It has been eight years since al-Qaeda attacked the Twin Towers and the Pentagon: eight long years in which the "war on terrorism" – begun by George W. Bush in a blaze of righteousness, and since carried on by his successor, in Afghanistan and Pakistan – has been waged on several fronts. So, how are we doing?
No one can honestly say we are winning, or anywhere close to it. Osama bin Laden and the top leadership of al-Qaeda are still at large, still issuing messages mocking their pursuers and vowing fresh terrorist attacks to come. One of those messages, communicated by bin Laden himself in the days before the 2004 presidential election, effectively demonstrates not only our ongoing defeat but also the reason for it:
"All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaeda, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.
"This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat."
As we race from Afghanistan to Iraq, back to Afghanistan, into Pakistan and now into Yemen, bin Laden must be chortling in his cave, somewhere, contemplating the undoubted success of his strategy. As what the war aficionados and amateur grand strategists call the "Long War" approaches the end of its first decade, the fact that we are losing – and losing badly – cannot have escaped the attention of Western leaders. This is underscored by the most recent attacks – the post-9/11 wave of seemingly minor incidents (or, at least, minor in comparison to what happened on 9/11) – and the Western response.
It started out light. First there was Richard Reid (December, 2001), then a gunman, Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, opened fire at an El Al ticket counter at LAX (July, 2002); in 2004, the Madrid train bombings; in 2006, the first suicide bombings in Europe occurred in Britain, but, again, nothing on the scale of 9/11. The one major plot, the transatlantic liquid bomb plot, was scotched by British security services: another bomb plot, in 2008, failed. In 2009, there was this incident, which, in retrospect – in view of the Yemen connection – may be significant, the Ft. Hood massacre, which also has a Yemen connection, and the most recent attack: the abortive bomb attempt carried out by Umar Farouk Abdel Muttalib, yet another Yemen-connected incident.
If we step back, and take an overview, we can see two patterns emerging: first, the utter ineffectiveness of the idea that invading and occupying Muslim countries (Afghanistan, Iraq) could have any appreciable effect on al-Qaeda’s operations aimed at the US and Western Europe. Indeed, it seems US military action in Afghanistan and Iraq only aided bin Laden’s recruitment efforts, particularly in Europe.
The "flypaper" strategy, once hailed by Andrew Sullivan and other "war-bloggers" boomeranged badly: instead, we are the ones stuck to the flypaper, and stuck with costly and counterproductive military campaigns that show no signs of ever coming to an end.
Treating this as a problem for the military to solve, rather than more traditional law enforcement methods, has proved a failure. In that 2004 video message, bin Laden gloated that he would bankrupt the United States – and can anyone deny that he has succeeded?
The second pattern to emerge from the past eight or so years is the relative amateurism and ineffectuality that has characterized attempts by al-Qaeda to hit the continental US. Losers like Reid, Hassan, and now Muttalib were essentially drones acting largely on their own. Muttalib reportedly went to Yemen, where he was supposedly "trained" and equipped by al-Qaeda, but, as we can see, this training was about as effective as the bomb itself, i.e. pathetic. It seems clear that al-Qaeda planners didn’t much care if their agents succeeded or failed. The point of these attacks seems to have been to keep our attention focused on airliners, and our efforts focused on weeding out potential terrorists from the millions of daily travelers. I might add that the pace of these drone attacks has picked up: three in the last year.
So what is al-Qaeda up to? A number of analysts have stated that the "drone" attacks mean al-Qaeda is exhausted, and unable to launch a major attack on US soil: they are flailing about, sending these losers on suicide missions that have little chance of success, and, even if successful, would have little impact on the American colossus. This view is utterly mistaken.
In order to see what is really going on, I believe we have to go back to the seminal event, the 9/11 attacks, and get a clear picture of what was happening in the months and weeks prior to that fateful day in September.
