:12 am
Which sites Michael Kenny?
I go to left sites like CommonDreams, Alternet, TruthOut, Buzzflash, SmirkingChimp, InformedComment, DemocracyNow, etc, etc, regularly and they all have consistently opioned against the Empire for years. They have published some of the most scathing critics* of the Obama administation (*reality based – not Bircher, TeaBagger, silly talk lies and hate).
MvGuy
January 14th, 2011 at 8:14 am
*********************** CORRECTION……………………………………….
NOT the worlds No.1 Welfare Queen…………. The U.S.'s No.1 Welfare Queen…………………..
wadosy
January 14th, 2011 at 8:25 am
What are your legal risks for renting to or employing illegals?
Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):
A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:
assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or
encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.
MvGuy
January 14th, 2011 at 8:34 am
"With military spending accounting for 56 percent of discretionary spending"
WTF……. If it's 56% of discretionary spending………. How much is it when off budget expenses like NATO and all the [SWEETHEART TREATIES and their overseas BASSES] are added..?? 76% ? 86%…??? how much did WE contribute to NATO and NATO allies and it is all off budget [treaty obligations] Just how much and what percent of total tax revenue DOES the EMPIRE CONSUME blowing stuff up paying rent on basses and keeping corrupt dictators loyal to our hegemony…??
Bob D
January 14th, 2011 at 8:59 am
Justin, I think you are misinterpreting the Statistics. The "David Frum" neocons are part of the 63% who want to see the troops reduced. He has said that is what he expects. You can be sure the reduction rate will have these neocons in charge and will be very very slow. By the time the reductions become substantial, say in 2020, I'm sure they will be able to find another country to invade. Look around, they have lots to choose from. I don't think they really want to "win". After all, Like Cochese said, dead enemies bring peace.
JLS
January 14th, 2011 at 9:04 am
"Would they be questioning the war if McCain/Palin were sending the troops to die in vain or is this simply an anti Obama tar baby action?"
Exactly! War was sacred and holy to everyone except the left during the Bush 2 years. Just exactly as teh antiwar movement fizzled out when Bush 3 was elected. But whatever their motives if they can turn conservatives against imperialism it will be a tremendous and as far as I know, unprecedented feat.
Montaigne
January 14th, 2011 at 9:15 am
Good point. And if we add foreign bribes? And all of CIA?
RickR30
January 14th, 2011 at 9:21 am
I think we still have a long way to go before we end our foreign misadventures. Neo-con dreck doesn't die that that easily, it shifts form. If the Tea Party movement is really going to take action, they have to be very careful not to let the infection in. But there are already neocon tea-partiers, like Gingrich.
The greatest danger though is that our leaders will concoct another 9/11. More brutal, more deadly, so that Americans will never again dare to vote against the death and destruction mafia. Obama has already shown that he has no leadership when it comes in to confronting his neocon masters. Biden is an enthusiastic puppet of israel. And below them are assorted dual citizens, israeli-firsters, and other salaried traitors. It wouldn't take a whole lot for all of them to agree to a bloody terrorist attack on US soil, supposedly co-sponsored by Iran, Pakistan, the Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Sarah Palin, anyone who reads Antiwar.com, any American who owns a gun, a car, travels via airplane, etc.
Those who stand for life, peace, and freedom still have a lot of work to do.
Generalissimo X
January 14th, 2011 at 9:49 am
great post, especially 2nd paragraph.
jeff_davis
January 14th, 2011 at 9:55 am
First, the dam is new: sturdy, indomitable, the rock of Gibralter, a feat of engineering celebrated, a monument for the ages. Then it ages: gets dusty, faded, rust on the pipes, mortar joints moldy on the surface. Then the first cracks form, invisible, unseen, unnoticed, ignored. Then a few emerge to view, scoffed at, painted over to still the worries of the tediously worrisome. Then a few more cracks, patched over quickly to preempt noises from the noisome. Then the cracks multiply more rapidly, and certain folks suggest perhaps something should be done, but they are quieted by the assurances of those who are "responsible". "Please, go shopping, we know about these things", they say, unconcerned and a little irritated. Then the cracks widen, accompanied by snapping sounds from deep within. "Yes, yes, some minor problems have come to our attention", the responsible ones say, "we're studying the matter, no reason for concern." Patches are quickly applied, but the cracks multiply, widen, the snapping increases, and a faint sound — the grinding of stone — is heard. "The damage is minor, insignificant really, the overall design is long proven", the responsible ones reassure, though their voices lack conviction and their faces seem tight and concerned. "The public safety is paramount. We have begun the necessary repairs and progress is being made. There is no cause for concern." Then,…
Is your home built high above the floodplain? Checked your lifeboat lately?
