It’s hard being a neocon these days. Discredited by the utter failure of the Iraq war, and thoroughly exposed in the media as having played the key role in lying us into that disastrous conflict, the neoconservative project [.pdf] seems to have come to a standstill.
Oh sure, they’re still around, thanks to the op ed page of the Washington Post – which they seem to own – and also due to Fox News, which trots out Charles Krauthammer and Bill Kristol any time commentary a cut above Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity is required. However, their pronouncements don’t carry the same weight they once did: after all, these are the same people whose predictions of a "cakewalk" in Iraq echo down through the years, mocking their credentials as credible spokesmen for anything. Yet the neocons are nothing if not persistent, and especially persistent is David Frum, the author of the infamous "axis of evil" speech, a phrase that rightly came to be seen as the war cry of Bushian militarism run amok.
After the post-Bush implosion of the GOP, Frum, unchastened and unchanged, left National Review – whose editors, no doubt, had grown weary of his self-appointed role as the Vyshinsky of the Right – and went on to found a new web site dedicated to "reforming" the conservative movement, which, in his view, had deviated from the neocon party line sufficiently to require extensive reeducation. Thus was born the "New Majority" web site (which Frum has since changed to FrumForum, after having discovered that he’s not representative of anything close to a majority, but more like a party of one). He also wrote a book which recommended that the GOP back off of all this "limited government" rhetoric, and resign itself to the growth of the Leviathan that had taken such a gigantic leap forward during the reign of his former boss: the most Republicans can hope for, he avers, is to trim the growth of government around the edges. However, Frum’s real concern, as usual – as is true of all neocons – is foreign policy.
With Obama in the White House, and two wars on the presidential agenda, what the neocons fear most is a revival of what they call "isolationism" on the Right. Viscerally hostile to the "tea partiers" in any event – too libertarian, and too populist for Frum’s refined tastes – he has lately begun sniffing around for signs of "isolationism" and "resentment" among the conservative grassroots. The latter is bad because it indicates disdain for the elites, and neocons are philosophically committed to an elitism of a sort that neither Russell Kirk nor Albert Jay Nock (and perhaps not even the late Bill Buckley) would recognize. (The Straussian connection to neoconservatism is too well-documented to be discussed at length here. See this, this, and this.)
"Isolationism" is bad, in the Frumian view, because it means that America’s relentless post-9/11 rampage through the Middle East will come to an end – and he and his neocon confreres aren’t having any of that. Militarism is the very core of the neoconservative idea, the essence of what makes for what David Brooks, in his pre-New York Times incarnation, dubbed "national greatness" conservatism. These "great men" have a world to win, and they aren’t about to let the right-wing populist hoi polloi – with whom they hooked up in a marriage of convenience, and are now eager to dump – stand in the way of their fun. A panicky piece in the FrumForum, a bit of reportage by one Tim Mak, informs us that:
"With news emerging that a hypothetical Tea Party party would beat out the Republican Party in a three-way matchup, FrumForum sought to explore what a Tea Party party’s foreign policy platform might look like by interviewing Tea Party protesters during the Capitol Hill protests this past Tuesday.
"While virtually all of the Tea Partiers interviewed by FrumForum expressed support for American troops overseas, their comments indicated that a Tea Party party foreign policy could very well be isolationist in nature.
"’I think a tea party foreign policy would probably be none. A tea party foreign policy would be working on getting the U.S.A. back together… Our economy is in disarray. I don’t think this is a time to worry about foreign policy when our country is about to collapse. It’s time to take care of ourselves,’ said Nate Wiggim, recently profiled in the Tea Party documentary."
The Frumians hate that documentary, because it fails to feature the supposedly "extremist" elements Frum and his co-thinkers over at DailyKos.com would prefer to focus on. Indeed, reading the FrumForum reporting on the tea party phenomenon, one might as well be reading the latest from Markos Moulitsas and/or the Huffington Post: "fringe," "conspiracy theorists," and of course "racist" are the least of the epithets that constitute the Frumian critique in its entirety. Mixed in with all this is the idea that the new right-wing populism is shaping up as "isolationist." Senor Mak interviews some prominent tea-partiers, and is absolutely positively appalled:
"’It was a foolish decision to go to Afghanistan in the first place… [while] our own country’s borders are left open,’ continued Wiggim. ‘We have all this globalization. We don’t produce any of our own products, we always import everything. We need to focus on ourselves before we worry about any other country’s foreign issues.’"
