Why Oppose Interventionism?
What conservatives have forgotten – and libertarians remember
I often hear a variant of the following from conservatives (and some liberals) when confronted with the foreign policy views of libertarians: “Sure, I’m all for a more peaceful foreign policy, but you guys take it too far – isolationism won’t work in our increasingly interconnected world. Besides, we have real enemies we have to deal with.”
There are several problems with this response. First, there is no such thing as “isolationism” and no such creature as an “isolationist.” Sure, there are some who oppose international trade – labor unions, for one, and other “fair traders” – but libertarians are not included in their ranks. The “isolationist” label was cooked up by interventionists as a scare word to define the terms of the foreign policy debate and smear their opponents as unrealistic troglodytes.
The War Party is the one really consistent advocate of what might be called isolationism: by forcefully intervening in the internal affairs of other nations, by occupying countries and effecting “regime change,” we isolate ourselves from the rest of the world and retreat into an imperialist cocoon, cutting off all normal – i.e. economic and social – relations, and laying the groundwork for the kind of “blowback” that results in terrorism directed against the US and its allies.
Secondly, it would be impossible to take the principle of non-intervention “too far.” Properly applied, that principle means US foreign policy is to be formulated and applied in accordance with the concept of non-aggression: that is, US policy would be consistent with the libertarian axiom that the initiation of force is always wrong, and always lead to bad results. Nothing bad can ever come of abjuring aggression. On the other hand, an inconsistent or erroneous interpretation of the non-interventionist principle could have equally disastrous results: e.g. the failure to repel an attack on the US in the mistaken belief that such an action would be “interventionist.”
Yes, but – our imaginary interlocutor might reply – weren’t we attacked on 9/11, and aren’t our actions since then fully justified?
This brings us to an essential corollary of the non-aggression axiom: that retaliatory force is justified only against those who initiate its use. Which means: invading Iraq – and occupying Afghanistan for over a decade – is out of the question as a response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, as dramatic and earth-shaking as these actions were, did not bring us a single step closer to taking out Osama bin Laden and his cronies: that happened only when we engaged in the kind of old-fashioned and decidedly un-dramatic police work which enabled us to track the terrorist leader to his lair – and then we were in and out of there in a matter of hours.
All of which proves that we know how to go after terrorists and terrorism in the right way – but we’d rather not, unless it’s preceded by a long series of wars, because there’s a whole other agenda behind our endless “war on terrorism.” And with the extension of America’s wars of aggression into Africa, and a “regime change” campaign underway against Iran, Libya, and god-knows-who-else, that agenda is not hard to fathom.
The United States has been lording it over the rest of the world since the end of World War II: the United Nations, an embryonic world government, was established at the behest of American elites. They saw it as the instrument of an emerging “world order” in which Washington, along with its junior partners in London, Paris, and – for a while – Moscow, would extend a controlling influence over the entire globe.
During the cold war era, as ramshackle Russia cowered under the pretext of “socialism in one country,” while the US used anticommunist ideology as a rationale to build an empire of bases – and US-supported dictatorships – in Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. The interventionist impulse drove us to support the Afghan mujahideen in their war of “liberation” against the Soviets – and led to the peculiar concatenation of circumstances that made the creation of al-Qaeda possible.
Funny how, at every turn, America’s great “allies,” who owed their continued existence to US generosity, wound up becoming our worst enemies. From Lend-Lease to Stalin to US aid to Afghan “freedom-fighters,” the lesson of history is clear: blowback from one era wafts easily into another. We are still paying for the sins of our 20th century politicians.
Not that our 21st century “leaders” are doing a better job: far from it. The post-9/11 era has seen us replicate every mistake we ever made, times ten. In its ferocity and scope, America’s post-9/11 rampage has no precedent in history: the Mongol invasions, which depopulated large portions of Asia, and extended into parts of Europe, were sporadic by comparison with the relentless American march through the Middle East and Central Asia. It took Genghis Khan and his descendants a hundred years to build an empire on the scale US policymakers have constructed in just the last decade.
The sheer velocity of intervention
has picked up, as if our rulers are in an awful hurry to create that
“world order” Washington policy wonks are constantly telling us is necessary for our own “security.”
their
This escalation, you’ll note, coincides with the escalating economic crisis that has gripped the international banking system based on fiat money and government debt – the biggest financial weapons in the War Party’s arsenal. Without the ability to “monetize” the debt – that is, “pay” the debt in devalued dollars issued by the Federal Reserve – America’s matchless military machine and the empire it defends would not exist.
