The latest Western military intervention in the Arab world is occasioned by the supposedly imminent crushing of the Libyan rebels by Muammar Gadhafi’s mercenary army. This new crusade, launched amid an orgy of moralizing, on Thursday received the official imprimatur of the UN Security Council, which voted in favor of a resolution calling for a "no fly zone," and "all necessary measures" to stop the projected slaughter short of sending in an "occupying army." It’s now a race to see whether the British or the French will get in first licks.
The run-up to all this was instructive. The US, the Brits, the French, and an Arab League miraculously awakened to the concept of morality made a great show of pushing for UN intervention – an action many doubted the Security Council would take, due to the supposedly intransigent opposition of the Russians and the Chinese. The catalytic moment occurred with the call for intervention by the Arab League.
Leslie Gelb, the grand old man of foreign policy wonkery – and head of the influential Council on Foreign Relations – noted this, and called their bluff:
"These strategic moralists fail to note one insidious and self-damning fact: They would have no trouble doing the job all by themselves. They possess hundreds upon hundreds of frontline jet fighters and the necessary air bases—in sum, full air superiority over Libya."
So, why don’t they do it? Again, Gelb has the answer:
"For argument’s sake, let’s pretend that Beijing and Moscow suffer a bout of hallucinatory humanitarianism or are mightily impressed by the Arab League’s endorsement of the no-fly zone, and decide not to block it. Guess who draws the short straw and would be expected to perform the no-flying gig? Right again, Dr. Watson: the United States of America.
"There’s the ultimate punch line: The United States of America will do it. Boy, the world really has our number."
There are ample reasons for this expectation. Sentiment in favor of US military intervention in Libya may not go very deep, but certainly the movement has ideological breadth. It extends from the usual suspects on the neoconservative right to Senator John "I was for it before I was against it" Kerry, and even including some on what used to be the "far left." (Although, to be "fair," I’ll note that, among ostensible Marxists, Gadhafi’s alleged virtues are being rediscovered.)
Each of these pro-intervention political factions has some ideological stake in what they imagine will be the outcome. For the neoconservatives, any and all displays of US military power are to be supported, at least in theory. Kerry supports intervention – air strikes, at the very least – for the same reason he supported Bill Clinton’s war in the Balkans: on "humanitarian" grounds. In carrying the banner of the let’s-liberate-Libya league (LLLL) amongst conventional Democrats, Kerry anticipated the direction the White House was headed, and got ahead of the curve. (Could he be angling to be the replacement if the "Dump Biden" movement gathers more steam?)
As it turned out, the outcome of the Security Council vote was by no means as certain as Gelb assumed. The resolution, crafted by the Brits, the French, and the Lebanese, authorizes a no-fly "over Libya," but my guess is this means, at first, a no-go zone over Benghazi, and air strikes targeting Gadhafi’s advancing troops. The resolution also rules out an "occupying army" on any part of Libyan soil – but, then again, what’s an "occupying army" as opposed to, say, an "army of liberation"?
The Guardian, first out with the news the interventionists had the vote, describes the Obama administration as "dithering." The President is depicted as having been dragged into this by the Brits, the French – and, I would imagine, Hillary Clinton, whose role in nagging Bill into bombing Belgrade is well-known. I can’t think of a reason why she’d make an exception for Tripoli.
Now that the way has been cleared for the attack to begin, we’ll soon have a test of the second — most important — part of Gelb’s thesis, and discover the answer to the vital question of whether the world really does have our number.
Just what military role the US will play is not yet clear: in any case, the part played by the Pentagon is bound to be downplayed. There is no mention of this question in the Guardian’s reporting, although we are told:
"Several Arab countries have promised to provide planes, but insisted on their identity being withheld until the resolution was passed. Speculation as to which countries would participate included Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar."
As Saudi soldiers march in to keep "order" in Bahrain, invading the country and shooting peaceful protesters pointblank, their expensive American-made state-of-the-art air force will stand sentinel over Benghazi, while Saudi petrodollars flow to the rebel camp, per Washington’s request.
That Egypt was left off the list of probable Arab participants – Egypt with its huge arsenal of American-bought-and-paid for weaponry, and its cadre of US-trained military officers – is telling: it tells us the Americans are going to be asked to do the heavy lifting, albeit behind the scenes, with the Brits and the Frenchies up front, smiling for the cameras.
The bubble over Benghazi, once established, will push outward, expanding inevitably to include the entire country. The question is: does the United States want to get dragged in by our warlike allies, who are all too eager to display their militant virtue on the international stage? Or will the President let our vainglorious allies take most of the "credit," with the US role confined to mere rhetorical and back-up support?
The UN resolution effectively bisects the country formerly known as Libya, for the moment, into its natural and historical constituents: Cyrenaica and Tripolitania (with the southern Fezzan region up for grabs.) In short, what the UN created, in 1951 – the completely made up "country" of Libya – the UN is pulling asunder. Like a mad doctor, crazily trying to undo the results of a botched operation.
In a recent appearance on Judge Napolitano’s "Freedom Watch," I said President Obama is too smart to go to war with another Arab country, and predicted he wouldn’t do it. I still maintain the US role is going to be minimal, militarily — at least initially. Yet, once the action begins, the pressure to do more, to expand the Benghazi bubble, will increase, and what began as a limited military operation will evolve rather rapidly into a full-scale ground war.
At that point, the President of the United States will have to decide whether he wants to fight a war in order to hand the Middle East over to the Saudis – even as they shoot down protesters in the streets of Bahrain.
Which raises the question: What will the UN do about poor forgotten bloodied Bahrain? Will John Kerry, the Arab League, and the Bill Kristols of this world demand Security Council approval for air strikes on King Hamad’s palace? Oh, the suspense is killing me.
