One of the principal arguments of advocacy journalists in the 1990s was that the "international community" had a duty to intervene in the Bosnian war to save the "multicultural" government in Sarajevo from the ethnically exclusive Serbs and Croats. This was a myth; the regime in Sarajevo was overwhelmingly Muslim, and led by an internationally recognized theorist of Islamic revolution. But it was a myth the nascent American Empire found convenient, and built into the foundation of the 1995 Dayton peace agreement.
Although Bosnia has historically been a home of Orthodox and Catholic Christians, Muslims and Jews, these communities never lived together, but rather side by side. They began intermixing only in the secular, socialist Yugoslavia, following WW2. As novelist and commentator Muhrem Bazdulj noted on October 19, on the pages of the Sarajevo daily Oslobodjenje, prior to the 1990s conflict the communities in Bosnia had their distinctions, but were actually amazingly mono-cultural: they spoke what they considered the same language, and weren’t segregated.
If multiculturalism means parallel ghettoes, Bazdulj argues, then Bosnia today truly is multi-cultural. People live side by side, and not very happily. It is this concept that German Chancellor Angela Merkel rightly declared a failure. "Of all the ‘multis’ in vogue," wrote Bazdulj, "only the multivitamins remain."
A Rotten Compromise
Merkel’s condemnation of multiculturalism, in remarks to a party conference last weekend, was somewhat unexpected. Just last month, Merkel had joined the attacks on Thilo Sarazzin, a banking official who criticized Germany’s immigration policies. Germany Abolishes Herself, his controversial bestseller, argued that the failure to assimilate the overwhelmingly Muslim immigrants was threatening the immediate future of Germany. Sarazzin was hounded out of his job and kicked out of his party (the Social Democrats), but his arguments appear to have hit a mark.
Unlike, for example, the UK or France – whose immigrant populations came from the former colonies – Germany’s immigrants were a legacy of the "guest worker" program implemented after WW2 to make up for labor shortages caused by wartime casualties. Since these contractors weren’t supposed to stay, or bring their families along, there was no strategy or policy to assimilate them. This worked well until the 1970s, when the Turkish laborers began to bring in their families and ask for asylum, following a military coup in Ankara. Many former Yugoslavs did the same in the 1990s. With any discussion of the German identity under the cloud of Hitler and the Holocaust, the government in Bonn resorted to multiculturalism: in exchange for loyalty to the German state, the Turks were not required to assimilate into the German society. The result was a parallel Turkish society, which in some instances even embraced the militant manifestations of Islam.
Twilight of the Welfare State
Much of the critical work concerning Europe’s immigration woes has focused on the salient fact that Muslim immigrants do not appear willing or able to peacefully coexist with Europeans’ secular humanism. Politics of guilt, political correctness, cultural and political Marxism have all combined to preclude any debate as to why an Islamic takeover of, say, France, would be a bad thing. Politicians in Sweden are on the record as planning for the day when Swedes become a minority in their own country.
Another part of the puzzle, however, seems to have gone unnoticed. Namely, western Europeans love their welfare states. A concept originally developed in 19th-century Prussia, the welfare state manages the lives of its subjects from cradle to grave, in exchange for much of their income and service to the government. The system is capable of functioning, for a while, in societies where the populace has a stronger sense of duty than of entitlement. When entitlement wins out, however, the welfare state quickly becomes an unsustainable parasitic organism, wherein the indolent many live at the expense of the productive few. Temporary boosts to the productive populace through importation of immigrants tend to exacerbate the problem in the long run, as immigrants’ sense of entitlement quickly overwhelms any sense of duty (if one exists in the first place), and they become dependents of the state.
For the past ten days, millions of people have taken to the streets in France, disrupting traffic, business, fuel deliveries and flights to protest President Sarkozy’s proposed pension reform. The stopgap solution aimed at salvaging France’s exhausted treasury would raise the retirement age from 60 to 62.
Under Tony Blair’s Labor government, the UK expanded its welfare state dramatically. Unable to support it much longer, the Cameron-Clegg government is radically trimming the budget, including major cuts to Britain’s armed forces.
Unlike Berlin, Paris and London have yet to address their immigration problem. Without that, their austerity efforts won’t amount to much. Soon, Europeans will have to face the stark reality. They can have a welfare state, or open immigration with multiculturalism – but not both.
Germany Rising?
Looming over it all is the question of whether the transnational institutions such as the EU and NATO will survive for much longer. The EU has been sorely tested by the 2008 financial crisis, and the resulting need to bail out Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland. As Germany was called upon for much of the bailout, many hard-working Germans feel like the proverbial ant beset by European grasshoppers.
When NATO was established in 1949, a British ambassador described its purpose thus: "Keep the Americans in, Russians out, and Germans down." The Soviet Union is long gone, the Americans can’t afford to stay in, and the Germans are increasingly reluctant to stay down.
The Balkans wars of the 1990s went a long way in freeing Germany from the stigma of WW2. The guilt and shame of the Holocaust were projected onto the Serbs, demonized in the German press as genocidal aggressors. Very few people noticed or cared when the Bundeswehr was deployed outside of Germany for the first time since 1945. Deployed to Bosnia as peacekeepers, by 1999 they were in Kosovo as occupation troops, while the Luftwaffe flew bombing missions over Serbia as part of NATO’s Operation Allied Force.
Though presented as a magnificent success for NATO, the Kosovo operation actually revealed the alliance’s limitations and shortcomings. Behind the victory celebrations was the embarrassing fact that NATO didn’t actually win the 78-day conflict by force of arms, but by diplomatic deceit. More to the point, the conflict demonstrated that only Americans had the capability to conduct the full spectrum of military operations; other NATO members were able to serve as auxiliaries at best. The Alliance hasn’t done much since, as evidenced by its symbolic presence in Afghanistan and refusal to take part in Bush the Lesser’s Iraq adventure.
Kanzlerin Merkel now talks of a need for immigrants to adopt a German identity. Her predecessor, Gerhard Shroeder, went on to work with the Russians on building a major pipeline through the Baltic Sea, over American objections. Merkel herself met with France’s Sarkozy and Russia’s Medvedev earlier this week, hinting at a new power axis emerging in Europe, beyond the traditional confines of NATO and the EU.
If This Goes On…
Against this background, EU’s top official, Herman van Rompuy, came to Sarajevo on Wednesday to hector the Bosnian politicians on the need for "reforms." Bosnia, said van Rompuy, needs to be "one country, speaking with one voice," before it is allowed to join the illustrious clubs headquartered in Brussels – EU and NATO. Yet such a Bosnia is no more possible than European welfare states with an ever-shrinking productive base.