The real estate “bubble,” the hi-tech “bubble,” and all the many instances of malinvestment created by the Federal Reserve – the “private” gang of banksters who really run the US economy – have their reflection in the foreign policy realm. Sure, we’re going bankrupt, yet you can be sure the bubble of American imperialism is going to be the very last to pop. Our wise and benevolent rulers would sooner see 90 percent of homeowners foreclosed than give up a single one of their cherished colonial possessions. In the decadent and rapidly failing political culture of what was once a great country, hubris is the defining characteristic of our elites.
Libertarians oppose our foreign policy of global intervention because the history of America’s wars is the story of how Big Government came to dominate the life of the nation. The outcome of every military conflict with the exception of the American Revolution has been a series of unprecedented extensions of government control into new areas. Wartime “temporary emergencies” inevitably hardened into routine regulations, and measures that were formerly unthinkable – e.g. Lincoln’s shutting down of opposition newspapers, Truman’s seizure of the steel mills during the Korean War, the “PATRIOT” Act, etc. – entered the realm of possibility. In wartime, when expressions of dissent are met with “Don’t you know there’s a war on?”, the collectivist mentality is dominant: the whole nation is militarized, and failure to march in lockstep is considered evidence of “treason.” Liberty tends to perish in such an atmosphere, as it nearly did in the war hysteria following the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
Libertarianism seeks to limit the power of government as much as possible. This means opposing the extension of governmental power in every instance, including its extension abroad. That’s why conservatives, who agree with the libertarian program of cutting government to a bare minimum on the home front, are caught in an unsupportable contradiction. They are faced with the conundrum of opposing, say, aid to the elderly and sick in this country, while supporting “foreign aid” that supposedly advances our “national interest.”
In reality, the flow of American tax dollars abroad only advances the economic interests of our thieving sock-puppets, and certain US exporters, who vacuum up those aid dollars as quickly as they are appropriated. In economic terms, the game of empire is a bust, a net loss by any measure. Conservatives used to know this. It was that old right-wing reactionary Garet Garrett – prolific writer, noted editor, and prominent enemy of the New Deal – who said of the American Imperium that it is an empire without precedent in the history of the world because “everything goes out and nothing comes in.”
It was the conservatives of Garrett’s time who were first accused of being the dreaded “isolationists,” and now their lineal descendants hurl the same charge at us. That’s due to a lapse of historical memory, the saddest case of political amnesia ever recorded. In their more reflective moments, conservatives may wonder why Big Government has only gotten bigger over the years, and never any smaller. The best they’ve managed to do is to decrease the rate of increase – albeit only incrementally, and temporarily.
Conservatives won elections, yet still the “march of progress” was always in the direction of bigger and more aggressive government. This happened, and continues to happen, due to their blind spot on the question of war and peace: the reflexive belligerence of the cold war years, and the perseverance of neoconservatism in spite of its catastrophic failures in the realm of policy and politics, has created an inner contradiction at the core of the modern conservative credo. Conservatives must choose between the moral and political strictures of the Constitution and the perverse joys of militarism. We can have a republic, or we can have an empire: we cannot have both. It’s as simple as that.
Our message to American liberals varies very little from this essential axiom. The problem is that modern American liberals trace their ideological lineage back to the left wing of the New Deal, and are constantly invoking their hero, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, as an example for President Obama – their current hero – to follow. I’ll bet the Japanese-Americans among their number are a little shocked to hear this, but being so very polite, they no doubt fail to remind their progressive friends of such inconvenient details as the internment camps.
In terms of sheer deceptiveness and demagogic power, no American president has ever been such an effective warmonger as FDR. He not only lied us into war, as Clare Booth Luce so trenchantly put it, but he executed his war plan in such a manner as to make the next war – the “cold” war that sometimes got very hot – practically inevitable. Liberals who complain – rightly – about the erosion of civil liberties in Obama’s (and George W. Bush’s) America will find nearly all the legal precedents were set during FDR’s long and repressive reign.
Yet the liberal-left of that time didn’t make so much as a peep of protest as Japanese-Americans were hauled off to concentration camps, “subversive” newspapers were banned from the mails, and various dissidents on the right and the left were prosecuted for “sedition.” Indeed, the left-wing media gloried in the persecution of the Japanese, with commie cartoonist Theodor Seuss Geisel, a.k.a. “Dr. Seuss,” giving full vent to the most vicious bigotry – from a “progressive” and impeccably “anti-fascist” perspective, of course. When Lawrence Dennis, a widely-read author and former US diplomat, was tried for sedition on the grounds that the pro-Hitler German American Bund had cited his writings, the American Civil Liberties Union was nowhere to be found.