The Financial Times cites French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe as saying "it was an important and historic moment for the UN to stand up against dictators willing to attack their own people to stifle democracy. ‘If we did not do what we are doing now, we would be ashamed.’" As the Arab Awakening challenges the power of the Arab League – a sorry collection of monarchs and assorted despots – the true extent of Messr. Juppe’s shamefulness will stand revealed, in all its shameless glory.
The Benghazi bubble – the high expectations of the rebels, and the Western public – is bound to burst. It’s only a question of when. Gadhafi has real support in Tripoli and among some of the southern clans. As the West gets drawn into an increasingly complicated civil war, and the omens of disaster fly overhead, there is still time for President Obama – or Congress – to pull us back from the brink.
I might add, by the way, that by voting for this UN resolution, the administration has implicitly committed us to go to war without a debate in Congress, never mind a vote. But that’s nothing new. George Bush Senior went to the UN to ask permission to go to war for the Emir of Kuwait’s sake before he ever went to Congress. Obama is merely following a by now well-established tradition. The US government is answerable in this matter to all peoples other than its own.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Antiwar.com vs. the FBI – May 21st, 2013
- Two Cheers for ‘Isolationism’ – May 19th, 2013
- Our Civil Liberties, RIP – May 16th, 2013
- Raping the World – May 14th, 2013
- The Price of Peace – May 12th, 2013





skulz fontaine
March 17th, 2011 at 9:49 pm
"Benghazi bubble." That's a good one Mr. Justin. Bust that bubble will. No doubt. Problem is, who gets to wear the bubbles skin?
Johnny in Wi.
March 17th, 2011 at 9:54 pm
Here we go off to another blunder that we won't be out of for decades. Gaddafi is a murdering crackpot but who will replace him and how long can he hold out if there is no invasion? Saddam Hussain lasted a long time until they invaded. The best solution was always not getting involved.
Jan Burton
March 17th, 2011 at 10:48 pm
Great so now the West will "own" Libya's future for 20-30 years. Everything the rebels do will be seen as the west's fault.
Sheesh….
The USA had better stay out of this. Let someone else handle it for a change.
Lee M
March 17th, 2011 at 11:04 pm
I've been a reader, supporter and contributor to Antiwar.com for half a dozen years. I have great respect for Justin Raimondo's judgment on issues of war and empire. I have actively opposed our two wars for oil against Iraq–and for God knows what in Afghanistan. But in this case, I heartily support the decision to come to the aid of the pro-democracy forces in Libya. And by extension the movement for change ignited by a Tunisian vegetable vendor that is currently sweeping the Middle East.
The only thing that keeps Muammar Gadhafi is power is his willingness to resort to brutality to suppress the Libyan people's desire for a better life without him. If Gadhafi prevails, the message to other Arab despots will be that they, too, can maintain power by brutally repressing pro-democracy protesters. After all the carnage we've brought to the Arab and Muslim worlds, and most particularly to Iraq and Afghanistan, finally we have a chance to use our military might to promote a movement for democratic freedom in the Middle East.
Maybe it won’t work. But at least the United States for once will have taken the side of the good guys.
John_Muhammad
March 17th, 2011 at 11:05 pm
The French and British are well capable of handling this on their own; I suggest the US do nothing but continue the AWACS flights and provide nothing but intelligence (yes, the military kind) to whoever the mission falls to.
We've shouldered the burdens of world policing for long enough (albeit by our own choosing); it's time to hand over some of these jobs to other nations.
liberranter
March 17th, 2011 at 11:27 pm
Will intervention in the Libyan quagmire be the final straw the breaks the Amerikan Empire's back? Let us hope and pray that this be the case.
I. Susanin
March 17th, 2011 at 11:38 pm
I think Mr. Raimondo is incorrectly viewing the US as some kind of hostage in this situation, if anything the US has tried for many years to remove Qaddafi and install a puppet who would "privatize" all of Libya's oil and gas companies and hand over control to major Western corporations. And referring to the Libyan soldiers loyal to their country(not to opportunistic 5th column "rebel leaders") as "mercenaries" he only repeats the anti-Libyan propaganda coming from major Western media.
guest
March 18th, 2011 at 12:24 am
a very large number of Gaddafi's forces are indeed African mercenaries from countries like Chad and the Sudan and are not "Libyan soldiers loyal to their country". Regardless of our feelings on western intervention in this civil war, let's not paint Gaddafi as some kind of heroic anti-imperialist. He's a brutal dictator who is detested by the majority of his people and the rebellion is a genuine manifestation of their sentiment.
Mackey
March 18th, 2011 at 12:25 am
Interventions in Kosovo and now in Libya are good things to do, unlike wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. My congratulations to members of the United Nations, that voted for this resoloution.
Bodkin
March 18th, 2011 at 12:56 am
"the true extent of Messr. Juppe’s shamefulness will stand revealed, in all its shameless glory"
Raimondo's own lack of shame stands revealed. Two columns ago, he claimed that the Libyan rebels are hostile to Western intervention; that they've basically put up a sign reading "No Trespassing". This was total BS designed to advance an anti-interventionist position. He has shown that he's not above lying in order to sway readers to his point of view.
After all, it's been plain as day that the rebels have been BEGGING for Western aid. They wanted it so badly they started CELEBRATING the moment the UN voted on the no-fly zone. Anybody watching the BBC would have witnessed their jubilation.
The truth is, I agree with Raimondo and others that this is not the USA's war to fight. Egypt is right next door with a massive military and a populace presumably sympathetic to the rebels. This is THEIR fight. But it was Raimondo who shamelessly stooped to lying in order to justify his stance.
Kind of makes you wonder: What ELSE has he been lying about?
jackbootstate
March 18th, 2011 at 2:27 am
"Which raises the question: What will the UN do about poor forgotten bloodied Bahrain? Will John Kerry, the Arab League, and the Bill Kristols of this world demand Security Council approval for air strikes on King Hamad’s palace? Oh, the suspense is killing me…."