Over the past 20 years or so, Bosnia has been a laboratory for nation-builders, interventionists, humanitarians, and activists the world over. They have tried every dogma and ideology dear to their hearts, from tribal democracy to multiculturalism and welfare statism. All have failed.
Today, Bosnia’s communities are divided as never before, poverty and crime are widespread, and thousands of people pay to see faith healer Mekki Tourabi, having exhausted all other avenues of improving their lot.
The question now is what will happen when Britain and France run out of money, the immigrants in Germany refuse to assimilate, and Mr. Tourabi’s hand-waving fails to accomplish anything. One thing is certain, though – things cannot go on like this for much longer.
Read more by Nebojsa Malic
- The Serbian Job – May 18th, 2012
- Tyranny of Good Intentions – May 3rd, 2012
- Between Hope and Despair – April 20th, 2012
- Hunger Games – March 29th, 2012
- Reality Rift – March 9th, 2012





andy
October 22nd, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Muslim immigration to Europe has and will be the greatest mistake in the continent's history. The treasonous elites have betrayed their own people and sowed the seeds of their own ruin.
Kosova
October 22nd, 2010 at 11:32 pm
Germany of 1999 is not the same Germany as that of 1939-45. Germany in 1999 acted to stop a Holocaust from being carried out by Serbs.
john
October 23rd, 2010 at 3:18 am
Multiculturalism was not introduced to Europe by the Muslims, it was introduced by the Europeans to Muslim ntations when the Europeans invaded to steal land and resources. Now the tables are turning and those Euopeans are abosorbing the impact and consequence of the societies and cultures that they deestroyed. In a sense the riches that the Europeans stole are being returned to the rightful owners in the form of welfare programs.
Jota
October 23rd, 2010 at 5:39 am
Sarkozy and his rich allies are not going to create a Capitalistic society that creates jobs for all of the folks who need them but make it much easier for multi-national companies to use France and all of the other western countries as bases to export job destroying technologies and computerized systems to enhance the profits of the wealthy and exploit third world labor.The "productive few" is a myth,they are just the few who are lucky enough to get a job running these technologies.If a society can't provide enough jobs for the people and will not offer life lines of support to the jobless then it is going to have to spend a lot of resources to keep the lid on social unrest.There is not free lunch,the society will pay one way or another.
Rasputin
October 23rd, 2010 at 5:46 am
"To stop a Holocaust from being carried out"? At least get your propaganda straight. It supposedly was a Holocaust.
Montaigne
October 23rd, 2010 at 6:57 am
A well thought-out analysis of Europe. A bravo to the author!
bozh
October 23rd, 2010 at 8:30 am
Bosnia may be understood at least a litlte better if it, as miscegenational region just like switzerland, is compared with the latter.
Alas, not a single socialist or asocialist, columnist or politico had done this, as far as i know, to date.
The fact that switzerland was not surrounded by enemies, and bosnia had been for at least a century, is always omitted.
Naturally if serbs or croats want to conquer bosnia, it's three cultish communities wld also become enemies.
Serbia attacked bosnia or, rather bosniaks and croats in late '92, i believe. By doing that, it in effect, abandoned croatian serbs, [?intentionally; to get rid of the burden?].
Croats or croatia atacked bosniaks in '93.
In early '94, West headed by US does a volte face. It abandons its support for greater serbia and seeing a golden opportunity to get a strong foothold on kosovo also, clinton stops the war between bosniaks and croats.
And even catholic church was strongly against that war. Possibly not basing objection on any principle but because the losers at that time were croats.
Of course, US also never changes its mind on any principle; it changed its stance because they saw a gold mine in the balkans and a way to limit or eliminate SU influence on balkans.
As for kosovo, it had never ever been legally or morally serb. Why? because illyrians, ancestors of albanians never ever left kosovo in which they resided for ca, 2.5kyrs.
Serbs may have conquered or migrated to kosovo; however, if conquered, do the losers have to honor the conquest for an eternity?
I recall saying '92 to a Veliko-serb [veliko=great] that serbia wld eventually lose even kosovo let alone serb enclaves in croatia.
It came to pass.
Pribicevic, self a chetnik, had warned serbs not to tangle with croats. However, some of them avowed: Serbia or death.
And now serbs once again lament. We never wanted these people in croatia. But austria did! It shld be noted that at one time hungary entirely disappeared; of croatia there was only remnants of remnants left.
It had been wallachs, romanians, magyars, poles, czhechs, slovaks, slovenes, germans, austrians, and croats who fought turks for at least two centuries; losing battle after battle; their people taken away as captives to turkey.
Only after failed siege of vienna in 1668, did we finally start to push ottomans out; thus, contributing to emancipation of serbia also.
Serbia, on the other hand, had been the most peaceful region in all of europe for four hundred yrs. And look how it thanked us. tnx
bozh
October 23rd, 2010 at 8:55 am
It shld be noted that croatians are not an ethnos but an admixture of peoples. Croatian regions were not empty as palestina 'had' been. It, too, was inhabited by god knows what people; probably illyrians, goths, gauls, avars, romams.
Even as late as 13th century walled towns along the adriatic were not controlled by croats, but by bysantium, the eastern roman empire.
Eventually, croats were in possession of the entire littoral croatia; later abandoned to italy by ustashe as payback to italy for allowing ustashe to annex entire bosnia.
So much for unity of croats and us dalmatians being as kroatisch as some bosnians. We are well-mixed up! tnx
blowback
October 23rd, 2010 at 10:22 am
"Under Tony Blair’s Labor government, the UK expanded its welfare state dramatically. Unable to support it much longer, the Cameron-Clegg government is radically trimming the budget, including major cuts to Britain’s armed forces."