The neoconized conservatives and the Obama-ized liberals are immune to the anti-interventionist argument, and are quite naturally hostile to libertarianism. The only hope, if hope there be, is in the new movements that are emerging on both sides of the political spectrum: the so-called Tea Party, and the Occupy Wall Street movement, which are both in rebellion – in their different ways – against the ideological status quo. While both are also misguided in their separate ways, it is only in the context of a serious rethinking of what it means to be on the “left” or the “right” that a real challenge to the War Party will emerge.
There are many signs that this is happening, but it is too early to tell if these forces will ever jell into a unified movement with a coherent critique of the modern Warfare State. All we can do at the moment is to push both sides, ever so gently, in the right direction, provide the space for a new realignment – and hope for the best.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Common Fallacies About
Anti-Interventionism – February 21st, 2012 - The Big One Cometh – February 19th, 2012
- Voting Out the War Party? – February 16th, 2012
- The Pentagon’s Lie Machine – February 14th, 2012
- What Now? – February 12th, 2012





Harry
October 9th, 2011 at 9:45 pm
Justin wrote: "This brings us to an essential corollary of the non-aggression axiom: that retaliatory force is justified only against those who initiate its use."
This is a fine maxim and one that has much resonance in moral intuitions throughout history.
Justin is wrong, however, to suggest that the United States acts consistently with this maxim in using violence against "al Qaeda" or other Arab resistance soldiers. Osama bin Laden and his fellow men did not initiate violence with the United States. The raids in 2011 were retaliatory strikes against U.S.-backed violence in Palestine, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia (military occupation being a form of violence). The United States and Israel initiated the violence.
The United States, as the aggressor, has no moral right under this principle to kill Arabs who are fighting to defend their people and their lands from US-Israeli aggression.
Justin recognizes the phenomenon of "blowback," but he doesn't seem to grasp its moral standing under his non-aggression maxim.
Harry
October 9th, 2011 at 10:38 pm
Correction: The raids in *2001* [Sept. 11, 2001, in other words] were retaliatory strikes by Arab resistance fighters against U.S.-backed violence…"
John V. Walsh
October 9th, 2011 at 10:56 pm
Bravo! Great piece and food for a lot of thought.
RickR30
October 9th, 2011 at 11:12 pm
As the difference between Republicans and Democrats gets smaller and smaller with every successive administration, all they have left is to give different style speeches. One veils pointless and expensive aggression in phoney patriotic terms, the other in empty humanitarian platitudes. One doesn't even feel the need to justify intervention but sees aggression as a good for its own sake, the other justifies it poorly for the sake of some non-existent greater good. Ironically, the Republicans, ordinarily not fans of Darwin, see the US as exercising its might (and evil and stupidity) everywhere as its natural right, given that it is the strongest nation (on the surface) around so killing the dark starving non-JudeoChristian peoples is the natural order of things, while the Democrats think that doing so is for the good of the victims.
Both are caught up in a self-serving mania of war where the interventionist hyperactivity gives the illusion that the idiots in DC are doing something. It gives them something to talk about when they are too bored to talk about unsexy topics as the budget, the economy, jobs. It makes the empty suits seem so much informed when they talk about Abbottabad and Kandahar instead of Alabama and Michigan. It's so much easier to drone bomb a wedding party than to solve problems that affect Americans. And while Americans aren't allowed to expect their government to fix a single school, they are supposed to marvel at the goodness of its government building schools in Afghanistan. The government demands that the American people solve the problems the government has created on the their own, while rushing to solve problems that don't exist elsewhere in the world. Corporate thieves in Wall Street run domestic affairs, war mobsters and israelis run US foreign policy. Caught in the middle are the 99% who have got to stop electing the same crooks and traitors to government or this country will resemble Afghanistan in 4 years both in the corruption of their leaders and in the poverty of their people.
Justn Raimondo
October 9th, 2011 at 11:14 pm
Nonsense. Killing three thousand innocent civilians is not and cannot be considered "retaliatory" in any meaningful — and moral — sense of the term. Your argument, such as it is, is premised on the idea that the late Osama bin Laden and his fellow ghouls represent the interests of the people of the Middle East — a fate which I'm sure they don't deserve. I suggest, "Harry," that you go back to the hole you crawled out from under — whether that be a jihadist hole, or one closer to home, I'll leave it to the imagination of my readers to decide.