Bingo. When the inevitable bloodshed begins unfolding in Bahrain, don't expect a similar response from Washington and the "international community". Ditto if the Sauds are faced with a rebellion and they put it down Qaddafi style. Qaddafi has a point if he feels like he is being thrown overboard by Washington and the EU unfairly. He actually is putting up a good showing when it comes to providing a blue print for repression that the rest of the regions dictators will no doubt imitate. But he is the most eccentric of the dictators of the regions, and the most unliked by the West. It looks like his four decades of triangulation, keeping Libya together with an iron fist, pretending to be a "revolutionary", and having good relations with the West, are about get crushed once and for all by foreign invasion. And it all would have worked about for Qaddafi and family if it hadn't been for those meddling revolutionaries in Tunisia and Egypt giving the Libyan people ideas!
Tempting as it might be to climb aboard the intervention bandwagon, principled anti-interventionists must avoid it. In the long run this intervention that is about the happen will do more damage than good to Libya's revolutionary movement.
Sam
March 18th, 2011 at 2:59 am
Qaddafi has real support in the west,south,from some tribes in the east and is very popular in Africa. Any western intervention will be seen as neocolonial motivated by oil and gas. And why not in Bahrain, Yemen and Saudi Arabia?Why was America silent during Lebanon II and Cast Lead when cilivlians get bombed too?
jackbootstate
March 18th, 2011 at 3:33 am
Agree. Difficult to imagine anybody against Western intervention actually liking Gaddafi, and not cheering on the revolutionaries. I don't think Gaddafi's "I'm a revolutionary" bit is winning too many followers these days. Given his youth and the year he took power in Libya, 1969, it was almost inevitable that he would proclaim himself a "revolutionary". He produced his own knock off of Mao's Little Red Book, and has been posturing against anti-Western imperialism ever since his coup. Four decades later most Libyans have seen very little of their nation's considerable oil wealth, and they're right to blame the looting dictator in Tripoli for their poverty.
Wootie Berster
March 18th, 2011 at 4:11 am
"Brits" and "Frenchies".. is that a less acidic way of saying "Limeys" and "Frogs"? As a product of both those illustrious races I rather object to your silly way of denigrating the STATES involved. We are not those STATES. Your displeasure is with the current governments of those nations (which are in fact dominated and controlled by American banking interests), those states. Why print smirking and insulting ethnic terms like this which denigrate millions of innocent citizens of those countries? At best it's superfluous to the issues; at worst it's American jingoist racist hooey supposed to appeal to the ignorant troglodyte bottom feeders of the extreme right. Mr. Raimondo.. you are now a worldwide voice. Don't spoil your image to us by pissing on our shoes in order to establish your bonafides with a section of the political spectrum that is always going to hate your guts no matter what you do. You're too intelligent for this.
geo1671
March 18th, 2011 at 4:28 am
Qaddafi's recent blunder–Wanted his millions of dollars bribe money paid back "pronto" from France's PM SourKozy's piggybank ( MOSSAD agent Nicolas Sarkozy ). A set up A charade! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkVKKiAeOjw
Qaddafi's son–just imagine if he ever replaces his dad–what a meansonofabitch :^(
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 18th, 2011 at 4:43 am
The official press release and the full text of the resolution:
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.do…
The current members (for the list of the ten countries who voted for the resolution):
http://www.un.org/sc/members.asp
Note that Bosnia-Herzegovina Muslims hold a personal grudge against Gadhafi and that Nigeria or Gabon can hardly be called democracies.
Kudos to Germany for having abstained.
And Saudis implementing a "humanitarian" mission, that's truly laughable.
I can't wait to see who will replace Gadhafi if the intervention is successful. Though they probably won't be human organ traders, procurers or drug traffickers like in Kosovo.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 18th, 2011 at 5:27 am
Repost of my comment on the news published by Jason Ditz.
The USA + former colonial powers UK, France, Portugal + puppets Bosnia and Herzegovina, Lebanon, Colombia + "democracies" Nigeria, Gabon + South Africa voted for the resolution. BRIC (Brazil – Portugal's former colony, Russia, India – UK former colony, China) + Germany abstained (roughly half of the world population).
Gadhafi may be a nut, but he has a real pack of a**holes against him.
Greg
March 18th, 2011 at 5:41 am
"I have actively opposed our two wars for oil against Iraq"
(step back 10 years)
The only thing that keeps Saddam Hussein is power is his willingness to resort to brutality to suppress the Iraqi people's desire for a better life without him. If Hussein prevails, the message to other Arab despots will be that they, too, can maintain power by brutally repressing pro-democracy protesters.
How could you have possibly opposed the Iraq war when your logic for intervening in Libya matches the logic used to invade Iraq almost perfectly?
bogi666
March 18th, 2011 at 5:55 am
Not to mention the numerous Zionist's slaughters in Gaza.
Terrance&Philip
March 18th, 2011 at 6:22 am
The good guys???? You mean like our "friends," the Saudi royal house????
While we can't pay our bills, haven't the money to provide adequate medical care for military personnel maimed and injured in our illegal wars, don't have two extra nickels to provide home heating oil for penurious seniors (the list goes on and on), everyone advocating we engage in another futile war in Libya is either a liar or a fool.
bogi666
March 18th, 2011 at 6:23 am
Why Libya? It's to provide cover for the repression taking place in Bahrain. Saudi's are already in place and with the U.S. fleet locating there, the USG is not going to let anything change this cozy arrangement. Create a distraction, Libya, and let the Saudi's protect their Sunni brethren from the majority population of Shia, to continue the dictatorship already lavishly bribed and bribing the USG.
Terrance&Philip
March 18th, 2011 at 6:26 am
"He's[Gaddafi] a brutal dictator who is detested by the majority of his people and the rebellion is a genuine manifestation of their sentiment."