Al-Qaeda was already entrenched in the US, having placed its foot soldiers on our soil years before, patiently training and waiting for The Day. In addition, in the months prior to September 11, 2001, a massive effort to penetrate sensitive US government and military facilities was underway. The National Counter-Intelligence Center (NCIC) published an "alert" averring that groups of individuals who described themselves as "Israeli art students" were showing up at government offices and military installations, trying to gain entry:
"In the past six weeks, employees in federal office buildings located throughout the United States have reported suspicious activities connected with individuals representing themselves as foreign students selling or delivering artwork. Employees have observed both males and females attempting to bypass facility security and enter federal buildings."
They were also showing up "at the homes of senior officials," according to the NCIC, a development that must have set off alarm bells throughout the counter-intelligence apparatus. An inter-agency report was compiled and leaked to the public, which named names and gave a very specific account of who these Israeli "visitors" were, and what they were up to: many had backgrounds in intelligence and the military, with a specialty in electronic eavesdropping.
The activities of these "art students" were reported by Christopher Ketcham in a piece for Salon.com, but it was Carl Cameron, at Fox News, who really blew the lid off of the "Israeli art student" story in the aftermath of 9/11, in mid-December, 2001, with a four-part series on Israeli spying in the US. His first report started off with a bang. Noting that "more than 60" (later, around 200) Israelis had been picked up in the wake of 9/11 under the same anti-terrorist rubric as the "sweep" of Arabs living in the US, Cameron averred:
"There is no indication that the Israelis were involved in the 9-11 attacks, but investigators suspect that they Israelis may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it. A highly placed investigator said there are ‘tie-ins.’ But when asked for details, he flatly refused to describe them, saying, “evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information."
As Oliver Schrom wrote in Die Zeit, the respected German weekly, there is convincing evidence that the 9/11 hijackers were being trailed by Israeli agents:
"Not until after the attacks of September 11 did the consequences of the spy ring become clear. Apparently the agents were not interested in military or industrial facilities, but were shadowing a number of suspects, who were later involved in the terrorist attacks against the US. According to a report of the French intelligence agency that Die Zeit examined, ‘according to the FBI, Arab terrorists and suspected terror cells lived in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as in Miami and Hollywood, Florida from December 2000 to April 2001 in direct proximity to the Israeli spy cells.’"
Like the recent wave of al-Qaeda bombers, the "art students" were pretty ineffective – drones, easily detected and/or prevented from carrying out their missions. Ketcham theorized that the Israelis were a planned diversion, designed to draw attention and resources away from the 9/11 hijackers and focus it on the platoons of "art students" who were suddenly showing up at government offices – some of which weren’t on any map or in any telephone directory. Citing an anonymous intelligence official, Ketcham wrote:
"The art student ring was a smoke screen intended to create confusion and allow actual spies – who were also posing as art students – to be lumped together with the rest and escape detection. In other words, the operation is an elaborate double fake-out, a hiding-in-plain-sight scam. Whoever dreamed it up thought ahead to the endgame and knew that the DEA-stakeout aspect was so bizarre that it would throw off American intelligence. According to this theory … Israeli agents wanted, let’s say, to monitor al-Qaida members in Florida and other states. But they feared detection. So to provide cover, and also to create a dizzyingly Byzantine story that would confuse the situation, Israeli intel flooded areas of real operations with these bumbling ‘art student’” – who were told to deliberately stake out DEA agents."
Confused, preoccupied, and stretching their personnel and resources to the max, the US intelligence-gathering agencies were blinded to the warning signs that indicated the 9/11 plot. The Israeli "art student" smokescreen worked like a charm.
The same sort of smokescreen effect has blinded us to al-Qaeda’s future plans, focusing our attention on airliners and anticipating a repeat of the methods employed by them on 9/11, i.e. using an airliner as a weapon of mass destruction. Indeed, the parallels with the pre-9/11 landscape are ominous, including the strong suspicion that the al-Qaeda bombers and would-be bombers, such as Mr. Muttalib, had some sort of outside assistance: see the account of the "well-dressed Indian man" described by Michigan attorney Kurt Haskell. Haskell was a passenger on the plane, and, as he was waiting to board, overheard the Indian trying to get Muttalib on the plane without the proper papers. And then there is the suggestion that the investigation into Muttalib – the apparent indifference of the CIA and/or the US State Department to the warnings of the would-be bomber’s father that his son posed a danger – was deliberately scuttled. This isn’t just some fringe crank making this suggestion, but MSNBC reporter Richard Wolfe:
"The question is why didn’t the centralized system of intelligence that was set up after 9/11, why didn’t it work? Is it conspiracy or cock up? Is it a case of the agencies having so much rivalry between them that they were more determined to stymie each other or the centralized system rather than the terrorist threat or was it just that there were so many dots no one could connect them because it was just all too random to figure out. It seems that the president is leaning very much towards thinking this was a systemic failure by individuals who maybe had an alternative agenda."