angelsliberty
October 10th, 2011 at 12:15 am
In my view, people who poo-poo fair trade and call government the source of all evil read selectively. Astutely, Naomi Klein links the military side of empire to the economic theories of Milton Friedan, as applied in Chile. In the modern era, "structural adjustments" of the World Bank and the IMF have stood as the device for setting people after people in the crosshairs of a finely tuned system of disenfranchisement and exploitation. Government operates at the behest of a corporate and economic elite who don't neccessarily prefer military conquest to slavery and robbery. As John Perkins has said, "We’ve built the largest empire in the history of the world. It’s been done over the last 50 years since World War II with very little military might, actually. It’s only in rare instances like Iraq where the military comes in as a last resort. This empire, unlike any other in the history of the world, has been built primarily through economic manipulation, through cheating, through fraud. . .." I can only surmise, with a sense of disappointment, that a gap in Libertarian understanding has them pretty much ignoring Occupy Wall Street and a real opportunity to support those objecting to the broad sweep of injustice. I can only see the goal of limiting government in the absense of concern for the economic order–as exemplified by Wall Street and whose antidote includes something like fair trade–as stubbornly naive.
montaigne
October 10th, 2011 at 12:35 am
It's not just a government problem, but a broader cultural one. In a free and fair trade, both parties gets better off. However, when one party is protected with hundreds of thousands of various intellectual rights, armies of lawyers, having the staste intervene on their behalf, expenses mostly paid for by the comsumers – as well as presenting enormous documents that the buyer must obey – that balance is skewed heavily against the private buyers. They are not in a position to make a fair deal, which is fine with the big sellars, who then aligns with politicians through many sorts of gifts and services, and vice versa. A fascist culture and political reality posturing as democracy and freedom.
The many layers of rules and regulations would require the single humans to become organized in a sort of multi-layered intellectual cooperation. Just to be at equal footing. The great times of growth in the USA was at times with MUCH less regulation. People possesed and showed off much more dignity and self-respect. Watch any old movie as compared to any modern. A new and lower type of human creatures stems from the facts of spin replacing knowledge, and helplessnes replacing self confidence.
james
October 10th, 2011 at 12:56 am
Justin, I buy your argument that OBL and his soldiers do not represent the Arab world just as GW Bush and his minions do not represent America although they are far closer to it than OBL.
Please refute Harry's claims about why America's respond to 9/11 attacks were actually not retaliatory non withstanding how many innocent people died.
In other words can you please explain Americas action in the ME in total support of Israel as not aggressive? And that the 9/11 attacks were not in themselves blowback from these actions?
One final question Justin, why do you think people in the ME hate America?
Harry
October 10th, 2011 at 5:40 am
Justin,
I infer from your post that you believe that an act of force is morally justified only if the actor represents the interests of the person or people aggrieved. Do you believe that the U.S. federal government represents the people of the United States?
liveload
October 10th, 2011 at 5:53 am
This site does fine until the subject of 9/11 comes up, then it turns into a durp fest.
I just don't know what your reasoning or motivation is for your peculiar stance when it comes to 9/11. I could assume it's because you want to be seen as more accessible to mainstream viewers who's viewpoints are determined by the corporate propaganda machines, but whatever. It doesn't matter to me as much, but you should know that this stance cuts your credibility with people like me. Might not mean much, but I know I'm not the only one who saw a Reichstag fire and a building that died of fright that day.
Nelson_2008
October 10th, 2011 at 6:34 am
So if China launched a nuclear attack against major U.S. cities, you would be vehemently opposed to U.S. retaliation in kind because: "[k]illing [thousands of] innocent civilians is not and cannot be considered "retaliatory" in any meaningful — and moral — sense of the term"; or would you favor retaliation, putting the blame for the deaths of innocents killed in retaliation on the aggressor?
In any case, the whole argument is academic since the U.S. government has never produced any evidence whatsoever showing that "Arabs", let alone a specific Arab, i.e., Osama bin Laden, had anything to do with the planning or carrying out of 9/11.
FBastiat
October 10th, 2011 at 6:55 am
"Astutely, Naomi Klein links the military side of empire to the economic theories of Milton Friedan, as applied in Chile." Actually, Klein herself has recognized:
Bob D
October 10th, 2011 at 7:28 am
Sorry, Nelson, your arguement is fatuous. Two wrongs will never make a right.
I do get it about not railing against 9/11 or not retaliating against China in the absurd scenario you set up. Note – China would not hit us with a nuclear attack without it being an accident or something they considered provocation. Israel is the only country that does that and we support them . But as a politician or even as a non-mainstream journalist like Justin, you would run afoul of any American audience from whom you are trying to gain buy-in if you justtify 9/11 or don't retaliate on China..