Of course he is, but that doesn't mean we have to commit blood and treasure to remove him. Let someone else do it if they must. Or, if people feel that strongly about it, let them take up arms privately and go join the rebels. (I'm sure Johnny McCain and Charlie Krauthammer would be glad for the chance to finally do their bit.)
Terrance&Philip
March 18th, 2011 at 6:27 am
So, when will you be embarking for Ben-Ghazi????
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 18th, 2011 at 6:47 am
And the BBC is a reliable source of information? I concede that they make the best wild-life documentaries in the world, but when it comes to information… Though I must admit also that they're really good at spinning.
scott
March 18th, 2011 at 6:48 am
The quote you've focused on sort of proves that some action is the right choice, just as our inaction is wrong in Bahrain. I addressed and supported trying to kill Ghaddaffi with air power, I'd support the same in Bahrain. Actually, I don't really have a problem with killing Old Kings for general purposes. I wish our wars were fought with our presidents and kings and not our noble citizens.
Anyway, if you don't support action in either case, than the Bahrain example doesn't present a dichotomy. Really, you've made the perfect the enemy of the good. I totally share your concerns about invasion, the US Empire and all of that. But, since we have the assets in place, here I use "we" expansively. Presumably Europe could do this, and regardless it will look as though we approved of this.
scott
March 18th, 2011 at 6:49 am
Nor any mention of Israeli mercenaries and Israeli supplied mercenaries.
skulz fontaine
March 18th, 2011 at 7:29 am
Hi bogi666:
Damn straight. So by the genius UNSC's thinking, 'no-fly zone' over Libya cause you know, Muammar's a bad guy and then of course Bahrain is in that Saudi sphere of dictatorial control so Saudi Arabia INVADES Bahrain and that's okie-dokie. One thing is for certain at the United Nations Security Command, "we decide which is right and whom is ripe for destruction."
Sam Lowry
March 18th, 2011 at 7:34 am
There are many articles in the mainstream media that are obviously conceived and planted by government-funded public-relations firms. I often wonder how many posts in the comment sections of blogs also fall into this category. What long-time reader of Raimondo would ever suffer under the delusion that any U.S. foreign military intervention could possibly ever be motivated by genuinely benevolent intentions, let alone one in a country that produces 2% of the world's oil?
RobertB
March 18th, 2011 at 7:41 am
The so-called Egyptian 'protesters' just told Clinton to take a walk after useful idiot USA sort of supported them (or not, pending the outcome).
Celebrations of the mob do not useful allies make.
liveload
March 18th, 2011 at 7:41 am
Egypt? Really?
Not to insult you or anything, but that's not exactly a well thought out point of view.
They don't even have a constitution hashed out yet and you already want them to begin intervening in other people's revolutions?
Guest
March 18th, 2011 at 7:48 am
I find your analysis interesting with respect to the statement "The only thing that keeps Muammar Gadhafi is power is his willingness to resort to brutality to suppress the Libyan people".
I find this interesting because you seem all to willing to apply this to Libya, but neglect to mention that this is the very power of governments over the people they "rule".
If you choose to run a red light in America, have you harmed anyone? No, but the "state" will say you committed an "Infraction" and sue you over it (traffic ticket – yes, it is in fact a lawsuit, that's why you get/need a lawyer to fight it). If you don't follow through, your license will be suspended. If you continue to drive and get caught, you are subject to arrest and prosecution. If you resist this, you are subject to state-sponsored violence.
With the exception of the mundane, innocuous beginnings of this scenario, the final outcome is the same. The "state" exercising the final arbiter of all situations, the power of violence. "Brutality" is just a measurement of the amount of violence and a moral judgment as to the appropriateness of such.
So given the truth of this, "The only thing that keeps ANY GOVERNMENT in power is their willingness to resort to brutality (violence) to suppress the (Fill in the blank) people. When the global body-politic overstands this, then we will have real change, not "Color Revolutions" backed by the same ole' shit we've been seeing for the last 2000 years.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 18th, 2011 at 7:52 am
Btw, how come rebels in Libya are equipped with Stingers. They even downed a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-24 with one?
Michael Kenny
March 18th, 2011 at 8:07 am
The European end of all this is a lovely example of countries pursuing their own interests which the US would do well to follow. France has departmental elections on Sunday and polls show the Front National beating Sarko's UMP, which, by virtue of the electoral system, could throw seats to the socialists. The FN's speciaility is Arab-bashing, so Sarko is saying "I can bash Arabs better than you"! In Britain, Cameron aways has to watch the crazies in his own party, notbaly Hague and Fox, so he is letting them burnn their fingers in Libya, the better to shut them up later. Russia sees no reason to stop the collapsing US superpower from stewing in its own folly. None of them have the slighest interest in "protecting" Libyans. They are protecting the interests of their own citizens, which is what governments are supposed to do.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 18th, 2011 at 8:28 am
Btw, it really would be hilarious if a French plane got downed by a French made http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotale_%28missile%2… system.
Bodkin
March 18th, 2011 at 8:49 am
I just mentioned the BBC as one example. It was all over TV and the net. And it wasn't just the post-vote celebrations which indicated the desire of rebels for outside intervention. They've been begging for help for weeks.
Come on, this isn't rocket science. People in dire need ask for help. At first, when the rebels made gains, they defiantly waved signs indicating they wanted no outside help (and I saw this on the BBC too; you probably won't challenge THAT, will you?). But as soon as the situation became desperate for the rebels, they predictably started begging for help.
There's a groupthink at work here which projects anti-interventionist ideology on to others, regardless of their circumstances. Most unwise. You'll only be correct part of the time.