Yes, Blair did expand our welfare state but not dramatically and not effectively or efficiently, and no, the Cameron-Clegg cuts are not about trimming the budget because we can't support the welfare state much longer, they are about an idealogical obsession that conservatives have about reducing the size of the state. If you look at the quango's that were dismantled recently, that was not about improving the lot of the average Brit, is was all about increasing the wealth of the elite.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 23rd, 2010 at 11:04 am
A single proof that Albanians descend from Illyrians has yet to be unearthed. If there was an Illyrian civilisation in Kosovo, there would be traces of it, wouldn'it? On the other hand, the Albanian language seems to be related to some Caucasian languages…
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 23rd, 2010 at 11:08 am
Immigration is a symptom rather than a cause. The welfare state makes people unproductive. Sarkozy does not want to ditch the welfare state, he wants to restrict it to a few chosen, bankers and corporatists at the expense of those who already barely make ends meet. In short, he wants the poor to pay for the rich, we're much closer to feudalism than to capitalism here. Sarkozy is the French version of a neocon. If he had been president, France would be in Iraq.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 23rd, 2010 at 11:32 am
Twenty minutes and already two "thumbs down". The Albanian brigade is on the watch.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 23rd, 2010 at 11:32 am
Oops!
andy
October 23rd, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Your right. Its not the same Germany. Its flooded with foreigners.
andy
October 23rd, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Such nonsense! The muslims conquered the Iberian peninsula for seven centuries. They enslaved the peoples of the Balkans for 500 years. The Barbary pirates enslaved millions of Europeans. Islam drew first blood.
andy
October 23rd, 2010 at 12:25 pm
I suspect you are right.
bozh
October 23rd, 2010 at 12:59 pm
I do not think seniority rights is sole [if at all] consideration for serbo-albanian conflict. It cannot make a difference whether albanians are descedants of illyrians solely, largely or of a mixture or people which inhabited balkans fro at least 2.5 k yrs.
Nor do u need to offer any evidence let alone proof that kosovo was empty as we slavs arrived in balkan mid-seventh c.
What we do know that kosovo is 90& albanian. it makes not a bit difference when/if they arrived to kosovo.
We only need to consider whether kosovo had been taken from serbs by war. Serb wld be in that case justified in wanting to keep it; however, not justified in unilaterally abrogating kosovo autonomy and establishing a police state there.
As 'jews', so the arabs and serbs offer only casuistry and not a single causative factor or fact for behaving towards their captives as they do: oppressively and unjustly.
It shld be noted [this is related to serbs also] kurds of iraq only wanted an autonomy; however, arabs wld not grant them one.
Some serbs in croatia wanted only separation! In bosnia, they wanted 50%+ bosnia and annexed to serbia, but cleansed of croats and bosniaks.
Regarding the notion that some people 'ARE' lazy, stupid, this represents one the greatest lies ever told and usually or always told by clergy and 'noble' class; who in fact never ever worked; living solely from labors of 'lazy', 'uneducated' peasants.
In add'n it is not the 'nobility' which produces geniuses to which we owe all or much knowledge but all of the people.
Often it takes ten mn people to produce one and not just one percent of parasitic class of life.
Why do not the swiss think like that? And look at their governance! This what people shld seriously study and not propagate antihuman ideas and wars.
In short, i affirm that we were always ok, we are ok now, and we always will be ok. All we have to do is stop listening to clergy and 'nobles'! tnx
gary
October 23rd, 2010 at 1:06 pm
"the 78 day conflict was not won by force of arms but by diplomatic deciet" "stabbed in the back"..not that sorry excuse again..the serbs were braught to the negotiating table when those thugs ,sorry paramilitaries finally got a taste of the same heavy guns they had been using on the hapless muslims..those brave warriors cried uncle as soon as the playing field was leveled.
andy
October 23rd, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Wow. Are you misinformed. In any case it was none of America's business at all.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 23rd, 2010 at 2:44 pm
And welfare=warfare. The snake bites its tail.
paleo
October 23rd, 2010 at 10:16 pm
If only. The thugs were untouched, the army barely scathed, and it was civilians in Belgrade and other parts that were being killed that brought an end to the conflict.
NATO intentionally murdered Serbian civilians hundreds of miles away from Kosovo allegedly because they wanted to save Kosovo Albanians from being murdered. These "victims" in turn, were (and are) conducting ethnic cleansing against non-Albanians in Kosovo so as to create Albania No. 2.
You don't know anything about the recent history of the Balkans, so I suggest you shut up and read what informed people have to say.
camus10
October 24th, 2010 at 12:24 am
amazed at the terms used to define the various ethnicity. Do ethnic groups subscribe to such rigid interests based on nationality.
Is the phenomenon of a secular modern european dead. Are there any EU schools who are fostering secular values. Are all serbs aggressive, are all croats seeking domination based on a catholic identity. Do modern Kosovans recognize a secular respect for serb theologic attachment to Kosovo. These seem extreme caricatures.
I wonder if we are talking of breeds of sheep and horses as ethnic groups, or an accomodating humanity able to cross over and build bridges of coexistence.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 24th, 2010 at 1:43 am
Kosovo was taken away by ethnic cleansing prior to whatever happened in the nineties of the last century.
Back in 1987, about a month and a half before Milosevic took power in Serbia, Serbian administration sent me to Kosovo to unearth a piece of paper proving my father's nationality and therefore mine. I found out that my father, though born there, had been erased from the books and when I got there, the only idea I had in mind was how to get out unharmed. Albanian youth were already then loaded with hatred for anyone or anything Serb. I suffered insults, provocation, even physical contact just short of outright aggression. Only because I was Serb.
So please, give me a break with your grandstanding "tolerance".
Bianca
October 24th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
This is the first article by Nebojsa that dissapoints. What "secular humanism"? For Nebojsa to use the words ENTITLEMENT and WELLFARE state, is amazing. What "entitlements"? People in France and elsewhere have invested into their retirement and other benefits, and this is their due. What was held back from the salaries for various fonds — belongs to the owner. Politicans are not lords to bestow on the gratefull public the "entitlements". If this is the case, all private pension funds, all private trust funds are equally entitlements, and the land then belongs to the new sovereign, the new oligarchy. Bank-owning oligarchs have robbed most western countries, and politicians want to "fix" this at the expense of the public at large? Who do they think they are? Immigration issue is a mere distraction. Europe was NEVER tolerant. Angela is right — European multiculturalism is dead. And good ridance. But a Turkish national should be allowed to become GERMAN, without hyphenation. She may return Kosovo to Serbia, with the message to Albanians to learn Serbian.
PS. Bosnia now has longer life expectancy then US.
bozh
October 24th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
My post also had been erased. I forgot what i all said in that post; however, remember an astounding truth: It does not matter a whit whether serbs found kosovo empty and settled there or whether kosovars were expelled thereafter or not.
And whether later at any time they returned to kosovo or not! Or whatever! The facts seen with naked eye that 90% of kosovars are ethniclty albanian and mostly muslim and catholic justifies self rule by them!
It also makes no iota of diff if their leaders are drug dealers, corrupt, murderous or not– one shld never inflict collective punishment.
Similarly nato/US had no legal or moral right to punish a people like pashtuns or iraqis, regardless what crimes their 'leaders' [read: criminal minds just like ones in US] may have committed.
AntiWar shld be ashamed of itself for having a chetnik as a contributor but not an ustasha or kosovan. And erases a post like mine who brought essential facts about serbo-kosovan conflict.