Frum is an "open borders" conservative who believes the best thing we could do about our porous borders is "nothing." Besides, bringing up this issue, even in a national security context, is "racist." Forget about defending our borders, i.e. the actual territory of the continental United States, which is al-Qaeda’s primary target. Better to send our sons and daughters off to die in a distant field in the name of "democratizing" the wild men of Afghanistan.
Unlike a certain "paleoconservative" foreign policy "expert," Wiggim and his confreres are not at all intimidated by the "conventional wisdom" that our engagement in Afghanistan was or is inevitable, not to mention just or practical: they don’t care about getting links from Andrew Sullivan and the boys over at The Atlantic. Wiggim represents a growing number of grassroots right-wing populists who are once again emerging, as they did in the Perot movement, to scare the bejesus out of the elites, left and right. Which is why they’re getting attacked from both directions at once, not only from the Kossacks and the Hollywood Huffington-ites, but also from the neocons of Frum’s ilk.
The FrumForum reporter goes on to examine the depths of the tea-partiers’ "isolationist" depravity:
"Others expressed concerns that a robust foreign policy that extended American power around the world might conflict with the Tea Party movement’s concern for rising government spending. ‘When it comes to foreign policy… whatever policy is being developed needs to be fiscally responsible and isn’t going to burden the United States in debt,’ said Jenny Beth Martin, a national coordinator for the Tea Party Patriots, pointing out that while she wasn’t ‘necessarily opposed’ to having troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, it was costing the government quite a lot of money to maintain a presence."
Martin and the movement she is part of are on the cusp of learning the great lesson that conservatives of the cold war era failed to absorb: that the idea of maintaining a global military presence, including an empire of bases and an interlocking network of overseas military and financial "interests," rules out the limited-government agenda they so passionately embrace.
Of course, some, like William Buckley, did see the contradiction between limited-government constitutionalism and our foreign policy of global intervention, but drew the wrong lesson. In 1952, Buckley wrote that the Cold War conflict with the Soviet Union made it imperative for the U.S. to maintain “large armies and air forces, atomic energy, central intelligence, war production boards and the attendant centralization of power in Washington – even with Truman at the reins of it all.” In fact, he contended, “we have got to accept Big Government for the duration – for neither an offensive nor a defensive war can be waged … except through the instrumentality of a totalitarian bureaucracy within our shores."
One might write this off as indicative of the youthful Buckley’s penchant for hyperbole, but, as it turned out, his commentary proved to be a prescient vision of post-cold war futurity. This acceptance of Big Government, and embrace of "a totalitarian bureaucracy within our own shores," was epitomized by the Bush administration, which not only launched two wars and a massive assault on our constitutional liberties, but also grew government to gargantuan proportions and rang up an astronomical debt.
Today we are once again faced with a choice: perpetual war, and the extinction
of the conservative ideal of limited government, or a foreign policy that makes
fiscal and moral sense, i.e. one that puts America first. It looks like a growing
number of people – not just tea partiers, but a plurality of Americans, 49 percent
– long for a foreign policy in which America minds its own business, as a Pew
poll recently put it.
It may not be long before the tea partiers, in their majority, begin to realize
that, yes, it is necessary to oppose continuing the occupation of Afghanistan
– and a war that has lasted longer than both world wars combined – if they want
to realize their political goals. Jeffrey Johnson of Atlanta, Georgia, cited
in the FrumForum piece, has already made that connection:
"Under these harsh economic times, we need to pull back on our foreign spending, both from a military and financial aid standpoint… The troops should be withdrawn to reduce the financial tension on the United States. I would not have deployed troops to [either country]. We’re fighting something we can never win."
One can hear the hair standing up on the back of the FrumForum "reporter"’s neck as he avers:
"Some of the protesters invoked Ron Paul’s non-interventionist approach in explaining their foreign policy stances. ‘At heart, I’m increasingly a Ron Paul guy on foreign policy. We can’t be the world’s policeman… Iraq and Afghanistan could be too much for us to handle. The people there have to stand up. It’s their country,’ said John Tidwell of Bristol, Virginia."