"An alternative agenda"? In the context of al-Qaeda’s ongoing campaign to inflict a mortal blow on the US, what can this "alternative agenda" consist of?
Keith Olbermann, naturally, is hysterically implying that this is all a Republican plot to discredit Obama and oust the Democrats, but once we get past such juvenile rantings, and take Wolfe’s reporting at face value – that the President of the United States is "leaning very much toward" the idea that the vetting of Muttalib was deliberately botched – the possibility that al-Qaeda has allies in high places is taken out of the realm of the fantastic and given real legs.
Let’s step back, once again, and see where we are: a series of post-9/11 incidents involving individual terrorists on the periphery of al-Qaeda, suicidal "drones" sent to inflict damage without much care taken to ensure their success. And, recently, the pace of these attacks is picking up…
This, I fear, is an effective smokescreen for what al-Qaeda is really planning: a large-scale terrorist assault, perhaps involving nuclear materials, that rivals 9/11 in scope and destructive power. While we’re fighting off these little pinpricks in the form of the Shoe-Bomber and the Panty-Bomber, the real deal is looming right around the next corner – and, perhaps like last time, with those "art students," they have some sort of outside assistance (how else did Muttalib get on that plane?).
Our ports are unguarded: every day millions of tons of cargo pass through, without being inspected. Our nuclear facilities are far from secured (remember those nukes that went missing?) Our borders are notoriously porous, especially our southern border, across which pour tens of thousands of illegal immigrants on a daily basis: why not al-Qaeda?
In the name of a "war on terrorism," we have gone abroad, seeking monsters to destroy – when the monsters, in seems, are in our very midst. Or, if they aren’t, then al-Qaeda is more incompetent than I’m willing to believe.
To answer the question posed at the beginning of this column: we are losing the "war on terrorism," big-time. By concentrating our attention abroad, rather than on the home front, we have made bin Laden into an Islamic folk hero, swelled the ranks of al-Qaeda – and wasted our resources, opening ourselves up to a debilitating attack that could make 9/11 pale in comparison. In short, we have never been more vulnerable, or clueless, when it comes to facing the very real threat posed by al-Qaeda and its allies and enablers.
God help us all.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Our Civil Liberties, RIP – May 16th, 2013
- Raping the World – May 14th, 2013
- The Price of Peace – May 12th, 2013
- Boycott Israel? – May 9th, 2013
- Carla del Ponte’s Faux Pas – May 7th, 2013





Tweets that mention The ‘Long War’: Who’s Winning? by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com -- Topsy.com
January 5th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Antiwar.com, InfoFeeder. InfoFeeder said: infofeeder.info The ‘Long War’: Who’s Winning? [antiwar]: It has been eight years since al-Qaeda.. http://bit.ly/806PTe [...]
BlueMoon
January 6th, 2010 at 7:03 am
Great article Justin Keep it up. Now, one question:
This may no be that complecated. Support for war has been decreasing over time. The weakest the support, the more need for a "boost" of the threat to make people fearful (and increase support for the war party).
Elmer Again
January 6th, 2010 at 7:07 am
The more money that Mr.Raimondo gets from the C.I.A.,the crazier he gets,he might as well join a Neocon "think tank".Suicide bombers,I.E.D.'s and guerilla bands,that is the Islamist's resistance.Where are they going to get nukes?Sounds a lot like the WMD's in Iraq.It is the American economy that is under extreme threat and the massive Defence budget is one of the main reasons for it.America is It's own worst "terrorist".