Bodkin
March 18th, 2011 at 8:52 am
Whether they'd be good allies is a different point. The point here is whether or not they wanted outside help. At first, they didn't. When things got desperate, they did. I presume there have been massacres that terrified the rebels and reminded them how ruthless their leaders are.
mickperry
March 18th, 2011 at 8:57 am
Conflicting viewpoints and even conflicting histories abound of Gadafhi's achievements. There can be no doubt that they have been favourably and comparatively significant when looking to the rest of Africa, but even a 5% malnutrition rate ought to be unacceptable in a country of only six and a half million people. That's probably about three quarters the size of the population of London after all, and Libya's revenues from oil profits are vast. Having infant mortality rates similar to those in the Israeli occupied territories of Palestine is also not something to be proud of either. Meanwhile, the history of Libya is interesting, but oddly enough nowhere in Justin's recent encyclopaedic recantings does he mention Shock and Awe, which happened around 2003 while old Muomar was doing what? Getting down and doing his thing on the Caribbean Isle of St Bart's, or did that come later? But it was when the US invaded and occupied Iraq, destroying Saddam's regime along the way. Serious shit for another by now largely friendless and isolated dictator, and so it was this change of circumstances which probably forced the man to change course and introduce 'neo liberal' reforms.; aka 'privatisation' into Libya. He invited the economic hit men from the West in, and the Libyan people have had six or seven years of their social readjustment by now, and that's probably why they're ready to rise up. Is the rebellion being orchestrated? The evidence suggests yes; Iran, 1953 style.
Bodkin
March 18th, 2011 at 9:18 am
Arabs want to help their fellow Arabs, don't they? The Arab League was key to the no-fly zone vote. Isn't Egypt a member? Reports say Qatar and the UAE are preparing to send forces. If those tiny countries can help their fellow Arabs, why the heck wouldn't Egypt, which has the MOST POWERFUL MILITARY of any Arab nation?
And since when has the lack of a constitution held back countries from executing a military operation? Not to insult you or anything, but that's not exactly a well thought out point of view.
Bodkin
March 18th, 2011 at 9:36 am
"roughly half of the world population"
Are you a comedian? Since when do these votes reflect the wills of nations rather than governments? If they coincide, it's just a coincidence.
You probably think a UN vote reflects popular will only when you deem the vote wise. I assume you think it reflects only the will of corrupt governments when you deem the vote wrong-headed. For example, when the USA exercised its veto to protect Israel recently, do you believe that was an expression of the will of every American?
Terrance&Philip
March 18th, 2011 at 9:47 am
For all those so gung-ho to go to Ben-ghazi, I have but one question: How soon before we
establish no-fly zones to support the protesters in Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain???
Surely the people protesting against the oppressive governments in these three lands deserve our military support to overthrow their respective dictators.
Terrance&Philip
March 18th, 2011 at 9:50 am
The BBC should stick to making dramas about dead monarchs and dead emporers. Beyond that, they're out of their metier.
conumishu
March 18th, 2011 at 9:51 am
No, Justin is just wrong about certain things, nothing to be ashamed of. Unlike the blood on their hands interventionists.
If Justin took for genuine the MI6 show at Benghazi is his choice and you can't blame someone for the lies of others. He just should be more skeptical about certain rebels' honesty.
While I feel the partition of Libya, if it happens, will be motivated by western corporations interests and result in no profit for the libyans (or tripolitanians or whoever) and I think Justin's looking for precedents in history actually helps (unwillingly and partialy) justify a vile operation masterminded in the same places where, decades ago, the current borders of Libya were drawn, the conclusion is the same: all foregin interventions are bad. Covert or open, they never bring peace and justice, only plant the seeds for future conflicts, maybe more violent than those "prevented" or "subdued".
Terrance&Philip
March 18th, 2011 at 9:51 am
Anyone telling Frau Clinton to take a walk deserves a lot of respect. It's just another lesson we could learn from them.
conumishu
March 18th, 2011 at 10:15 am
Yea, but who is foolish enough to let decide France, Britain, US (the respectively yapping, schemming and "humble") interventionists which is the good side? Who is foolish enough to trust them with the time of day, let alone decisions in matters of life and death?
I also think Russia, China, India, Brazil, Germany abstaining from vote also ilustrates a cynical attitude (understandable but immoral) towards both Libya (sacrificed) and the suicidal trio, viewed as the main threat to their strategic interests. Resentments will nevertheless grow on all sides.
RickR30
March 18th, 2011 at 10:31 am
If we get into the business of doing the right thing, or what seems to look like the right thing at some point, always gets us in trouble. Yes, it's nasty to see some dictator somewhere, butchering his own people (is sending young people to die elsewhere just as nasty?) but why does the solution rest in our hands. The best way to avoid these moral dilemmas is by not getting involved to begin with. Let the neighbors sort it out, let those who think this is important to them worry about it. What's guaranteeing that our involvement will make for a better outcome? Nothing, and it costs us money and lives.
Duglarri
March 18th, 2011 at 10:43 am
Anticipating likely outcomes depends on correctly identifying historical precedents, and in terms of analogies from history, I think it's worth pointing out that what we are witnessing in the middle east is not democratic revolution or ideological awakening- in fact, what we're seeing is a peasant revolt.
Down through history the farmers have from time to time risen up against the thugs in the castles. After one rape or murder too many, they've taken their flails and pitchforks and pulled the nearest contingent of the king's men off their horses, stormed the local castle, and found themselves free. Briefly.
After a few days to get organized the head thief gets his knights together, arrives in force, scatters the rabble, and hangs the ringleaders. And all goes back to "normal".
That's what's happening in Libya now: mile-long convoys of tanks, ammunition, equipment, food, ambulances heading to the front on the government side; scattered and disorganized peasants on the other.
The men on horseback always win. Unless you're Swiss with a pike.
Good that we're getting in on the losing side at just the right time.
RickR30
March 18th, 2011 at 10:44 am
"does the United States want to get dragged in"
"Obama is too smart to go to war with another Arab country"
If there's a chance for our military to get involved, THEY will want to get dragged in, heck, they'll volunteer. If someone is shooting a round anywhere they want to play. They think it's a video game, they want to play and win, to show themselves and each other how macho they are.