The neocons hate Ron Paul, because he is the symbol of everything they have always opposed: liberty, populism, and, most of all, the Old Right, the pre-Buckley pro-free market "isolationist" movement that opposed the New Deal and Roosevelt’s wartime dictatorship. Paul’s supporters, organized in the Campaign for Liberty – and their very active youth section, Young Americans for Liberty – are the most well-organized and consciously ideological strain of the tea party movement. They also have the advantage of seniority: many of them were going to tea parties – yearly "Tax Day" demonstrations – long before it was cool.
However, the Paulian influence is increasingly being felt as the spearhead of a much broader anti-interventionist trend, not just on the right but generally, which is why otherwise conventionally conservative politicians like Rep. Josh Chaffetz (R-Utah) have found it necessary to express skepticism over Obama’s Afghan "surge" and come out for withdrawal.
The poor Frum-sters are scared out of their wits that conservatives are beginning to wake up to the fraud perpetrated by Frum and his fellow neocons for eight horrifically long years. The subtext of fear in Mr. Mak’s reportage jumps out at you as he concludes:
"As the tea party movement takes steps to translate their policy aspirations into political outcomes, conservatives should watch out for a new wave of Buchanan-esque isolationism. As these FF interviews indicate, support for the spreading of democracy in the world and even for free trade may wane as Tea Partiers either become more active in the GOP or start their own party."
The Frum-sters are terrified of the tea party crowd, and, from their perspective, with good reason. The movement was sparked by the TARP bailouts: right there, according to the Frumian dispensation, we are in dangerous anti-elitist territory, although the anger of the protesters is charitably characterized as "understandable." In his piece on the tea partiers, Mak writes:
"Jenny Beth [Martin] tells a poignant story about the repossession of her home, located on a busy street. One can’t help but feel pity for someone who had to bear the humiliation of having their earthly possessions strewn haphazardly across their front yard for all the passing traffic to see."
Yes, avers Mak, that’s all well and good, but the real priority is that the tea partiers have got to start policing their movement, ridding it of "undesirables" and "nuts" – no, not the discredited neocon nuts, or their failed Republican sock-puppets, but those evil "isolationists" whom Frum tried to read out of the conservative movement on the eve of the Iraq war.
In an infamous article for National Review, which this Canadian had the nerve to title "Unpatriotic Conservatives," Frum declared that the late Robert Novak, Buchanan, and an entire brigade of anti-interventionist conservatives and libertarians (including myself) who had the temerity to oppose George W. Bush’s ill-fated misadventure, were nothing less than traitors, "anti-American" supporters of terrorism (and, of course, anti-Semites all).
This, by the way, must have been National Review‘s tenth attempt – not counting Buckley’s embarrassingly ill-written and incoherent book, In Search of Anti-Semitism – to excommunicate Buchanan from the ranks. None succeeded, of course, and now Frum, the would-be political enforcer, has himself been cast out of the National Review fold, exiled to FrumForum and those left-liberal media outlets looking for a "conservative" to bash the Right. As the political scales begin to shift, and the right becomes increasingly anti-interventionist – partially in response to left-liberal support for Obama’s wars – the relentlessly pro-war Frum will find himself increasingly welcomed by the President’s media cheering section.
This neocon-liberal anti-populist alliance should come as no great surprise: as I’ve pointed out and predicted many times before, the neocons are not married to any particular party, since their true allegiance is to the War Party. They go where the power is, and whisper in the King’s ear. Theirs’ is a movement aimed at the elites, not the masses, and that brings us to the crux of the issue.
The very form of the Pew poll cited above is emblematic of what has got the tea partiers – and Americans more generally – in such an angry mood. The pollsters toted up two separate sets of numbers: one for the ordinary people, and the other set for the members of the Council on Foreign Relations, an elite group of policy wonks, heavy-hitters, and Washington insiders – in short, the sock-puppets of the financial and political elites that run the country, and preside over a global empire they desperately seek to maintain. Is it any surprise, then, that not a single member of this elite group thought we should mind our own business, while the hoi polloi – who have to pay for the whole wretched enterprise, in cash and the lives of their children – had the opposite opinion? On the bailouts, Obama-care, and the war – in short, on all the pressing issues of the day – we see this increasing divide between the people and the elites that rule in their name.
The Frums of this world hate and fear this polarizing trend, because they know how it will end: with a rising of the people against the tyrannical and increasingly unhinged elites, who will stop at nothing – including starting diversionary wars – to maintain their grip on the national purse.