Cody
January 6th, 2010 at 9:28 am
What if it is something more mundane? 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq ensured that the United States will send its military forces into Arab/Muslim countries on a whim, will fire missiles at al-Qaed drones holding up white flags with the terrorist organization's name emblazened on them. The cost, it seems, of getting the United States mired in more quagmires is fairly low.
pwi
January 6th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Well some of your readers will be dissapointed as 9/11 was an inside job. That being said all wars have both a homefront and a battle front. The US is fully capable (even if not always competent) of fighting both. In all wars there will be victories and defeats on both.
If you are concerned for your safety, get yourself a Glock pistol, some ammo, some canned food, a surplus Israeli gas mask and some duct tape. You'll be alright. Cheers!
jojo
January 6th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Justin,I got news for you,Bin Laden is dead.What's with this garbage "bin Laden himself in the days before the 2004 presidential election". Have you ever heard of a guy living in California by the name Pearlman?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsUtvOW6SR0&fe…
Serious Justin, do you have ghost writers from Israel's MOSSAD ?
Nelson_2008
January 6th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Umm, ok, for the nth time, the "war on terror" is a complete fraud. You should be telling me that, not vice-versa.
You seem to be able to pick out many of the fallacies, but then you utterly "fail" to arrive at the only reasonable conclusions. Why?
Put simply, no, "we" did not "go abroad seeking monsters to destroy", rather, "we" went abroad in pursuit of the Zionists' PNAC agenda.
Lastly, if you're going to continue to insist that "al-Qaeda" did 9/11, then please have the courtesy to explain how the WTC towers happened to get themselves rigged for demolition with explosives, beforehand, as this video INDISPUTABLY implies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O36ReZixfiY
Nelson_2008
January 6th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Umm, ok, for the nth time, the "war on terror" is a complete fraud. You should be telling me that, not vice-versa.
You seem to be able to pick out many of the fallacies, but then you utterly "fail" to arrive at the only reasonable conclusions. Why?
Put simply, no, "we" did not "go abroad seeking monsters to destroy", rather, "we" went abroad in pursuit of the Zionists' PNAC agenda.
Lastly, if you're going to continue to insist that "al-Qaeda" did 9/11, then please have the courtesy to explain how the WTC towers happened to get themselves rigged for demolition with explosives, beforehand, as this video INDISPUTABLY implies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O36ReZixfiY
Nelson_2008
January 6th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Umm, ok, for the nth time, the "war on terror" is a complete fraud. You should be telling me that, not vice-versa.
You seem to be able to pick out many of the fallacies, but then you utterly "fail" to arrive at the only reasonable conclusions. Why?
Put simply, no, "we" did not "go abroad seeking monsters to destroy", rather, "we" went abroad in pursuit of the Zionists' PNAC agenda.
Lastly, if you're going to continue to insist that "al-Qaeda" did 9/11, then please have the courtesy to explain how the WTC towers happened to get themselves rigged for demolition with explosives, beforehand, as this video INDISPUTABLY implies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O36ReZixfiY
hardreality
January 6th, 2010 at 6:44 pm
There is no Al Qaeda. http://polidics.com/cia/top-ranking-cia-operative…
pwi
January 6th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Well some of your readers will be dissapointed as 9/11 was an inside job. That being said all wars have both a homefront and a battle front. The US is fully capable (even if not always competent) of fighting both. In all wars there will be victories and defeats on both.
If you are concerned for your safety, get yourself a Glock pistol, some ammo, some canned food, a surplus Israeli gas mask and some duct tape. You'll be alright. Cheers!
pwi
January 6th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
Oh I don't know, from someone who has both nukes and deniability?
Guest
January 6th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Guys and gals, Al-Qaeda, like all of Amerca's 'enemies', is a CIA/MOSSAD invention. Therefore, it was, in a sense, Al-Qaeda who planned and executed 9/11. It is real simple.
Here is yet more information on the latest false-flag attack. A VERY new twist to this story!
http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1316.htm
Mike D
January 6th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
Justin my friend,
Two days ago you wrote a great column.
Today you wrote a mostly bogus column.
One step forward, two steps back.
Justin, as Frank Zappa once asked, "What is your conceptual continuity?"