Fact is, I am neither. But I am a Christian who will have to answer for his already numerous sins. It is clear that adding genocide or mass murder to that laundry list will not help my arguements regardless of the justification.
Nelson_2008
October 10th, 2011 at 8:02 am
You're not making much sense.
You don't like my example involving China? Then pick another example, since there are plenty of examples that would serve to illustrate my point, and my point is valid.
Let me try putting it a different way: Every time the U.S. government commits an atrocity, it makes us all morally defenseless against retaliation.
If the U.S. government were to launch a nuclear first strike against Russia, for example, the U.S. government would expect some retaliation no?
So who would bear moral responsibility for the deaths of U.S. citizens killed in a retaliatory attack?
MvGuy
October 10th, 2011 at 8:27 am
Want to see a particularly thick root of the intervention problem…??? Try the WWF, or the NFL…. Youth Hockey also contains many clues…!!! HooRah… HooRah… HooRah… (Fo R Boyz…!!)
andy
October 10th, 2011 at 9:47 am
I oppose interventionism because it gets Americans killed.
rodney
October 10th, 2011 at 11:16 am
“isolationist” (really an anti-meddling) is a code word used by england and her agents in usa to decry those people in America who do not want the whole of usa resources put to the benefit of English race and england and who may not want the perpetual wars being waged by england on the strength of American arms
NATO is an organisation created to maintain the power of third rate england through American arms to bully Germany and Europeans and to keep Russia down all for benefit of england and usa got sukced into it through British agents in us media and politics and business. that is what isolationist means one who is not willing to sacrifice for the benefit of england.
it is not only neocons who are for perpetual war it is the english race so called British who are instigating the perpetual war of course the English are too coward and weak to fight on their own so they have arranged a charade called NATO to do their dirty work.
Decisions in nato are made not in berlin or Belgium but only in London and some British agents’ place in Washington. NATO WAS CREATED TO KEEP THE INFLUNCE OF WEAKNED BRITISH BASTARDS TO KEEP EUROPEANS DOWN (ESPECIALLY GEMRNS AND FRENCH) AND KEEP RUSSIAN THREATEND. IT WAS NOT CREATED TO counter Russia; it was created to give
support by americans to the British agenda of keeping the world for the e benefit of English and anglosaxon race and that only.
joe
October 10th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
The problem with any abbsolute philosphy is that it does not hold up to scrutiny
Raimondo writes that: "Nothing bad can ever come of abjuring aggression"
But that simply isn't born out in reality. If all of your friends are attacked but you are not, it might very well benefit you to help them out. Just because you haven't been attacked yet doesn't mean that you won't be in the future. And then with the enemy controlling all of the assets of your friends, you will not be able to fend them off anymore.
Intervention and Aggression are two very different things. If you can never imagine a situation where you might intervene on someone else's behalf you must not have very good friends
muggles
October 10th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Excellent and important essay today. Bravo! This should be broadcast daily.
The US is now mired in a suicidal militarism, a cult of military worship that inevitabily leads to war and dictatorship. Every sporting event now features a "tribute to the troops" and other Nazi style uniform worship. All Hail the New American Stormtroopers!
Supposedly anti death penalty and peace loving "liberals" are stone cold silent about Obama's flying death squads, executing citizens deemed Enemies of the State justified only in secret bureaucratic memos. This is the world of American imperialism we live in today.
joe
October 10th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
A quick example illustrating the difference between intervention and aggression, simplyfied away from the concept of nation states to a domestic situation
The police:
If your house is robbed. The police will attempt to intervene on your behalf. Sometimes using violence
However sometimes the police are the aggressors, like for instance when they break up a peacefull protest.
Both are examples of the use of force, but one is intervention and one is aggression.
Strider55
October 10th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
If your house is robbed. The police will attempt to intervene on your behalf. Sometimes using violence
Actually they likely won't. The police are under no obligation whatever to prevent a crime or stop a crime in progress. All they do is investigate, gather evidence and file reports. They can even refuse to respond to a 911 call, and they don't need a reason for their refusal. People have often sued the police for negligence when cops didn't respond and loved ones died; they have always lost, even in the SCOTUS.
As a result, many states have extended their self-defense laws to include defending 3rd parties from aggression.
andy
October 10th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
America's role should be that of a balancer, preventing any ONE single state from dominating the whole of the Eurasian landmass. This does not require permanent alliances.
andy
October 10th, 2011 at 2:59 pm
The military sure has hijacked sporting events. Just today I was watching a baseball game. They had a marine guard holding a ridiculously huge flag and the ear-shattering jets overhead. Why does a baseball game have to be propaganda for the war machine?
andy
October 10th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
Your examples are kind of crazy Joe. Both examples are interventions. But the first is a defensive act against an intrusion. The second is an act of aggression.
joe
October 10th, 2011 at 3:09 pm
who said anything about permenant aliances?