Writing in the June 1998 issue of Chronicles magazine, I predicted:
“As the US stumbles, or is pushed, into another unwinnable land war in Asia, the antiwar protesters of the future will come from the ranks of the Right. Buchanan, and the editors of this magazine, in alliance with other conservatives and libertarians, stood firm against the war hysteria that preceded Gulf War I. This time around, with the stakes even higher, that same alliance has the potential to expand its ranks to include the overwhelming majority of Americans. Let our rulers unleash the dogs of war to mask their own corruption: they will ignite a social and political explosion that will make the sixties seem relatively tranquil.”
I may have been a bit ahead of my time, but, then again, that’s the value of reading this column regularly: you get to see farther over the horizon than the next election, or the next blog post. The Washington know-it-alls, the self-styled "experts," and the intellectual Praetorian Guard of the "too big to fail" crowd are riding for a fall. God willing, I’ll live to see it. We may not have "freedom in our time," as a libertarian slogan of the late 1960s put it, but revenge in our time is good enough for me.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Our Bloodstained Hands – February 7th, 2012
- The Syrian Crucible – February 5th, 2012
- Can Ron Paul Be Tamed? – February 2nd, 2012
- Iraq in Retrospect – January 31st, 2012
- Putting Israel First – January 29th, 2012





DavidSpero
December 21st, 2009 at 5:37 am
Justin, honey, there are ten antiwar people on the left for every one on the right. But we're glad to have as many of you as we can get.
mark green
December 21st, 2009 at 7:44 am
If the antiwar Left was so numerous, why are they so consistently ineffective?
Maybe it's because the Left is riddled with Zionist phonies who, even now, are sowing the seeds of discord between (formerly) Christian America and the Islamic world. Zio-Lefties talk of peace but insist on interfering in everyone's business and they see to it that Israel never pays a price for its campaign of genocide in Palestine or international warmongering.
Hacklheber
December 21st, 2009 at 9:13 am
But how many are playing submarine seems to be a direct function of the president's color. And I don't mean skin color.
Tweets that mention The Rising Tide by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com -- Topsy.com
December 21st, 2009 at 3:33 am
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Antiwar.com, Cindy Strout and Cheryl Jones, InfoFeeder. InfoFeeder said: infofeeder.info The Rising Tide [antiwar]: It’s hard being a neocon these days. Discredite.. http://bit.ly/5KvFLX [...]
Mark W. Stroberg
December 21st, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Justin,
What is this bee in your bonnet (original expression altered to be more polite) you've got regarding us consistent advocates of liberty and peace? You seem to want to tie "Open Borders" with "Neocon Foreign Policy." The fact is, consistent advocates of liberty and peace support BOTH open borders and a non-interventionist foreign policy. And we support them for the same reason — that all people everywhere have the same God-given natural rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They have these rights whether they are born in the United States, Mexico, Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other country. Just as we should not use government violence to bomb people in other countries into submission, we should not use government violence to persecute peaceful immigrants who come here to live, work, travel and educate themselves in a freer country that they were born in.
With the stroke of a pen, you are attempting to disenfranchise a large segment of the libertarian peace movement, those true libertarians who are consistent about both their domestic and foreign policy positions.
About 30 years back, I read an excellent article about this issue by a man I deeply respect entitled "Tear Down the Walls." It was written by someone named Justin Raimondo. He is very well known on the Internet so I'm sure you have heard of him. ;-)
Anti_Govt_Rebel
December 21st, 2009 at 6:00 am
It is uncanny how accurate Ron Paul's testimory in the House on 7-10-2003 was. The title of his speech was "Neo-conned, A Call to Arms" and it also came out in pamphlet form.
Every neocon belief he listed has now become clearly observable. Some major ones he listed in the speech are:
Redrawing the map of the middle east
preemptive war
ends justify the means
endorsement of empire
lying is necessary
Neutrality in foreigh affairs is ill-advised.