What Obama, thinks or wants is irrelevant. He has no choice in the matter, not say. If the MIC decides to fight an all out war in Libya or anywhere else, he has to obey their orders. We've seen this plenty of times. He's not the kind of leader to make policy and order others to do so. On the contrary, he's bossed around by everyone. It's his job to give a pretty speech to convince his braindead fans that everything he does is great.
If this happens, we'll see a couple of speeches. The first saying that we'll only play a support role. The second that we'll fly planes but absolutely no boots on the ground. The third that there'll be boots on the ground but only for a short time. The fourth that we'll have to stay there longer (i.e. forever). And of all this is absolutely the right thing to do, moral, in consensus with the world community, our allies, the UN, the EU, the AA, AAA, AARP, etc. It will all be great and wonderful. The American people will go right along with it while disagreeing in private. The deficit will continue to explode as will the offense budget, as will inflation. But there'll be no money for Social Security, Medicare, border patrol, etc.
andy
March 18th, 2011 at 11:04 am
Chickenhawk.
conumishu
March 18th, 2011 at 11:04 am
"Protecting the interests of their own citizens" by selectively killing people in other countries!?
Which french and british citizens' interests are protected in this case?
conumishu
March 18th, 2011 at 11:09 am
They lost one of their best pilots of the time, many years ago, in Chad, fighting against libyan intervention (he, he) there. I remember I saw some spectacular photos taken there.
didi
March 18th, 2011 at 12:38 pm
TOO bad the problems of Yemen, Bahrain, and Japan's reactors can't be solved with Sorties.. obama would have ordered them on day one.. instead he focuses on the 'easy problem' which is the michael jackson lookalike in libya, bombing stuff is just so easy to do afterall.
Bodkin
March 18th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
I don't think someone who makes his living scouring the news for stories could possibly not have known that Libyan rebels have been begging for outside intervention. If I knew it, Raimondo knew it. His cover-up is indefensible. He advanced an argument knowing full well he was misrepresenting reality.
If he's capable of doing this once, he's probably done it repeatedly, and will do so again.
If what YOU claim is true, and he was simply "wrong", that suggests a level of incompetence and profound lack of awareness that simply isn't plausible. I'm actually giving him more credit than you are, because I don't think someone as clued in as Raimondo could have been so in the dark. Mainstream media orgs have been broadcasting the rebels' urgent requests for help for weeks.
You're not doing your own credibility any good by pretending Raimondo was simply "wrong".
David
March 18th, 2011 at 7:19 pm
I'll bet the North Africans can't wait to get the French back.
conumishu
March 18th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
I agree that all (maybe 10) faces we saw on television asked for foreign intervention, including a no-fly zone when no G. airplane attacked anything (according to russian and US top military). Apparently, those who captured the british (I'd guess at least another 10) didn't want the foreign intervention. So the people (all 20 of them) was at most split on the issue. But those capturing the SAS looked more determined (even if I admit the CNN kind can be very scary too, especially that Amanpour lady).
james
March 18th, 2011 at 11:46 pm
David, do you really think the French, British, you fill the blank, havde ever left?
Toba
March 19th, 2011 at 4:56 am
BRIC should be ashamed of themselves. Veto the resolution. Abstaining is nothing more than tacit approval. The idiot ,Gaddafi could have walked away with his life and a shattered country with him ruling the eastern section but his stupid pride seems to have gotten the better of him since he insists on trying to put Humpty together again. Nigeria's vote isn't surprising at all since those british colonial types have been taught from birth to never have a sense of innovation or ingenuity but to always look for a racket and never do anything unless the British,American or any other European nation have tried it first. True slaves, the entire British Commonwealth.
As for South Africa,disgusting.One would think that the present govt would insist on doing the right thing because of their experiences but alas! the world still suffers from want of any true example or leadership.
In the end, the Arabs will become disgusted with everyone and they will turn to the Islamists whom are quietly waiting patiently for that moment.
Bodkin
March 19th, 2011 at 5:26 am
You're cherry-picking facts to advance the argument you insist on making. You need to distort reality to promote a particular narrative. This is agenda-driven commentary.
Raimondo is guilty of it too, and it happens every day here with respect to Israel.
It's a tactic for propagandists, not journalists.
bogi666
March 19th, 2011 at 5:34 am
It won't be long before Gaddafi's name is morphed into Qaedaffi, like in al Qaedaffi.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 19th, 2011 at 7:53 am
Libya maps:
http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2011/03/19/c7fb35a0…
http://arthurzbygniew.blogspot.com/2011/02/libya-…
freshnotbitter
March 19th, 2011 at 8:03 am
Obama should have made sure the Eastern rebels had the arms to repel Gaddafi's assault (basically anti-armor weaponry, a Springfield rifle will not do) and advisers to organize a defence. I'd be surprised if the Egyptians would not have allowed the use of their territory.
We just are not all that quick. I think the CIA budget is $50 billion a year. Do you feel like you got your money's worth?
freshnotbitter
March 19th, 2011 at 8:14 am
The people who abstained have separatist issues of their own (Kashmir, Tibet, Chechnya).
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 19th, 2011 at 9:13 am
Among the BRIC, only Russia and China have the power of veto. As I wrote in comments I made on other articles here, I never expected them didn't use because they made their own cynical calculations.
Historically, within the Ottoman Empire, as an Italian colony or as a Kingdom, Libya has been divided into three provinces, Tripolitania in the North-West, Fezzan in the South-West and Cyrenaica (where Benghazi is) in the Eastern half: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ottoman_Provinc…. Libya has since been subdivided into smaller administrative entities.
I have posted in a comment above two "energy" maps of Libya. Just make a comparison, and you'll see that Gadhafi's fiefdom, Tripolitania, is the least blessed with oil and gas fields.
Is it just a coincidence that the strongest "revolutionary" effort has occurred in parts of Libya with more deposits?