DMinor7th
January 6th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Well.. there IS a conspiracy to discredit Obama.. but it's being run by Obama himself and that gang of Goldman Sachs retread banksters he's surrounded himself with. I would say the con is working at 100% efficiency. At least in my neck o' the woods. The man has never been so discredited as he is as the current moment.
fedupandsick
January 6th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Let's all hide under the covers. Jesus.
Robert Fisher
January 6th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
the Editor of the Anti War Movement defending Israel ? sure there were suspicious beings in and out of the Towers prior to 9/11 but they were from Mossad. it was an Israeli that purchased the Tower shortly before and it was them planting the explosives. what.s wrong Justin, this is no way to keep the movement going.
USPatriot
January 6th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Justin…once again, you state, "It has been eight years since al-Qaeda attacked the Twin Towers…"
I really enjoy your editorials, but every time you mention the 'official' government line about 'who' attacked the WTC you lose me. On the one hand, you question and judge every action done by the Bush and Obama administrations, yet you parrot the 'official line' when it comes to 9/11. What gives?
Then we get into the whole 'Al-Qaeda' thing. The Emmanuel Goldstein of our time which is conveniently sprinkled across the globe in order to justify our intervention and occupation.
From others comments after this editorial, I take it I am not the only one that is left scratching his head and wondering what is it that you truly believe…
The 'Long War': Who's Winning? by Justin Raimondo — Antiwar.com Help
January 6th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
[...] here: The 'Long War': Who's Winning? by Justin Raimondo — Antiwar.com Tags: attacked-the-twin, enter-the-base, george, kashmir-security, pentagon, sammy, successor, [...]
@lesterhalfjr
January 7th, 2010 at 1:01 am
I don't get the israel art student angle and I don't get believe there were any. It was like that lady who said there were arabs running from oklahoma city. justin just phones that stuff in to get support from truthers. It was one of those stories that came out after 9/11 when people were looking for absolutely anything.
why would israelis, who justin thinks WANTED 9/11 happen, follow the plotters around which if they screwed up and were detected would blow the whole thing?
This whole column is a nutty conspiracy theory.
MvGuy
January 6th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
"Our borders are notoriously porous, especially our southern border, across which pour tens of thousands of illegal immigrants on a daily basis: why not al-Qaeda?'
Yes, I too am a doubter.. Perhaps the answer to your question is…that the first strike did the job… Was there a second Reistag fire… It wasn't necessary after the Enabling act stripped away any rights of the citizens and any restraint of THE STATE… Too many suspicious anomalies… Too poorly investigated… Too convenient. Did I mention Silverstein's pullit moment..?? There will be another strike when the MIC gets bogged down and people start talk of pulling FLUSH lever on the Great Neocon Gambit….of.. 911 aided Full Spectrum Dominance….. of the world….. It looks like Pres. "O" was onboard for the entire voyage……
Generalissmo X
January 6th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
i'm not sure how a terrorist group is actually going to get hold a nuclear weapon..911 was beyond their abilities and it's disheartening that raimondo gives creedence to FDR foreknowledge, but still seems to think al qaeda pulled of 9-11. they didn't. and their subsequent "follow ups" are more indicative of their true capabilities..i.e. virtually none. al-qaeda IS the CIA. they attack planes as that's the convenient way to strip away our liberties….but if they were truly interested in a terror campaign and inflicting mass death on the usa all you would need is 5 guys with assault rifles, body armor and ammo in a shopping mall to pull that off.
as far as this patsie from nigeria, instead of anyone doing research on how he got on a plane with no passport, all they are talking about is more security and body scanners. it sickens me what cowards the american people are..some retarded kid torches his d*ck and it's non-stop news. we should be laughing at this guy….
B York
January 6th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
The plan is to bankrupt the U.S., bleeding it dry just as was done to the USSR. Further to the plan, as in all terrorist campaigns, is to cause the government being attacked to compromise its own principles, thereby undermining its legitimacy. I'd say AQ is doing pretty well, especially since there are so many here in the USA who so lust after profits and power that they become useful idiots furthering the cause of terror. And of course, the Israelis love to see us doing their dirty work for them.