We are talking about intervening on someones behalf
And in some cases when someone is getting attacked and you have the power to stop it, it is actually immoral for you not to do so.
Obviously very little of the war on terror resembles that situation, but to pretend it doesn't ever exist is foolish
joe
October 10th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
Yes they are both interventions
but only one was an aggression
That was the whole point
carl
October 10th, 2011 at 3:11 pm
Sorry, Justin — labor unions do not oppose international trade. You're flat out wrong about that.
Your framing of the issue betrays the operative "libertarian capitalist" ideal, which is the utopia of unlimited exploitation.
joe
October 10th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
Yes police are charged with stopping a crime in progress
I'm not sure where you came up with that. I assume there are some situations where the police would deem its better not to run in someplace and engage the criminals. But they are still actively trying to stop
joe
October 10th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
sorry hit enter too soon
The legal cases you assert exist are whether someone can sue the police for not responding to a 911 call or fixing some specific problem. Not whether their duty is to arrest active criminals, which I can't imagine that you really think is not their role in our society
Harry
October 10th, 2011 at 8:55 pm
But as a politician or even as a non-mainstream journalist like Justin, you would run afoul of any American audience from whom you are trying to gain buy-in if you justtify 9/11 or don't retaliate on China..
Obtaining "buy-in" has been such an abject failure for the past ten years precisely because intellectuals and other public figures will not acknowledge what motivated 9/11 and the essential righteousness of Bin Laden's campaign.
Antiwar arguments are so weak and incoherent because people who advance them refuse to admit that Bin Laden and his fellow soldiers had good grounds to hit back at the United States.
liberranter
October 10th, 2011 at 10:24 pm
For reasons I cannot begin to fathom, Justin swallows the "official" 9/11 story, hook, line, and sinker. It's his major ideological blind spot, and yes, it does dent his otherwise healthy credibility. My recommendation to everyone, for the sake of harmony, is to just pass on this subject. To argue about it here is fruitless and serves no purpose but to distract from the main focus of an otherwise solid piece of writing.
liberranter
October 10th, 2011 at 10:35 pm
I assume you're referring to Game 1 of the ALCS. Yeah, I caught that too. The only answer I can think of to your question that makes any sense is that for every one of us peace lovers who is a baseball fan, there are hundreds of others who are undereducated, unemployed potential cannon fodder with the attention span of houseflies and an electronic game-stimulated craving for violence and destruction that the Empire can recruit for its wars of conquest. The same thing at football games, both in pre-game and halftime shows and in ads between plays, is becoming just as disgustingly militaristic. I only wonder why the same thing isn't happening at NBA or NHL games (or maybe it is; I don't watch either one).
liberranter
October 10th, 2011 at 10:38 pm
You took the words right off my fingertips.
I'll even go one step further and say that, far from intervening on your behalf, it's just as likely that most of today's urban and suburban pork forces will arrest, harass, or kill YOU as they will the perp assaulting you or your property.
Strider55
October 10th, 2011 at 11:15 pm
OK, here's just the most recent ruling confirming police have no duty to prevent or stop a crime. This article provides additional proof.
Even more proof from the local level:
Oakland cops will no longer respond to 44 types of crimes.
Topeka will no longer prosecute misdemeanor domestic battery — which means cops will not make arrests for those crimes.
Bob D
October 11th, 2011 at 4:40 am
Failure? Bill Clinton was in 8 years and he and his family, once well off but not rich have become near billionares. Obama won the presidency with no experience. His bank account will soon follow. AIPAC runs congress. And president Ron Paul exists only in your dreams.
Getting buy-in may disgust you but don't tell me it is a failure. Not for the people who want power and practice it. Oh, you mean failure for the US? Nobody cares.
Look to yourself Harry. You have a problem facing reality. And as long as that is true you can't even help your friends and allies. Nobody is listening.
Bob D
October 11th, 2011 at 5:04 am
Yes, two wrong not making a right does not always make much sense in the secular court of opinion. Who are you measureing yourself agains Nelson? The old USSR? China? Israel? Bin Laden? the US government? You choose some undistigushed company.
Let me also come at it another way. I'm making the big assumption that you are a Christian with an IQ somewhat above Moron. Do you think comparing your ugly deeds to your undistingushed warlovers strawmen will carry any weight when you are judged? Boy, I'd like to be a fly on the wallcloud to hear that arguement, maybe I could use parts of it in arguing my own case.