There's every indication that the intervention has been planned long before the vote in the UN.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 19th, 2011 at 9:15 am
Correction: "…I never expected them TO use…".
conumishu
March 19th, 2011 at 10:15 am
Lol, you got me. I'm a propagandist for Gadaffi.
Today, a rebel plane was shot down or exploded from another reason and crushed on the ground. All caught on video. A rebels' plane. Sooooo… the rebels have military planes and people to pilot them. I'm "cherry-picking" the facts, not the media who "igonred" such a sensitive information until today when they couldn't hide it anymore (or maybe blame it on G.). Btw, the no-fly zone applies against rebels aircraft too?
I'm in good company anyway, I have admiral Mullen on my side.
conumishu
March 19th, 2011 at 10:31 am
Not a coincidence at all. And the closest to a vital proof, albeit indirectly, is the speed (I estimate it took around 3 days) the demonstrations (at least we were told they were demonstrations) turned into military occupations of several eastern cities.
Followed by the rush to control the maritime oil and gas terminals.
Followed now by the rush to intervene before rebels lose the last stronghold and symbolic "capital".
By any standard, the "revolution" in Libya has either turned into a coup (a la Trotski) extremely fast or it was an armed rebellion right from the start, with military units switching sides. I think the second variant is more probable.
Since there wasn't much of a preparation in Tripoli – even French commentators admit the uprising there was limited only to one specific neighbourhood – I think the case for secession was the primary choice for foreign interventionists. And I suppose they'll enforce it in the weeks to come.
Why not attempting to crush G. from the start? It's a long discussion but I can see some strong arguments in favor of further redrawing Africa's (for the moment) map to suit certain interests.
As a side note, Chinese were simply chased out and their property looted and destroyed by the rebels – there were several chinese news agencies reports on the matter. Tsk, tsk… bad, bad Chinese, you have no business in Sudan, Libya, not your turf.
JACK
March 19th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
whOOm drove kadafee (NO thanks just had an EXSPRESSO),,,insane & when exzactly (the exzact moment and be specific) will mission creep become terminal, predictions anyone, just put it in the hat, anonyamously ofhorse
jack
March 19th, 2011 at 2:58 pm
mayber it was you JACK,care to be set up, & not in a good way iether,,,hmum,oo,,,
jack
March 19th, 2011 at 3:00 pm
bless those little rat rastard , gas fields,brrrp
SandsWhite
March 19th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
"President Obama is too smart to go to war with another Arab country, and he would do it"
Justin Raimondo
Norwegian Guy
March 19th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
The interventionist war is starting today, and I'm a bit dissapointed that Antiwar.com is not more updated. There's radio silence in both the news section and blog!
jackbootstate
March 19th, 2011 at 3:27 pm
This is nothing more than a way for Washington to insert itself into the uprisings of the Arab world the only way it knows how: Imperialist military intervention. People sympathetic to the Arab Uprising need to recognize that this is a set back that will help to keep the uprisings in check. Washington will use its military power to knock out Qaddafi, while rallying to the defense of the equally loathsome Arabian monarchies.
Vojkan Milosavljevic
March 19th, 2011 at 4:46 pm
Norway seems to be quite enthusiastic about bombing Libyans. What do you think about it?
Lee M
March 19th, 2011 at 9:13 pm
I realize what I've said is unpopular on this site, but let me try to explain my reasoning. The fact the neocons and others used phony concern about about Saddam Hussein's brutality to justify launching two wars in Iraq does not undercut justification for helping to remove a brutal tyrant in Libya. There are some major differences between Iraq and Libya; they are not at all analogous.
Saddam's brutality was a mere pretext for invading Iraq. The real reason was that Saddam was a client dictator who double-crossed the U.S., and we weren't going to let him get away with it. The fact that he was sitting on the second largest oil reserves in the world just sweetened the incentive. Both Iraq wars for oil were a mercenary effort to dominate another country for its resource wealth. The welfare of the Iraqi people never figured into anybody's calculus.
In Libya, by contrast, the pro-democracy rebels have risen up to rid themselves of a dictator. They have been inspired by a movement that is sweeping the Middle East. If that movement can be sustained, it will be the best possible antidote to terrorism. Desperate and hopeless Arab and Muslim youth who might otherwise turn to Bin Laden would have a far better model to inspire them.
Don't get me wrong; I don't want the U.S. to go around intervening in other countries' revolutions and civil wars. But what is sweeping the Middle East seems to be a genuinely popular movement for change. By occasionally lending their effort a fraction of what we devote to imperial domination, we might find we have far fewer people around the world who want to do us harm.
To the skeptics who think I am faking my interest in this site, ask Justin to check the email address I listed in my earlier post. He will confirm that I am a financial contributor to Antiwar.com. I have been an ardent opponent of all of America's imperial wars. I just don't consider this action to be one of them.
Bianca
March 19th, 2011 at 11:45 pm
Let us remember who did not vote for this resolution. Brazil, Russia, China, India and Germany. They just did not want to BURST THE BUBBLE of enthusiasm that emanated from France, UK and US. A swift ABSTAIN from the five of them, and let the eager beavers be happy. They got their war. Yes, I agree that this is a diversion from troubles brewing in assorted monarchies.
But it may also be a diversion from Japan, where the nuclear plant owner seems to be dragging feet in making decision to put an end to reactors. For as long as only few people die from direct exposure to radiation, nobody will ever hold them accountable for releasing clouds of radioactive PARTICLES accross the globe. As our oceans, soil, plants, animals and people become covered by such particles, LITTLE RADIATION means a lot. One particle, just one, finding its way into human tissue is guaranteed to produce cancer. But then, when it happens in the years to come, it will be blamed on anything BUT on this disaster. All they are doing is trying to limit the damage to the reputation of nuclear industry, so they can go ahead and build their flimsy reactors and safety mechanisms. No supervision, or public accountability. Libya is definitely worth it!