Let's see? Will this, too, be deleted? i
Rad Vuckov
October 24th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
We know where you come from, Also, what are you doing here?
As to call a chetnik the author is inappropriate. 'Za dom spremni
Bozho! Stay home.
Rad Vuckov
October 24th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Do you Bozho allow that Krayina Serbs should stay in Croatia and
have their autonomy as you advocate for the Kosovo Albanians?
At least they contributed greatly that today Croatia after
thousand years have their independent country.
bozh
October 24th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
First of all one needs to chew on these facts: Serbs, about 700k of them, are strewn all over croatia; kosovars are not. As noted, they comprise about 90% of kosovo pop. However, chetniks never wanted any kind of autonomy.
Serbs are also recent comers to croatia; historians assert that illyrians arrived in thebalkans 2.5k yrs.
So it does seem, that serbs needed a different autonomy than albanians. Of course, they shld have had one.
One may note a fact of some import: chetniks never wanted to hold a referendum on joining serbia nor announced the fact that they had to wage war, espulsion, and murder.
They did not because, most serbs wld have not wanted to join serbiia.
Thus the artifice of naming serb numerous enclaves "krajina". Everybody in the balkans knew that such geographic region never existed.
The idea was to present to unwary observers that ther was this country called krajina; inhabited by serbs only and being persecuted, all they wanted was their country back.
The idea worked brilliantly or seemed to among all fascists and socialists in canada and US.
But to no avail– experts in the west knew the situation well.
And i know that many serbs fought chetniks as well. And even milosevic realized his blunder.
At karadjordjevo he made a secret deal with tudjman; probably involving serb help for croats in fighting bosniaks, but giving up on serbs of croatia.
As for nebojsha, he often criticizes kosovars and croats, but not vele-serbs. In any case, it is unjust to have such serb on antiwar; spreading lies or half-truths and a croat is not invited to do the same or better. tnx
bozh
October 24th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
My post also had been erased. I forgot what i all said in that post
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 24th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Well, I agree with you on almost everything except… Turks laid siege on Vienna. We may detest them but Germans never laid siege on any Turkish city. And I remember a friend from Cameroon who preferred the German as colonisers to the French or the English.
Let's not make hasty judgements. I believe Angela is wrong. People were instilled wrong beliefs and expectations about cultural inter-mingling . I believe that every one, besides background, has the right to choose his or her destiny. Hearing the same politicians who advocated multi-ethnicity now rant about it makes me sick.
Btw, for anecdote, a Serb merchant saved Vienna from Ottoman siege and initiated European addiction to coffee. Bosnia has healthier food than the US. Maybe that explains life expectation matters.
bozh
October 24th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
I see that post i thought was erased is here. Did i missed it or it had been deleted and restored aftre my complaint? I can't be sure. I did look for it at least 4 times. tnx
MvGuy
October 24th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
YOU are CORRECT Bianca…. The neocon Sars-crazy AKA as President wants to keep [and improve] the nukes…….. But they "can't afford " to keep their contract with the workers………… It will happin in the U.S. too….. Gotta raise the Social Security retirement age…. P.S .. Here is TWO BILLION for PAKISTAN…………… Suckers…..!!!!!.
MvGuy
October 24th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
Too much censorshit being practiced here!!!!! And Politicai [empire centric] Correctness too……… Unless the comments are vulgar, Racist or totally crazy….. "People from the planet of Uranus have taken control"… E.G.— The "Administrator" is deleting posts that are only contrary opinions…. WTF… Stop interfereng in the marketplace of ideas!!! Don't delete posts you don't like, rebut them with citations to disprove the offensive [to you] allegations. Let's be grown ups here, not temper tantrum adolescents,,,!!!!!
MvGuy
October 24th, 2010 at 7:22 pm
What about the crusades…??
MvGuy
October 24th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
I find bozh's comments very interesting.. I am no expert on the Balkans… Please add to the conversation, not subtract… I was there in Yogoslavia in 1971… Split, Debrovnick, "Titograd"… Hitchiking and Sleeping on the ground in the beautiful pine forests to save money…. Drinking with them at night, breaking & plates ,…..I met them, talked to them and drank with them… They were intelligent, honest and antiwar [Vietnam]! I had no idea of the resentment, the hate and the ethnic strife…. My wife who is Czeck saw the trainwreck coming……….. Wasn't Madelain Albright a Czeck too..??? The 5OO,OOO dead children was "worth It" woman ….. Secretary of genocide [State?] under Carter..?? or was it Biush 1…??? ……. You get the idea I hope, The USA is hopeless…. = death & genocide…!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rad Vuckov
October 24th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
Krajina never existed ? How about 'Military Frontier' at and around
bordering of Austria-Hungary with Turkey occupied lands as defense.
Please read reputable history for the facts instead of propaganda
pamphlets. The frontiersmen were posted there to defend land of
the Austro-Hungary. Most of Croats were taken to upper lands with their feudal masters. Resentment was that these Serbs were free
soldiers and Christian Eastern-Orthodox. Learn of these things and
you may even learn that you may be also ex-Serb forcibly converted to Catholicism and became a Croat and we all know about converts ……..
As for the Serbs in Croatia never asked for the autonomy? Also false.
Prior to war starting there was demand for the CULTURAL AUTONOMY
with places with majority of Serbian population. All people on the list for t
proposed cultural autonomy were arrested and put in first camp of the
sort (remember Jasenovac etc. ?). This was the signal that 'good old
time of NDH are back'. All above is well documented and not only
in Serb sources. Since you are totally ignorant I will not spent my
time with you. For change read some reputable material on the
subject you would like/dare to discuss.
bob35983
October 24th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
If you intend to use history as the basis of an argument, at least get your facts straight.
the crusades were launched centuries AFTER the rise of Islam.
Islam conquered Christian North Africa, Syria, etc.. Persia was (Zoroastrian?) at time of it's capture.
The rise of Islam was facilitated by the void created with the constant and societal exhaustive warfare between Christian Byzantium (Rome) and Persia.