bozh
January 14th, 2011 at 9:55 am
if one wld study history for protreptic [for what it teaches] value– as of apodictic truth, there must be lesson in it smwhere– one wld draw the conclusion that all wars had been waged solely for land and everything in it or on it; its people wanted or not.
locus clasicus for such a war is 'jewish' war for palestina. the land had been conquered; its people r not wanted.
does anyone have a second thought about u.s. or 'jews' ever withdrawing from their respective conquests?
do people think that indian or 'jewish' warfare is over? do people think that u.s. is governed by polls?
of course, wars cost money. of course, soft or cursive wars go on and on! of course, soldiers die!
of course, americans fear losing its dominance! and, of course, their dreams r turning into nightmares!
but will they once again vote for just that? and approve of that with 99% of ballots cast?
ok! we'l see! tnx
johnc
January 14th, 2011 at 9:57 am
Why don't you start your own left-oriented website, if Raimondo is mucking things up as bad as you think. Perhaps the Koch's are slipping Justin Federal Reserve Notes under the table to promote the big lie that peace is conservative.
Montaigne
January 14th, 2011 at 10:05 am
"our leaders will concoct another 9/11. More brutal, more deadly, so that Americans will never again dare to vote against the death and destruction mafia"
And Obama stands to be a big historical CLOWN. Riding on bygone perceptions. He used – like any previous presidents – some PREVIOUSLY held convictions of the public. Always counting on the dumb and deaf and learning-impaired to secure his absolutely irrelevant presidency to master the PAST.
liberranter
January 14th, 2011 at 10:17 am
The greatest danger though is that our leaders will concoct another 9/11.
I'm not sure that last week's bungled assassination attempt in Tucson against Arizona Congresscreature Gabrielle Giffords wasn't a failed attempt to do this, albeit on a small scale, as part of a series of false-flag events designed to escalate the power grab.
jeff_davis
January 14th, 2011 at 10:18 am
Once and only once, in a piece written by someone reasonably reliable but certainly not infallible — don't remember who — the now-infamous white house aide was identified,… as Karl Rove. Since then all references have reverted to "the aide".
Having repeatedly heard of the incident, and repeatedly heard the source referred to anonymously, my curiosity had reached a fever pitch. So when finally I read that it was Karl Rove, I accepted the "fact" easily and with enthusiasm. But is it in fact true?
Well, I still accept it, but I'd like to see some confirmation. Ron Suskind won't tell — protecting his sources. Anyone out there able to confirm?
It may be that the person who reported that it was KR, heard it from Suskind in a moment of inadvertence.
Personally, I think it important that Karl Rove be "credited" with the now-infamous statement if indeed he was the person who said it.
muggles
January 14th, 2011 at 10:19 am
Excellent column as usual. This emerging split in the pro war conservative consensus is being reflected in the upcoming CPAC conference. This event, the major Beltway conservative ho-down, has just seen social conservatives and neocons (Heritage Foundation) pull their participation and start their own rump CPAC event (Values Voters Conference) this fall.
While news accounts attribute the walkout to inclusion of gay Republicans, it is also clear that the pro war, pro military wing is part of this split as well. Even conservatives now get the fact that you can't have "guns and butter" when you have to buy the butter with your Chinese Express card.
Bill
January 14th, 2011 at 10:26 am
I don't see anybody postulating this idea:
The war will not end with either party in control. Whether neocons, conservatives, libertarians, Obama liberals, they are all incapable of standing up to the military and the status quo. The war will only end when forces beyond their control force an end…when they run out of money, hyperinflation, inability to sell treasuries, currency collapse, massive social unrest.
epppie
January 14th, 2011 at 11:47 am
I think conservatives need to beware such antiwar posturing on the Right. We on the Left have seen where this leads. Once the party in power changes, the party out of power starts calling for less war and the party in power starts calling for blood.
RickR30
January 14th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Hard to say that the war will not end since true conservatives and libertarians haven't been in power for a while.
Unfortunately, the money issue is not a problem for the war party- they can always get goldman-harvard mobsters in the Fed print more.
But there have to be more outside forces as you say- Afghans resisting more, greater misery and poverty in America, the rest of the world united against the US, China not buying US debt any longer.
Generalissimo X
January 14th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
agreed. if not a false flag, its apparent that they are maximizing the event for their benefit. the major points of the msm are that we're all to blame and that we need to lessen dissent as sometimes people go too far. not to mention the anti-gun propaganda etc. another lone gunman lunatic is the reason we should all sacrifice our liberty. obama's soviet style sports stadium rally was nothing but an ode to collectivism and becoming slaves to the state.