It is very complicated, wheels within wheels, but the non-state terror guys are winning. We can only hope that in the end, the state terror guys will lose their empire and the American people can regain their country.
xpo
January 6th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
Who is winning this war? The Zionists, of course. The Israel Lobby. The neocons. PNAC. And who is loosing? Well, that is almost all others, including the American people.
mark david
January 6th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Hey Justin, I do love reading most of your articles. However, recently over a few sites and other authors I have seen the mention of Al Qaeda taking attacking the towers and the pentagon. So my only response to these comments is could you please tell me again how Al Qaeda brought down building 7 in New York. And while you are doing this please enlighten me as to how there was no investigation into the only three steel structure buildings in the history of such buildings to collapse due to fire, stress, or damage. We go on about protecting the public from terrorists in this country but no one seems concerned about preventing other buildings from falling. Seems a little short-sited to even talk about Al Qaeda and these events without a real investigation in to the events.
persnipoles
January 7th, 2010 at 5:18 am
Sometimes it reminds me of watching Colin Powel at the UN: by then we knew the putsch on Iraq was a fraud (Justin's efforts there are much appreciated), only question was who got to him, how and when. The feeling is about the same when the 'antiwar movement' dodges the more central, driving, big myths. I'll 'confess' I thought demolition was obvious on-day-one and at first sight, and that the sparse acknowledgement of that (and especially the lack of coverage of WTC7) was a definite fraud indicator. If there was even genuine surprise among the powers that be, there would at least have been visible confusion and a real physical investigation.
The legacy of the Soloman Asche experiment continues: it's the choice between believing proven liars and your lyin' eyes. Yes, it is indeed so obvious and so central that silence about it amounts to betrayal. Justin has also previously lumped the 'truthers' together for slander, so I disagree he's getting anything undeserved here.
Nadorn85
January 7th, 2010 at 12:39 am
Whoah. Looks like someone called in the cavalry because of Justin making the 'ridiculous' assertion that Al Qaeda knocked down the towers and not being 100% devoted to the cause of believing the incompetent government planned the whole thing out and that every other person is an undercover CIA agent.
I'm all for further investigations, as it's obvious the U.S. is not divulging a LOT about the circumstances regarding 9/11. But come on. Throwing insults at Justin because the fact the U.S. government bringing down the towers is such an OBVIOUS conclusion and any dissent to the idea is obviously brought up by complete idiots or CIA agents? Such ferocious devotion to rhetoric is only paralleled by the statists you supposedly hate. I'm not sure who's worse, you guys or BUSH.
RockyRococo
January 7th, 2010 at 7:43 am
I'm not real comfortable with this approach Justin, because if you follow this line, you'll end up justifying Patriot Act, FISA loosening, and other invasions of basic civil liberties by promulgating fear about "Homeland Security". One of the key elements that libertarians of the right such as yourself and libertarians of the left such as me have shared throughout this whole madness has been making defense of basic civil liberties and resisting the imposition of intrusive militarized/police state apparatus. We need to hold that line.
Nadorn85
January 7th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
While I agree that there's definitely, definitely a lot of questions that need answering, and the government is no doubt covering up vast amounts of stuff about it, I can't believe it's competent enough or even brave enough to pull something like that off. So much would have to be put into play, plots upon plots, and then covered up effectively by the same government who'll forget about authorizing $100 million for research about the ability of monkeys to throw their feces. This, then, leads to the assertion that there's some sort of Shadow Council no-one's ever heard about made of people no-one's ever heard about.
While I suppose it's possible, I'm very uncomfortable making that sort of jump in logic when you haven't even completely explained the first jump in logic. And I certainly can't blame anyone else for not wanting to make that jump, and I CERTAINLY wouldn't call it such a foregone conclusion that anyone who DOESN'T believe it is a 'betrayer', that just reeks of blind zealotry that won't get your cause anywhere. It's that sort of behavior that's made the statists easily equate 'truther' with 'white supremacist', as you guys aren't helping yourselves by acting smug and snobbish whenever your ideas are challenged.