Bianca
October 24th, 2010 at 9:37 pm
Yes, Turks laid siege to Vienna, and Austrians laid siege to more places then I can squeeze into this comment, and Germans… The lousy economy is kicking in old, intolerant Europe. Europe that is more comfortable with patronizing love of other cultures and peoples, provided they are the munificent and superior. Old Bosnia was a better place to live once upon a time. Cultures had their own life, and lived it to the fullest. But there were no ghethos. People lived where they liked. That changed with european notion of multiculturalism, where cultures remain parallel worlds. That leads to secessionism or ghetos. Too bad Germany did not get it when she funded along with George Soros the PARALLEL social institutions in Kosovo, so that Albanian speaking minority could have their own social services, health care and education at public expense.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 25th, 2010 at 12:40 am
For all practical purposes, Austrians are… Germans. As for cultures remaining parallel words, I've grown up in a Paris ghetto suburb. The French, and Europeans in general, got progressively pushed out of it by immigrant population, because they didn't fit in the landscape any more. The intolerant in that case were more the newcomers than the natives. One might say, they got what they deserved because they colonised foreign countries. The point is that no nation in the world has a clean record when it comes to taking away other people's territory, and usually ordinary people don't get asked when governments go on rampage.
As for Kosovo, the first responsible for its loss are Serbian communists, not the Germans, not Vatican, not the US.
GradyWilson
October 25th, 2010 at 5:08 am
Malic sounds like a fascist.
bozh
October 25th, 2010 at 10:49 am
Rad u omitted the fact that i said that SOME serbs never wanted any kind of autonomy.
These were able to take by war, murder, and with help of serb army about one third of croatia.
It seems that possibly 80% of serbs have not participated in the murder of croats and expulsion of about 400k croats.
U also omitted to note that i said that there never ever had been a geographic region called
vojna krajina. It was a war zone and then it wasn't any longer war zone !
Like all frontiers of any land the may shrink or expand. However map shows knin in dalmatia and not vojna krajina.
Do u not know what "kraj" or krajina means? If u don't, then ask even serbs if u like!
It forever ceased to exist in late 17th century. So, why is kosovo in serbia and knin, the seat of croat kings, is not in dalmatia? And dalmatia in croatia and not ever in serbia!
The education u'r getting had lead serbs from disasters to disasters.
U also omitted the fact that there was no referendum undertaken by chetniks; the actual rulers of serbs i serb enclaves
And serbs leaving sabor to organize murder expulsion and then ask for cultural autonomy. And who wldn't first steal and murder and only thereafter negotiate or want to have a vote.
I had to laugh when i wrote this dwn!
Nor do chetniks recognize the fact that serbs also fought against chetniks. Do u think i write this for u? With ur 'knowledge'. And positing wild guesses, personal attacks, demonization or urging people to read chetnik's history so as to be enlightened!
Even in quoting people u lie!
Do u think readers wld not notice the mess u'r in?
And i am not a croatian but dalmatian and a communist to boot. My home twn of sibenik lost 1k youths in fighting chetniks, ustashe, italians and germans.
Let it be known that chetniks fought along germans; against tito's partizani; which included many serbs!
About existence of croatia? Historians– american ones, too– aver that croatia was the first kingdom in europe!
And before croats became fully catholic or serbs orthodox!
tnx
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 25th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
And for God's sake, stop blaming others for all the wrongs that happen to us. If the Partizan-Zvezda rivalry wasn't so sick, maybe we could deal with our foreign enemies. And remember, we betrayed quite a few of our friends in order to please our enemies. And Germans used to be among our friends. Does Goethe ring a bell to you?
Bianca
October 26th, 2010 at 11:24 am
Huh??!! And who is US? Sticking with Nebojsha's story, you just confirm the cultural problems of inferiority complex. It is, of course, entirely different when British fans cross the Channell, to show their machismo. Nobody would classify this phenomena as cultural depravity of British. The conduct of Serbian foreign policy — a suicidal path to be sure — has nothing to do with the GUILT of those who decided to bomb a nation and take its territory. The only way to maintain our humanity at such challenging times is to hold everyone responsible for their actions. The guilt of those committing atricities cannot be mittigated by the stupidity of their victims. But Germany may end up saving Europe from itself and its EU Wonderland.
Bianca
October 26th, 2010 at 11:34 am
Well, it should have been deleted, but then, how would a world have a chance to enjoy such gems! "US/NATO had no right to punish people ….regardles what crimes their "leaders" may have committed. OK, the same goes for bombing Serbia. What business has NATO do interfere in internal problems of that country, and punish its leaders ? So, Kurds can get out of Turkey, Iraq, Iran or Syria, whenever they please. So can good chunks of US to part for Mexico. And Krayina in Croatia should have been independent, even more so because it was indpendent during Austro-Hungarian rule, and that independence was taken away illegally. Hmmm. If Malic is chetnick, may we have more of them please!
Bianca
October 26th, 2010 at 11:45 am
The practice of forcible conversion is in FULL swing today. Whenever a Serb and a Croat wish to marry, it is a requirement for the Croatian partner to marry in Catholic Church. That is coercive, as it forces Serbian partner to accept Catholicism. But the problem is BY FAR more insidious. Upon converting to Catholicism, the Serbian partner is being asked to REMOVE HIS NAME FROM THE BIRTH RECORDS in Serbian Ortodox Church. Priests of the Serbian Church have been denying this request, but I am not sure to what avail. The net result of this is the following: the Serbian partner has not only changed his religion, he is being asked to change his NATIONALITY. He is to disappear from the Serbian records. Needless to say, the child has no freedom to decide what nationality he/she belongs to. That is Europe for you.
Bianca
October 26th, 2010 at 11:50 am
Bozh comments are racist, in a way American concept of racism will not detect. But I still believe it should be published. It is a reminder to be carefull. Love your family and friends, and teach your kids well. Make sure they know that scary things exist around us, and are not only in fairy tales.
Bianca
October 26th, 2010 at 11:59 am
Stay away from history, not your strong side. If you insist, help yourself to extensive genetic studies of Balkans. While there is enough data there to spend the whole life studying, in the nutshell, Serbs of Balkans are the INDIGINOUS POPULATION to the region, as they do not have the preponderance of Slavic genetic code. The high percentage of nordic genetic code in Croatia is indicative of immigration. Whatever older genetic code in Croatia is, comes from the Serbian natives. Kosovo is fascinating. Kosovo Serbs and Albanians have the oldest genetic code on Balkans. But, Albanians of Albania DO not match that pattern. Liguistics prove Albanian to be of recent origin on Balkans due to suprisingly low interconnectedness with Greek. Serbian and Bulgarian have a higher linkage to indoeuropean elements of Greek language. The famous Illyrian language consists of THREE words, and all of them PERSONAL names. These names are basically PRE-CHRISTIAN names of Balkan penninsula, rather then particularly Albanian. Serbian Church gradually influenced and reduced old names, while they remained in Albanian.
camus10
October 26th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
Still having trouble with Malic and some posters ethnic divisiveness. During the war 90-92, many thought the balkan groups were extreme xenophobes. Turns out they were served state propaganda. The serbs could not be guided away from their militarized nationalism. The orthodox church did not speak up. Result: genocide and war crimes.
blaming the kosovars and bosnians is like blaming defenseless palestinians.