But no, it looks like you think you should be the judge. You would have to be an all-knowing being in order to feel like you can judge who is the aggressor (bad bad bad) and who is the retaliator ( to you this is good good good). We are not on the scene to see for ourselves but we can trust the governements to tell us which is which right?
stevieb
October 11th, 2011 at 5:28 am
Of course it can. Perhaps not morally – but then, whose moral? Show me one moral actor in this picture and I'll show you the pearly gates…
It was of course retaliatory – it was, according to the offical account, an attack in retaliation for years of allowing the Israelis to destroy and steal Palestine; it was for American troops in Saudi Arabia; it was for years of propping up ME dictators, etc etc,
The targets were all legitmate according to most Western war doctrines; economic; military(The Pentagon etc), So to say there was no legal recourse for an attack on U.S sites is false.
Under international law, one could make a case that the U.S has been at war with various countries in the ME for the last 60 years…
stevieb
October 11th, 2011 at 5:31 am
Hard to see where the negatives come from to your reply; maybe someone who voted negatively could tell me the problem with this comment
stevieb
October 11th, 2011 at 5:35 am
now that's utter rubbish…
where on earth do you get that from?
Nelson_2008
October 11th, 2011 at 5:38 am
What does the "D" stand for "Bob", Dense? You refuse to respond to my point and instead attack me personally. Well knucklehead, that just proves that you have no moral reasoning ability whatsoever.
Who are YOU to decide that any given defending party is "wrong" to fight back?
If a bully is beating someone up, and they only way they can hope to stop the bully is to inflict some pain in return, hoping that the pain they inflict will deter the bully from further aggression, how is that "wrong"?
If anything, you're the "all-knowing being" goofball for your implication that only you have the right to say who can and can't fight back and defend themselves against aggression. Whereas my main point is that neither Justin (nor especially a pathetic moral slug such as yourself) has any standing to judge anyone else's response to aggression against them.
Nelson_2008
October 11th, 2011 at 5:39 am
So doing evil is ok if the perpetrator can prosper from it, is that your point? Then that poses the question: what are you doing at an anti-war web site, goofball? (BTW, Obama didn't "win" anything…he merely sold his soul to the puppetmasters who've basically subverted the whole political process and was thereupon placed in office).
stevieb
October 11th, 2011 at 5:42 am
Yeah, the British are really reaping the benefits of keeping the Germans(and the French, too) down. Especially at the expencse of the Americans. Anybody can see that….
stevieb
October 11th, 2011 at 5:45 am
I oppose intervionism because it get Americans killing innocent civilians mostly. I oppose interventionism for America because it is a facist nation.
Maybe you should think about opposing it for that reason too.
liveload
October 11th, 2011 at 5:55 am
Don't put much stock in those ratings. People can rate their own posts, multiple times in some cases. Besides, they're not generally indicative of the quality of the post anyway. It's more like the popularity contests you encountered in high school than anything else.
liveload
October 11th, 2011 at 5:57 am
"Quickly, before zee Germans get here…"
Bob D
October 11th, 2011 at 11:01 am
Where did I give somebody the right to fight back? You did. It wasn't my idea to say that nobody can fight back. Somewhere it was said to "turn the other cheek" . I don't pretend that that isn't a hard standard to live by. I did learn as a 8 year old child achieving total revenge did not give me satisfaction. But it left me empty and feeling ill. I didn't expect that. Suddenly "turn the other cheek" had the ring of truth. Yitzak Rabin went through a experience similar to that though without the religious compass I have. Do you think he was a moral slug?
Bob D
October 11th, 2011 at 11:15 am
You like to edit my words to argue against points I did not make. Getting buy in is a tactic, neither good nor evil. reread our discussion, that is what we are talking about. You always seem to want to set up a non-existant straw man to rail against. Let me try that method of argument. Can I assume that you stand with AIPAC and Obama? Your perpetual war foreign policy is sure similar. Do you like to make war on tactics? Then you probably buy in to the "war on terrorism" method of enflaming the US to kill innocent people. Collateral damage ok? Hmm.. who is the real moral slug?
Bob D
October 11th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Stevieb,
Your arguments have too much sound logic in them for me to disagree or even debate with them. Maybe I can attack you. What does the b in Stevie b stand for brainless? (just kidding).