Bianca
March 20th, 2011 at 12:03 am
Please stop the canned phrases of humanitariansm and good guys. Nobody is good here. Everybody has a calculation. Here, the rebells are at least armed. Today, they admitted to having fighters in the air, and mistakenly shot down one of their own. I have no idea any more who actually did the bombing of civilian targets Or do we think that civilians that are now killed in Tripoli are less civilians then those in Behghazi. If you really care to do some good, let US use all the influence with the friendly government in Bahrain and Yemen. These are presumably our ALLIES. So, why not convince them to listen to the people. Why not make them STOP killing unarmed protesters from US made helicopers? But now, the death toll is mounting. as the missiles are raining on Libyan cities. Is this in UN Resolution? Where is the cease fire, who will validate it? Arms EMBARGO is in the resolution. But it seems that civilians are the last thing anybody cares about. This is about regime change, plain and simple. Who will protect civilians now?
Bianca
March 20th, 2011 at 12:14 am
Intervention in Kosovo a good thing? Dream on. Kosovo has been and remains a crime-cartel controlled territory. It is a cozy cohabitation of NATO military base (Camp Bondsteel), crime families pretending to be a state, and disoriented Europe runing EULEX, a supposedly law and order mission to CREATE a law obiding land out of criminal enerprise. Before, during and after the indpendence it has been lead by the same Hashim Taci, the head of Drenica crime enterprise that was then declared saintly, by becoming a "liberation army". It mostly "liberated' their victims of Serbian and other nationality of their organs, making money of that lucrative trade. And their old income, trading in opium and heroin is thriving as well. Remember, the first country to recognize Kosovo was Afghanistan! Some commonality of interests. Now that Swiss prosecutor Dick Marty prepared report on the extend of their odious crimes, he cannot even have his witnesses protected! US is demanding that the names be given to the same "prime minister", Mr. Taci, for PROTECTION. Please learn about Kosovo, and never, ever say what a great thing it was.
Bianca
March 20th, 2011 at 12:23 am
Riiiiiight, BBC. Absolutely cannot call Raimondo a lier. Because he did report on what was going on at that time. Remember, the group that now calls the shots in Benghazi is not the same as it was even a week ago. The sentiments also changed. Once the Benghazi was actually in danger, the sentiment for intervention grew stronger. This can evaporate just as quickly. Few missiles on Tripoli and Benghazi, and a lots of dead Libyan civilians can change things on the ground. It is very, very fluid. We do not know who is calling the shots, and what their ultimate game plan is. No need romanticizing the bloodshed. I do not care who is the "bloodthirsty" dictator, and who are the "saints" of opposition. Both are capable of cruetly towards innocents, and so are the earstwhile interventionist forces.
Bianca
March 20th, 2011 at 12:33 am
There is no WE. We need for every optional military intervention and estimate of costs (both short term and long term care of veterans), to be assessed per person depending on how many people sign-up for it. Myself and others will opt out, so that the per person assessment will be higher for those who want it. This would be fair.
And I disagree with you about the issues of action vs inaction in Libya, Bahrain and Yemen. Libya is not US ally, but Bahrain and Yemen are. WE could start simply by exerting our influence, and stopping the flow of money to them. We could, in a much cheaper and more effective way improve the lives of people from Jordan to Emirates by insuring that our friends do not kill their citizens, and that they grant them BASIC rights as citizens. We could have left Libya a mess, and eventually Gadhafi would have left the scene. Imagine, how many friends we have, and what influence we yield. Why bother with Libya?
Bianca
March 20th, 2011 at 12:39 am
I agree. I wondered about the cynicisms of the five that abstained, and basically let the suicidal trio go ahead. What a spectacle with the "international community" now being reduced to these three, and the motley crew of shaken Middle Eastern regimes.
Bianca
March 20th, 2011 at 12:43 am
Thank you, once in a while everyone needs to be reminded how much we have in common accros the globe, and that the governments are detached from the reality.
Bianca
March 20th, 2011 at 12:45 am
Agree. Nothing can top Kosovo. Libya cannot hope for such a bright future.
Bodkin
March 20th, 2011 at 7:21 am
"If that movement can be sustained, it will be the best possible antidote to terrorism"
You're terribly naive. As anyone who watches TV can see, the Libyan members of this delightful "movement" holler "Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!" every time they fire a shot or hit a target. In fact, these rebels may be more fundamentalist than their oppressors.
"But what is sweeping the Middle East seems to be a genuinely popular movement for change"
In the end, the "change" will amount to Western-backed oppressive dictators being replaced by radically intolerant Islamist dictators, of the Muslim Brotherhood/Iranian Mullah variety.
In short, there will be MORE terrorism, not less. So be careful what you wish for.
Norwegian Guy
March 20th, 2011 at 9:15 am
My impression is that there is much more opposition to this war in the US than in many European countries, with the possible exception of Germany. Much of the opposition to the war against Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq have been based on the fact that these wars did not have a UN security council mandate. With that in place this time, the antiwar sentiments are unfortunately much weaker, though this might change if the war drags on. But I'm surprised how easily some people who should have known better have been fooled by the "humanitarian war" propaganda, even people who were not fooled by this regarding Kosovo.
Uzun
March 20th, 2011 at 9:26 am
I agree with your suggestion, but there is one small unpleasant fact in the way: THE TRUTH. Reading the foreign press and listening to the Pentagon briefing I learned that there were 19 US aircraft (mostly USMC Harriers) in the first wave of 20 aircraft. It was (un)wise to let the French take the lead, but the sad truth is that American lives will be lost again – in a disproportionate manner.
Prinzowhales
March 20th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Obama's intelligence is irrelevant…he is Wall Street's sock puppet and he is following the line of conquest spelled out in Cheney's Pentagon plans for the future served up in the last year of Bush the Elder's presidency and in PNAC….
irene
March 20th, 2011 at 2:55 pm
hey Justin. you are still doing what you do best. fighting the good fight