RickR30
January 14th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
Baruch Obama is already a clown, an empty suit, a political and historical non-entity. His only accomplishment: being half-black. Entirely a media creation that sold him as a cosmic event, he turned out to be a Bush who loves abortion and homosexuals.
emsnews
January 14th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
I do have my own news site, http://emsnews.wordpress.com
And yes, anyone can come there and argue with me just as I come here to do this same thing.
emsnews
January 14th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
What the libertarians call 'the left' is actually the corporate center that trends very slightly to the liberal side. They always studiously ignore the real left which has been for my entire life, all 60 years of it, totally, completely antiwar. Including, very significantly, antiwar with Israel's wars, too.
The libertarians are for INTERNAL warfare, namely, we should all own many guns and shoot them at home. The far right wants to refight the war that was waged over slavery and have the South win this time around.
GradyWilson
January 14th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
johnc,
my objection is that this site pretends to welcome (especially during funding drives) all from across the political spectrum who want to unite as an "antiwar" faction when the truth is that from Justin down to lowly ignorant posters like 'Johnny in Wi' this site advocates nothing but hatred towards the left.
It is arrogant and deceitful to call a site "ANTIWAR.COM" – pretending to speak for all antiwar voices while propagating such a very far right agenda. You're probably right about the Koch's. Notice Justin did write a whole column defending them and admitted to being in their employ previously.
Carpenter13
January 14th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
David Frum and Max Boot, etc – what do these people have in common? They are all Zionists. These are the people who control conservative media today, "excommunicating" real conservative Americans. David Frum even admits in his autobiography that he was a LIBERAL when he was contacted by Paul Wolfowitz, another Zionist, and offered to write speeches for the kept president. "But I'm a liberal," Frum said, "I don't subscribe to conservative views." "That's all right," Wolfowitz replied, "The important thing is to be onboard on Israeli policy." Not the exact words, but that's what Frum himself writes.
GradyWilson
January 14th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
That's why I find it so pathetic that Justin himself is leading the parade of "The Conservative Awakening" just because a couple of righties (mostly unelected) have called for 'a debate' about the obviously futile and very unpopular Afghan war. He is completely exposing himself as a very eager useful idiot for the GOP. Its kinda depressing. Libertarians like him, along with non Democrat lefties, helped convince me that being anti-war and Democrat do not go together. Now he's pretending the anti-war way is through the GOP after he's been preaching for years that the US foreign policy is a bi-partisan endeavor? Libertarians are frauds – just a faction within the GOP – not a true opposition to it.
gary
January 14th, 2011 at 3:44 pm
when you read frum,boot,norquist you think that they are wizened old conservatives with long life experiece and wisdom talking about war and pholophy….when you see them you realize that these guys are those young neocons you met in college the ones that ranted on about the pot smoking hippies that got all thegoodlooking girls while they plotted to take over the student council..they are the young college republicans that everybody mocked behind there backs for the dark suits and wingtip shoes…they confuse education for wisdom and you know that they never have been in a foxhole and never will be
amazed
January 14th, 2011 at 5:39 pm
wow, you wrote an article without gushing over wikileaks or julian assange – not even once, AMAZING!
jackbootstate
January 14th, 2011 at 9:20 pm
"…Apparently, Grover wants to pull out of Afghanistan as a money-saving measure — a line of argument, which if followed to its natural conclusion, should also have led us to pull out of World War II while Hitler or Tojo were still in power or to end the Civil War while Jefferson Davis still ruled the South."
If you’re a neocon, it’s always 1939 — or 1862…."
The Civil War and World War II are the most convenient wars of them all in our history to join at the hip with moral agency. Which makes them the two wars in American history I despise the most. It's just so taken for grant it that they were fought first and foremost to abolish slavery and end the Holocaust that one can use them to apply to a situation completely unlike either one of them. Davis and Hilter led governments that were quite capable of suriving on their own, and were overthrown by outside intervention. Meanwhile, the puppet regime Washington has propped up in Afghanistan would probably have a shorter life span than the one in Saigon did, if cut loose from Washington's umbilical cord.
AngelaKeaton
January 14th, 2011 at 10:20 pm
Grady,
You have a straight face on as you right that? Really?
Seriously, could you straighten out and focus long enough to convince people mass murder is wrong? Is that too much to ask?
Peace,
Keaton.
Good Luck
January 14th, 2011 at 10:55 pm
GOP ousts Steele, picks Priebus to lead party,
GradyWilson
January 15th, 2011 at 5:45 am
Angela,
Can you staighten out and focus long enough to acknowledge that Justin's GOP leads the way in supporting mass murder across the globe and a few Republicans and pundits saying "maybe we should have a discussion" about the highly unpopular Afghan War is by no means a "Conservative Awakening" challenging US foreign policy of mass murder?
Do you ever offer anything besides unprovoked ad hominems and sarcasm? You are no advocate of 'peace' by supporing the GOP/TeaParty.