Sure, it LOOKED like a demolition. But you know what? I'm not a goddamned demolitionist. Don't know anyone who is. Never saw one attempted or conducted in person. What the hell do I know? The solution is, of course, you investigate it. Government won't let you, so that's the first roadblock to pummel down. Making any grand declarations before you've got that down won't get you anywhere.
Also, the point of, 'Well, the government's a proven liar.' doesn't automatically mean absolutely everything and anything they say is a lie, and the fact they are liars must mean they perpetrated it and anyone who disagrees is a dirty communist, is a ridiculous perversion of logic. If you can really lay the blame that easily and that loosely, I don't think you'll ever convince anyone of anything.
charley caruso
January 7th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Did everyone 'fail to connect the dots'?
Or is there a mole somewhere high up who makes sure the dots stay disconnected?
Kim Philby may be grinning in his grave
Nelson_2008
January 7th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
Alas the "incompetence" defense appears…the notion that secret service of Israel assisted by high level traitors in the U.S. government, with all the resources in the world at their disposal, cannot do what 19 Arabs can? LOL!
Let's begin by having you explain *precisely* what it was that was accomplished, that "government" would be "too incompetent" to have accomplished.
Next, please explain how the "Arabs" managed to subsequently prevent any kind of meaningful investigation into the events of 9/11 and related events (e.g., the anthrax attacks).
Next, please explain how large quantities of nanothermite came to be found in the dust from the building "collapses"?
http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOC…
Lastly, please explain what's happening in the following video if it's not what the author says it is, i.e., a cutter charge cutting through a steel box column in the Northwest corner of WTC1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O36ReZixfiY
persnipoles
January 7th, 2010 at 8:05 pm
I can appreciate your frustrations with 'truthers,' and appreciate being reminded of the similarities in behavior between zealots. But I think you conflated a number of responders above –who seemed to me were unlikely to have much in common. It was no surprise, consequently, that you attributed assertions to myself that I did not make.
There are three problems with the incompetence theme: 1. it assumes I've identified the culprit(s), which I have not. 2. the culprit assumed in the incompetency theme (US gov't) has a stronger history of over-funded, ill advised, but fairly sophisticated shinanegans than than the theme acknowledges; e.g. CIA activity in Latin America. 3. Simply asserting incompetence fails to compare competencies: why is Al Qaeda presumed so brilliant?
It is a meaningless term without comparisons. A central theme in warmongering is identical to what is usually meant by 'conspiracy theory': to the fantasist, the enemy du jour is very, very SNEAKY. That partially accounts for the inflation of Al Qaeda into a Goldstein. Also refer to (1).
The I'm-not-an-engineer ("demolitionist") theme may even be sincere in some cases, but there is no "grand declaration" about it –you note that it 'LOOKED like' it. Visual cues can be verbalized, and at first glance would include (at a minimum): downward telescoping motion, and a smoothly increasing rate of 'fall' –sometimes unfortunately equated with 'free fall' (e.g. by Jesse Ventura, a demolitionist, for one). I agree that saying it 'looked like it' does not require expertise, to surmise that it was what it looks like is an issue addressed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRh5qy09nNw
"Government won't let you" investigate? Please explain! Do you mean they'll knock down your door if you visit this site: http://www.physicstoolkit.com ? (note that this is not a 'truther' site.)
"doesn't automatically mean absolutely everything and anything they say is a lie.": The usual summary of what one does infer from 'proven lies' is that the liar is 'not credible,' which is not normally taken to infer that the liar did not tell the truth when he told you he took a crap sometime last week. Which of us is making grandiose assertions, here? Which of us is acting "smug and snobbish?"
persnipoles
January 7th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
This discussion may be following the pattern of 'talking past each other,' if you had more to say, I'm interested –the handle above at hotmail. Bring a toothbrush and a change of socks.
jackbootstate
January 7th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
What I want to know is how is it that a nation can send a massive military force to invade and occupy a country halfway around world, kill up to 1,000,000 people in said country, only lose a few thousand soldiers along the way, and be declared the loser of the conflict? One ought to be asking whether we can even characterize the invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq as wars, as they resemble massacres more than wars once people compare the deaths tolls between the invading and invaded nations. Like in Indochina, this is hardly surprising given the balance of the forces in this conflict.