The reason I am posting on this topic is because, it seems the balkan mindset is typical of the rest of europe. I do not see geraman french brit scandinavian italian greek state educational systems fostering a secular humanity. Now full blown figures like Merkel and Sarko are pushing antisocial extreme policies. Endemic ghetto mindsets
Hrebeljanovic
October 26th, 2010 at 8:41 pm
"blaming the kosovars and bosnians is like blaming defenseless palestinians. "
You are some kind of a joker, aren't you? Why don't you go and take a look at this:
http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=232
As for your false statement about "genocide" let's recall some historical facts:
Official policy of the Independent State of Croatia was: 1/3 of the Serbs we will convert to Catholicism, 1/3 we will expel and 1/3 we will murder. Croatians started it in 1941 and completed this real genocide in 1995 under the watchful eyes of Germany and USA with the expulsion of 300,000 of Krajina Serbs. Now, that is a true, real genocide that you are trying to cover up with your straight outright lies.
Hrebeljanovic
October 26th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
…and you sound like an idiot.
camus10
October 26th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
so you can establish your own facts now.
But funny thing. It was amnesty international, human rights watch and physicians for human rights which determined serb nationalism and paramilitaries are responsible for nearly all of the carnage. It is they who hid Karadzic and ratko mladic. Sorry your sources lack credibility and you are in the wrong place pushing genocidal propaganda
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 27th, 2010 at 10:18 am
Contrary to you, I would qualify these phenomena as cultural depravity of the British. I don't know if you have spent holidays alongside civilised Europeans, I have and I do consider the average Brit to be depraved.
What I tried to say was that maybe it was time for Serbs to stop whining. After all, they are governed by the people they chose to be governed by and as long as US loans and therefore US taxpayers financed socialist self-management in Yugoslavia, they didn't care a bit about Kosovo. But I did and my mother did, because the misery she earned and with which she was supposed to feed the two us, regularly was levied by the Commies in order to finance the Albanians in Kosovo and the ethnic cleansing they were practising against Serbs.
As for territory, remember those same Serbs shouting "We'll give our life but we won't give away Trieste". Serbs too grabbed territories from others, though not for themselves but rather for their Yugoslav "brothers". What goes around, comes around.
3oka
October 27th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Yes camus10 you're right, they said that and Bill Clinton said the same…
We can trust him (I did not have sex…), can we?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 27th, 2010 at 10:22 am
And I don't remember there were mass protests when those who defended Serbia were sent to The Hague, whereas criminals, who often were also war criminals could parade wherever they wanted and instil a climate of violence in Serbia.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 27th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
As Bianca said, stay away from History. It is sickening to see so much ignorance and clichés packed into a single post.
(in)tolerance
October 27th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
"Kosovo was taken away by ethnic cleansing prior to whatever happened in the nineties of the last century. "
Wasn't it the time when the term was coined? Albanians were moving in by droves and expelling the Christians – Serbs. I think i read it sometimes in NewYork times i late 80.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 27th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Well, you have touched a point there with genetics and linguistics. You could have mentioned also the similitude between many Kosovo Albanian and Serb patronymics. Malic being one of them.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 27th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
You are correct. I read it also in the NYT for the first time. Yes, the NYT could be accessed in Belgrade in those years. But I confess I don't remember the year exactly, maybe '86 or '87.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 27th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Andy, you and I seem to be the objects of some "thumbs down"-"thumbs up" match up here. -:)
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 27th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
In fact, I think definitely before two interviews Milosevic gave, one to the Paris "Le Monde" and one to the NYT, in which he completely blew it, either because of ideological blindness, or because of sheer dumbness or because he had been assigned a role to play. Prior to his accession to power, he spent a few years in the USA, so I know, I'm talking conspiracy theories, blah blah…
camus10
October 27th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
agreed 30ka. we do need to scrutinize our sources even when they come from lewd lust ___ ;)
Hrebeljanovic
October 27th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
"It was amnesty international, human rights watch and physicians for human rights which determined…"
You call these orgs a credible source? You are joking again, right?
Do your research before you blabber out unfounded and dumb accusations.
camus10
October 28th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Hreb, these are considered the most credible human rights and war crimes investigating organizations. For your Information. One of these groups was awarded the Nobel Peace prize
Please spare us from rabid genocidal propaganda from militant Serbia and Israel
Hrebeljanovic
October 28th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Nobel Prize lost its credibility long time ago.
These orgs are full of spies and serve as a government mouthpiece, you ignorant fool.
Bianca
October 29th, 2010 at 9:44 am
Sorry, but I do not think you get this "european thing". Balkans mess is your classical imperial divide-and-rule attrocity, using whatever extreme elements in each society to exercise full sway over the bewildered, scared and angry population. I would wager anything that US would not be any different should someone in power decide to allow extremists that exist in all nationalities, religions and races, to go out on a rampage and kill indiscriminately "their enemies". You will see how, even the most enlightened, would suddenly find themselves looking for a friendly group to attach themselves to, as fear is the most powerfull of all motives. Once we are all divided into groups and huddled into our own bushes, it will be easy to manipulate. Guess what, the secular humanists were worse off then anybody else — everybody suspected them, and nobody gave them cover.
Events in Germany and France today cannot be compared. This is an entirely different story.
Bianca
October 29th, 2010 at 9:59 am
It is such an amusing thing to say, militant Serbia and Israel! While many Serbs will have hard time with this comparison, in fact Serbs of Kosovo are in the same position Palestinans are. It does not matter how many UN resolutions say that Israel should withdraw from occupied land. Serbs, like Palestinians live in Kosovo in "enclaves", barbed wire ghettos, and our brave press, and fantastic Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch just never found time to go there. There was a photo exibition in Washington on the life of children of those ghettos, but then only a small number of people would hear about it. Does it matter that UN Resolution 1244 guarantees the sovereignty of Serbia over Kosovo? US and most EU countries recognized Kosovo as independent country, and trashed the Resolution. Human Rights Watch was supposed to investigate the human organ harvesting from kidnapped Serbs in Kosovo, just to sweep the whole thing under the rug. No, there is no such thing as Nobel Peace Prize. The whole thing has turned grotesque.
camus10
October 29th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
physician for human rights did receive the Nobel Prize. There work has been widely acclaimed by progressives with open disagreement with the official western govt sources.
militant serbia and Israel is a reference to the official complicity with nationalist paramilitaries who perpetrated vast massacres. It is not a reference to the civilians from all factions who suffered. It is also widely established bosnians and kosovars have lived under oppressive serb policies for decades before the war partitioned their land.