Seriously, you do raise one interesting point. Nations can get away with actions that would be immoral for mere people. And politicians who get buy-in from their constituents can drive a nation to evil and come off scot free. Except in the uncivilized mid 20th century third world. There they overthrew and hung the tyrants only a few years after a majority of the people supported their murders. Now they can sit back and have the US to overthrow their tyrants!
Nelson_2008
October 11th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
Idiot, you keep changing the context/meaning and then you accuse me of twisting your words.____In the sense of your first usage of the phrase "buy in", you were apparently referring to a well-intentioned person, e.g., Justin, who might try to gain the acceptance of others he is trying to influence by adopting a stance he doesn't necessarily agree with, but which apparently appeals to the biases/dogmatic beliefs of the target audience.____Harry's reply to you indicates that's how he took your comment as well. Harry was obviously talking about the failure of what you call "buy-in" as a strategy to help accomplish something *good* in the area of anti-interventionism. ____Then you turn around and you use the phrase in the sense of a dishonest politician, e.g., Bill Clinton, acting in bad faith, i.e., lying, to accomplish some selfish, immoral purpose. Yes, politicians lie and cheat and steal and they usually benefit from it. Watering down the basis of a just cause in pursuit of a noble end is not the same thing as a typical politician's typical deception for personal gain. So what's your point, goofball?
Nelson_2008
October 11th, 2011 at 4:27 pm
"Where did I give somebody the right to fight back? You did. It wasn't my idea to say that nobody can fight back."
Well then exactly WTF are you trying to say, goofball? (This is why I hate trying to have a "discussion" with mental defectives such as yourself. If you don't even know what your point is, how am I supposed to)?
Nelson_2008
October 11th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
Justin wrote: "In its ferocity and scope, America’s post-9/11 rampage has no precedent in history."
The post-9/11 rampage as per the pre-9/11 plan: the PNAC plan for world rule, that is.
Which reminds me of page 28 of the official document "The National Security Strategy Of The United States Of America [for 2002]", wherein the U.S. government describes the events of 9/11 as being a good thing – creating for the government some "vast, new opportunities".
I wonder if Osama bin Laden knew, as he plotted and schemed (if he was in fact responsible), that he would be handing the world to some evil people, on a silver platter, by giving them precisely what they needed and wanted, to overthrow the rule of law and use their U.S. puppet government to carry out their plan for global conquest?
Harry
October 11th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
Osama didn't give it to them. The American people gave it to them. He believed our claim to be a democracy, informed by a free and independent press and constrained by a population with integrity.
Bob D
October 12th, 2011 at 7:18 am
Either your reading comprehension is right between moron and idiot or you are being disengenuous. "Turning the other cheek" and "two wrongs not making a right" make a point that revenge is wrong on either side of the conflict(you call it fighting back, I call it revenge) very clear.
I won't make any other points beyond this answer. It is obvously too complicated for your first grade reading level or your two-year old emotional maturity.
Bob D
October 12th, 2011 at 7:30 am
So you think Bill Clinton was trying to get buy-in with the Monica Lewinsky episode? Ridiculous. No I was talking about his episode with Newt and the government shutdown when he defeated him and got him to resign. Sorry I thought that was obvious but now I recognize mental two year olds need to be spoon fed such obvious points. And that doesn't put me in the position of defending Bill Clinton or his tactics, only recognizing the reality of Clinton's victory. Can you keep up with that? Say all you want about how evil Clinton is, I'm sure it doesn't bother him and I agree with you.
Nelson_2008
October 13th, 2011 at 7:22 am
Nothing so melodramatic Chump. Apparently it's just a case of you acting like the infantile, contrary a**hole that you obviously are.
By the way, sh*t-for-brains, please point out where I said anything about "revenge". In any case, that someone "fights back" or "retaliates", especially with regard to state sponsored aggression, is a morally justifiable act of self-defense; your profound ignorance and moral incompetence notwithstanding.
Lastly, if you really believed in the principle of "turning the other cheek", as you imply, you wouldn't be trying to insult me for calling you on your bullsh*t, now would you, goofball?
Nelson_2008
October 13th, 2011 at 7:29 am
Yo sh*t-for-brains, your juvenile bullsh*t contrariness is self-refuting. Anyone can read the incoherent drivel you wrote above and see for themselves what a consummate moron and hapless liar you are.
BTW, thanks for providing another example of your "turning the other cheek" philosophy.
Bob D
October 13th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
On your last point I believe "sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me". You support the breaking of bones (killing) in what your thinly veiled rhetoric calls retaliation. But I label it as what it is your national thirst for revenge. I hardly think that equates with my calling you names. In spite of that, notice you are the one who is cursing. Yet I am the one who admitts his sins.