What I also get tired of hearing is this nonsense that this little rag tag guerrilla army al-Queda is somehow a threat to the economic and military power of the United States, which is the way Justin's column is framed. 9/11 was a sucker punch inflicted by al-Queda. They got lucky and caught the U.S. government with its pants down. What 9/11 reveals is the simple fact that U.S. military forces are aimed aggressive war outside U.S. borders, not at actually defending the U.S. mainland from invasion. The U.S. is so powerful militarily that it simply can't be invaded by an outside military force.
And what does this fearsome army al-Queda offer up in response to U.S. military power? A homemade bomb that they attempted to set off on a plane. This is the army that is "defeating" the U.S. militarily? Give me a break.
Nelson_2008
January 7th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
So, generally speaking, a 9/11 "truther" is a "zealot", i.e., a "fanatic", in your view?
Let's see, the "U.S. government" and its criminally insane Masters in Tel Aviv have murdered 3000 people on U.S. soil, in a false-flag act of terrorism, and then used that act as a pretext to launch a murderous, pre-planned Zionist crusade that's already cost the lives of over a million people, threatens millions more, if not WW3, and is certainly going to destroy the what's left of the U.S., economically, politically and morally. And those of us who are trying to stop the self-destruction by pointing out that 9/11 was an inside job are "Zealots"? LOL!
I guess in this time of universal deceit and moral cowardice, telling the ugly truth is the act of a "fanatic".
persnipoles
January 7th, 2010 at 10:21 pm
Gently, Nelson. Be sure to speak as if you really know nothing, acknowledge a coverup & 'unanswered questions.' Write vaguely terms about a 'new investigation' — that 'we' need –of obfuscators by the obfuscators themselves. Express discomfort with your opponent's leaps of logic, and finally extrapolate his statements into extreme generalizations and lump him with 'the others.'
persnipoles
January 8th, 2010 at 12:41 am
" 9/11 "truther" is a "zealot", i.e., a "fanatic", in your view? " You've caught me unintentionally characterizing a group in a way that's emotionally satisfying to their opponents. Plz catch me in that act as often as you like (I do learn, and I don't like seeing it intentionally either) but I don't believe the term is inherently negative, only that you'd have to get what they're talking about to tell them apart –and that it can be stressful to sort out. The perceived 'burden of proof' has shifted to where people who insist the sky is blue can appear zealous (or I could just agree with your Orwell(?) paraphrase), i.e. this has succeeded:
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum…
Favorite: "12 .Require the skeptics to solve the crime completely."
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/118155
Some of these might be perceived on both sides.
Nadorn85
January 8th, 2010 at 3:16 am
I was actually just referring to those above who insisted Justin is tantamount to a 'betrayer' because he's on the side that thinks Al Qaeda did it, and any specific insults you thought I was throwing was misunderstood as what I was doing was going for your argument defending the several people above who're quickly moving for the torches and pitchforks approach for this article. I'm making no distinction, to be honest I have no idea what happened. I merely have my opinions, thus the investigation is necessary. (Also, the government not 'letting' an investigation occur refers to the cover-ups, which obviously would impede one.) I've heard points of view on the matter from physicists in support of the 'inside job' theory and those against it, and in the end I know just as much as I did before: Nothing. Is it not enough to simply be a skeptic and work toward uncovering what the government has covered up? One MUST sign on fully and immediately to either side presented even if I find both sides to be far-fetched and lacking in specifics? Either your theory is correct or the establishment's theory is correct? That is what I'm referring to.
The ‘Long War’: Who’s Winning? « Patrick J. Buchanan
January 7th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
[...] The ‘Long War’: Who’s Winning? By Justin Raimondo – AntiWar.com [...]
persnipoles
January 8th, 2010 at 8:03 am
Fine. The physicstoolkit link was only half serious –most of what I could verify on that software I already saw just like everyone else. Final shot/'recommendation': Make a serious effort to describe this so that a friend would be able to see it clearly in his head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ1E2NPl-s8 , then compare your description with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2qKNCDDLII . Now look outside and verify the sky is still blue.