Truth,
Grady
RED_DAVE
January 15th, 2011 at 6:22 am
Justin, next time you see one of your old math teachers, ask for your money back because you can't add.
24% of conservatives "believe we should continue to provide the current level of troops to properly execute the war."
39% believe we can reduce the troop lelevels but continue to fight the war effectively.
That means that a whopping 63% of all conservatives believe we should continue the current policy of mass murder. And it's interesting that 65% of Teabaggers hold the same set of opinions. And non-Teabagging conservatives the figure is 61%. It is reasonable to conclude that there is a consensus among conservatives that the killing should go on.
They'd just like it a little cheaper.
AngelaKeaton
January 15th, 2011 at 8:58 am
Grady,
That's the best you got, eh?
To the others,
Please stop reporting Grady's comments. The time it takes for me to read them takes away from time I need to do actual work for peace.
Angela
Bianca
January 15th, 2011 at 9:24 am
Yes, this is the way to put the foot down. Not one penny from trust funds, fully funded by the taxpayers for those purposes. The problem is, many are still under impression that that money can be stolen. Well, another solution is: take equally from ALL TRUST FUNDS. All private trust funds will have to be cut by the equivalent amount. After all, TAXPAYER bailed out financial insitutions, and with it, all trust funds. They are no more private property then our social security. When Rockefellers and Morgans, Goldmans and others face the same cuts, we may have a more reasonable discussion.
David K. Meller
January 15th, 2011 at 7:38 pm
A very interesting article, and I certainly hope that there is something to it in the next two years, but I can't avoid wondering if at least some of this "antiwar" fervor on the right is (like the criticism of President Clinton making a mess of Bosnia and Kosovo) merely a spiteful maneuver to attack President Obama.
While motivation and intention don't alter facts, nevertheless, an opposition to war and imperialism would be a lot stronger if it is grounded in sound moral and practical considerations, than if it has to rely on mere political bias. Some of this might be merely anger or disappointment at the current leadership LOSING the wars in question, rather than re-examining the fundamentals of our foreign and military policy.
emsnews
January 16th, 2011 at 3:35 am
There is no 'work for peace' if it doesn't examine the financial underpinnings of all wars. The very roots of imperialism are economic. The US thrived when it grew its empire up to the point of saturation which was reached during the Vietnam War. Since then, our global economic power has been in full and now rapid decline.
Examining why this is happening is hyper-important since 'peace' will not happen if our dying empire, starved of taxes, running huge deficits both in trade and government financing, falls suddenly into the abyss. Libertarians may think this is a good thing. But I don't. Why?
Because there will be absolutely no peace at all here. There will be civil war. And the roots of this will be very much economic. The sudden collapse of our entire social services system will not mean everyone will have a glorious, fun time. It will mean our cities will burn, crime will surge, there will be prison uprisings and race/religious warfare as well as persecution of minorities and Mexico's chaos will be our own chaos. No fun at all.
The 'sink or swim' attitude of libertarians will be cruelly exposed and anyone endorsing this will be hated by the enraged masses who will demand some form of socialism even if it is fascist or communist.
Montaigne
January 16th, 2011 at 3:53 am
Perhaps this is what the shift is all about: Someone senses, this issue might win votes from the opponents, so THEREFORE they are giving voice. And when another thing, like petro prices moves voters, then it's all about that one. For a limited period. And only based on the "conviction" of the importance of spin.
RobertB
January 16th, 2011 at 8:58 am
That's because commentary is usually in direct proportion to current news activity on any particular subject. Should Assange be extradited or kidnapped to the US, I'm sure it will receive due attention.
GradyIsATurd
January 17th, 2011 at 3:27 pm
The Left would rather the troops come back home and help enforce socialism on us all…
GradyWilson
January 19th, 2011 at 4:13 am
Montaigne.
Tell me how exactly this so called "awakening" has manifested itself. Is there anything tangible to rest this "awakening" argument on except for the words a few righties?
GradyWilson
January 19th, 2011 at 4:19 am
"That's the best you got, eh?"- full of piss and vinegar Angela
Unlike you I'm really not looking to get into back and forth personal attacks. You might try to at least make a substantive political commentary considering that this is a political forum which boasts its openness to all across the political spectrum.
We are brothers and sistesr united against war aren't we?
Peace,
Grady
GradyWilson
January 19th, 2011 at 4:24 am
"a whopping 63% of all conservatives believe we should continue the current policy of mass murder" – R_D
Another inconvenient truth. But don't let the facts get in the way of Justin's "AWAKENING" lollapalooza.
RED_DAVE
January 22nd, 2011 at 2:04 pm
Just to hammer in the nail, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the Teabaggers, who are now running the Republican Party, are in any way, shape or form opposed to the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.