There is nothing amusing about Israelis complicity in numerous crimes against humanity. Crimes committed again by rabid nationalists who have turned a secular land into a shelter for fascist rabbis.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 30th, 2010 at 10:34 am
Whereas whether Kosovo Albanians lived under Serbian oppression or not could be a subject of argue, a pity they never went forward with evolution but preferred to stick with kanun and blood revenge, the assertion that Serbs have oppressed Bosnians is completely ludicrous. Do you have any example based on facts of any sort of Serbian oppression prior to 1992. And, having been on the media front line for what happened after '92, please spare me the propaganda that depicted the Serbs as being uniquely evil. Give me facts. Let's argue with facts.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 30th, 2010 at 11:27 am
Only a real-life Dr. Cal Lightman could explain the people who gave "thumb down" for this comment, the cognitive dissonance I felt when I heard "nobody is allowed to beat you" and saw Milosevic's face expression when he said it.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 30th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
Seeing how much people hate truth is always an experience as much confusing as it is enlightening. Whether fellow Serbs or Serb haters, I am yet to read a single answer to anything I posted that is backed up with facts. Instead, I have read interpretations of my personality based on… well, tell me what do you base your conclusions on. You folks actually represent a danger for peace, and for mankind, because your perception of reality is altered by your wishes and by the frustration that your wishes can't come true. You should inform yourself about yoga.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 30th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
For anecdote, in 1995, the year I graduated on Paris VI university, I went to contest a mark I was given at an exam. After having proved that the evaluation I got was inadequate, the answer I was given was "your reasoning is correct but I don't like it", and to dismiss my case my professor told me that he had "états d'âme". I know of no appropriate translation for that expression in English but I know that it was his way of telling me that he blew my chances of going post-graduate because I was Serb.
To cut the story short, nobody, including me, gives a d*rn f*ck about your "états d'âme". I don't care if Serb haters disregard facts, but I do care when Serbs do the same. Because I have seen Serbs blow it completely in the media by whining, bragging about and trying to cheat bigger and smarter swindlers than them. And they made MSM really happy with such a behaviour.
Kosova
October 31st, 2010 at 11:05 am
Long live USA, Germany, Great Britain, France and NATO! Long kive the free western world! Long live the independent Kosova!
Rad Vuckov
October 31st, 2010 at 12:36 pm
When i lived in Paris in fifties, the Serbs were respected as much as
the french can respect any foreigner. This is now different world.
Everything has their own life and it is an very painful-long passage.
The question is how the Serbs will handle their national interest.
Best luck to you and keep fighting. It's worth.
P.S. Reading the comments of the enemies: some totally ignorant
with an opinion and others dedicated enemies with really nothing to say except insults and profanities.
Stojko
October 31st, 2010 at 2:26 pm
It is only recenty that Sigmund Freued's sources came to light, and those are rather astonshing. The Frankish tribes (The Franks, Franci, Francorum) were a West Germanic tribal federation which came to European soil from the North half joining the Roman rullers of the Gaul province, the other half attacing the Romans and forming two distinct entities: NEUSTRIA and AUSTRASIA. Their immediate neighbors to the North were Saxon tribes. These (largely homosexual tribes) helped constitute today's Germany, France, Holland, Flanders, Belgium, Great Britain, Denmark. To the North East of their neighbors (The Saxons – also predominantly homosexual) was the Elbe river which separated Slavic tribes. Slavic tribes were thought of as primitive since they were largely heterosexual and based on matriarchal concepts up to the 3rd Century when they too started to migrate and move (today's Berlin – Sorboi (Serbs) in Luzice, most Slavic people of the old Yugoslavia that Malic is mentioning here, etc.). The true reasons for the tribal conflicts could be found in poor birth rates (since they were homosexual) and had to go to wars to conquer children and women who would procreate. These facts are not easily visible, but if you spend any real time in any of the above countries you will notice that homosexuality is rampant, migration from (again "inferior" nations) is massive all with the same goal – pure procreation and intent to continue the myth of some alleged "Wagnerian Uebermensh" in shape of some non-existent Valkyries, equally non-existent knight of the round table. All gay. That's why they have to keep expanding like a killer shark has to swim otherwise it will be unable to breathe. In closing the many misfortunes that have befallen Europe are a direct result of sexual impotence on the men who live in today's mainly NATO countries, no wonder they are continuing to invade and attack. Here is a sight for sore eyes, maps of Neustria (Neu is German for NEW) and Austrasia as mapped at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neustria
I personally have very little understanding and tolerance for the above listed deviants no matter what they call their today's country – so I shall refrain from any further comments or answers. Do the research on your own and you'll see what I saw. It's plain as day.
Eric Siverson
October 31st, 2010 at 5:10 pm
Bianiea What can you do if the goverenment took your money and gave it to somebody else . You have to face facts and reality . I know it was your money for your pennsion . The money is gone spent . there is not enough money for you . Maybe the goverenment gave the money to some poor farmer that grew food for you . I hope you remember the part played by the horse in George Orwell's book The animal farm . You must remember the pigs run the farm . The people voted the pigs in office . So really in short of a uprising and operating a Gilotine the pigs will not give you your money back .
Vojkan Milosavljevic
October 31st, 2010 at 5:32 pm
For all Serbs and Serb haters, I have assembled a playlist on MySpace. It's Brahms, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov. Maybe hearing it can help you with connecting synapses. Because from what I read here, you have problems with comprehension. Brahms, Tchaikovsky & Rachmaninov for therapy, you need it..
Stojko
November 1st, 2010 at 5:40 am
It is only recenty that Sigmund Freued's sources came to light, and those are rather astonshing. The Frankish tribes (The Franks, Franci, Francorum) were a West Germanic tribal federation which came to European soil from the North half joining the Roman rullers of the Gaul province, the other half attacing the Romans and forming two distinct entities: NEUSTRIA and AUSTRASIA. Their immediate neighbors to the North were Saxon tribes. These (largely homosexual tribes) helped constitute today's Germany, France, Holland, Flanders, Belgium, Great Britain, Denmark. To the North East of their neighbors (The Saxons – also predominantly homosexual) was the Elbe river which separated Slavic tribes. Slavic tribes were thought of as primitive since they were largely heterosexual and based on matriarchal concepts up to the 3rd Century when they too started to migrate and move (today's Berlin – Sorboi (Serbs) in Luzice, most Slavic people of the old Yugoslavia that Malic is mentioning here, etc.). The true reasons for the tribal conflicts could be found in poor birth rates (since they were homosexual) and had to go to wars to conquer children and women who would procreate. These facts are not easily visible, but if you spend any real time in any of the above countries you will notice that homosexuality is rampant, migration from (again "inferior" nations) is massive all with the same goal – pure procreation and intent to continue the myth of some alleged "Wagnerian Uebermensh" in shape of some non-existent Valkyries, equally non-existent knight of the round table. All gay. That's why they have to keep expanding like a killer shark has to swim otherwise it will be unable to breathe. In closing the many misfortunes that have befallen Europe are a direct result of sexual impotence on the men who live in today's mainly NATO countries, no wonder they are continuing to invade and attack. Here is a sight for sore eyes, maps of Neustria (Neu is German for NEW) and Austrasia as mapped at Wikipedia:
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 1st, 2010 at 10:17 am
To all the Serbs and Serb haters who gave me so many thumbs down. I could live comfortably in Serbia with what I own, but I prefer to struggle in France because I prefer to live among civilised people rather than among the barbarians of the former Yugoslavia. Those barbarians cut all my trees.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 1st, 2010 at 11:26 am
You're pathetic.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 1st, 2010 at 11:41 am
And the professor in question was a dedicated zionist.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 1st, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Do you hate me? If you do, do you have the courage to affront me?
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 1st, 2010 at 5:49 pm
If I ever meet an American pilot, I swear before God that for the rest of his life he'll only be able to watch vegetables grow, as for the imbeciles here, you inspire me only pity.
camus10
November 1st, 2010 at 8:09 pm
Vojkan, your posts reflect a deep personal sensitivity and defensiveness. What good you can give back to Serbia is to inspire civil harmony through positive forces in the Orthodox tradition. Whether in France or Serbia, all native slavs need to see their destiny beyond political bravado and fasle pride.
This is the wrong site for you to confront "serb haters." I for one, resent such misplaced victimization. Many here have learned to serve beyond our ethnic roots with a welcoming open heart, I cannot imagine anyone truly hating an entire serbian people. Energize the true serb spirit so it never bows to the false and suicidal pride of militant nationalists
camus10
November 1st, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Vojkan, your posts reflect a deep personal sensitivity and defensiveness. What good you can give back to Serbia is to inspire civil harmony through positive forces in the Orthodox tradition. Whether in France or Serbia, all native slavs need to see their destiny beyond political bravado and false pride.
Terry Roberts
November 2nd, 2010 at 6:03 am
… leading to the expulsion of over 200,000 Serbs from Kosovo, who still can not return. I believe the appropriate definition of this is ethnic cleansing.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 2nd, 2010 at 3:03 pm
You got me wrong. Serb haters don't represent a problem to me. Serbs do. And I am not defensive, on the contrary. What really irritates me is the Serb quandary "why don't they love us"? Well, they don't, it's their right. To "inspire civil harmony" is an impossible task. Serbs don't want to be saved. Serbs don't respect their country, they don't respect themselves. Your pseudo seems to indicate that you like French culture. From life experience, I can tell you, the French have more heart than the Serbs. My people need to be taught humility. The kind St Simeon had.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 2nd, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Btw, I doubt any commentator here has ever collected as many "thumbs down" as I have. Please believe me, I feel no anger about it, it amuses me. Music is my yoga.
Bianca
November 4th, 2010 at 11:13 am
Yes, but the first step is to CALL THE PIGS ACCOUNTABLE, by refusing to budge on the legal obligations to pay out fromt the retirment trust fund. Let us see then what happens next. If they still want to fund wars, let them borrow from China some more. We need to stop GIVING THEM EXCUSES. "May be they did some good with the money". May be. But more likely,. they fed the financial bubble making themselves rich, and sticking us with the bill. Everyone with an IOU should DEMAND it be paid, and not give in a dime.
Bianca
November 4th, 2010 at 11:21 am
Sorry Camus10, you are out of your depth here, and it is really hard to have any kind of discussion or even a chance for an argument with someone who has swollowed all the war propaganda. With Serbs being exterminated in the last Balkan wars from Croatia, the Croat-Bosnian federation and Kosovo, one cannot really be blind to the numeric facts. Most victims of the Yugoslav civil wars of seccession were Serbs. By far. By number of dead, land lost, number of refugees, businesses, farms and houses taken away, historic landmarks destroyed, Until today, they are the largest refugee population in Europe.
And the Nobel Prize for Peace is awarded to?
Roman Tarnawsky
November 4th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
"Btw, for anecdote, a Serb merchant saved Vienna from Ottoman siege and initiated European addiction to coffee."
Actually he was a Ukrainian, Yuriy Kulchytskyj, born in 1640 in Kulchytsi near Sambir into an old Orthodox-Ruthenian (i.e. Ukrainian) noble family, Kulchytskyj-Shelestovych. This is just to keep the facts straight :-)
Roman
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 4th, 2010 at 3:33 pm
Sorry, I have problems finding it on the Internet. But historians seem to have a dilemma whether Sambir is actually Sambor in Poland or Sombor in Serbia.. And the German teach that he was a merchant of Polish origin who lived in Belgrade. I don't dispute your facts about his origins but the museum of coffee is located in Poland and Polish troops defeated the Ottomans. So I have the right to claim he was Serbian, you have the right to claim he was Ukrainian and Poles have the right to claim he was Polish. And if I ever become famous, the French will have all the right to claim me as French in spite of my origins.
I meant it only as an anecdote.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 4th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
And actually, I forgot to spell out my point: we haven't always been enemies.
Roman
November 9th, 2010 at 10:21 am
Sambir is in Ukraine, in the far west of the country. The poles call it Sambor but it is the same city. Kulchytskyj was definitely born in Sambir and not in Sombor in Serbia. If you want to claim him as a Serb, be my guest ;-)
Roman
Vojkan Milosavljevic
November 19th, 2010 at 9:42 am
Well as I said, where he was born is a matter of dispute between historians. Sambir was in Austria-Hungary when he was born, and was in Poland between the two world wars. The fact that Nikola Tesla was born in Smiljan which today is in Croatia, doesn't make him a Croat. He was Serb.
So even if Koljšicki was born in Sombor and not Sambir, that wouldn't necessarily make him a Serb, since Sombor too was in Austria-Hungary back then. And I don't dispute his Ruthenian background. But the fact that he chose Belgrade and that he there prospered as a merchant…
There are a lot of Serb historical figures who weren't of Serbian ethnicity but declared themselves Serbs. Contrary to what propaganda pretends, we have overcome a long ago the need to count blood cells in order to determine who is what.
Nationality is a little more than a matter of ethnic background, religion or place of birth.