Unconditional support of Israel
GradyWilson
December 21st, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Seems like Justin would be better off attempting to find allies within DailyKos and Huffington Post readers rather than belittling them. I'd bet a large % of those readers are, like Justin, against US militant imperialism. Justin prefers, instead, to go all in with the Tea Baggers, pretending that they reject Bush/Cheney militarism and are not racist at all. Did he not see all the openly racist posters at the Tea Baggers rallies, the demographics of the group, and the foreign policy views of the group's benefactors? It’s telling that Raimondo embraces these reactionary Tea Baggers while constantly belittling the anti-war left. (btw – did anyone ever figure out who wrote Ron Paul's racist newsletters?)
ebquillen
December 21st, 2009 at 1:10 pm
One major advantage deriving from strict border and immigration control would have been to keep people like Canadian Frum out of the US. If he hadn't been able to attach himself remora-like to the Bushies he would no doubt be writing a scarcely read column for some local paper in Winnipeg.
ObamaKoolAidDrinker
December 21st, 2009 at 6:15 am
The American "antiwar" Right is like the American "antiwar" Left.
They are both political liars.
Don't drink their Kool-Aid.
When the opposing party is in power, they are feign "opposition" to war–for self-serving or partisan reasons.
But when their party/guy gets in power, they will quickly change their tune.
Don't think for a moment that these Right Wing antiwar frauds are sincere.
If Obama is a one-termer and a Republican gets in power, they will quickly turn–prolly just as fast as the Democrats did with Obama.
Big Neocon Neolib Government Wages War on Whites « Old Atlantic Lighthouse
December 21st, 2009 at 6:44 am
[...] http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/12/20/the-rising-tide/ [...]
GradyWilson
December 21st, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Q: "If the antiwar Left was so numerous, why are they so consistently ineffective?"
A: Because Washington, and 'both' parties, are owned and operated by capitalist imperialists.
Prinzowhales
December 21st, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Once upon a time a group of ernest Americans got together to form the Patriot Party near the Mall of the Americas in or between the Twin Cities. A platform was ernestly considered and passed that was just so nice and even-keeled that it made me want to wretch. It left the FED intact…which, if there is to be a litmus test for any party of 'change' on the Left or the Right, it is that that party or candidate call for the utter destruction of that particular head of the Beast. If the Tea Baggers are supporting the continued war, then they aren't worth anyone's time…Beck and the other Corporatists can march them off behind yet another conservative sell-out…endorsing a Bush…or a Hicksterbee…or a Romney…or some Dean-esque-like 'hero' of the 'Right'. Ending the war, by the way, the other litmus test for a real party of change. This party was eventually folded into the Reform Party…and was never heard of again.
mark
December 21st, 2009 at 7:48 am
You need to do your homework. The (neocon) Republicans and Dems alike are fakes and serial warmongers, yes. The likes of Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul are cut from a different cloth altogether. Get a clue.
stevieb
December 21st, 2009 at 3:01 pm
I'm a consistent advocate for peace and liberty too – but can see that 'open borders' have absolutely nothing to do with those.
All people have natural rights – should we abolish all private property too?
I don't understand your reasoning…
stevieb
December 21st, 2009 at 3:05 pm
BTW – I was wondering if you advocate for 'open borders' in Israel, as well.
Thanks
Old Man
December 21st, 2009 at 3:15 pm
right on Mark!
MvGuy
December 21st, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Having too many residents or voters citizens, voters or not….with foreign allegiances can lead to outcomes on issues and policies which do not benefit the country with these divided loyalties groups.
Look at AIPAC.. They are punching WAY OUT of their weight class solely BECAUSE of their obscured priorities.. It is not their fault, it is the fault of the country that allows it to occur. They use their common interests to band together to purchase various political offices to demand greater free money [aid] to buy more and more "aid" and military assistance.. They use the money to spy on the donor and undermine the donors resolve to pursue policies of optimum benefit to the people of the donor country. They are there ala Joe Lieberman, no we need the healthcare money to fight our….eerr…..your enemies…. "Thats it." We should chose who enters OUR country, not a hole in the fence…….
MvGuy
December 21st, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Left is right and right is left…well at least since the civil war
JohnDowser
December 21st, 2009 at 1:48 pm
The problem appears to be that the U.S has already lost its (psychological) borders altogether, with its large stakes into the globalized international market-place. Talking about foreign policy changes has to be coupled to the issue of globalization. If the U.S. ever wants to step out of this development, it should prepare to become a second-world country. And why would a US government pull the plug from or dump their share in the most successful global corporations? It seems our bankrupt form of capitalism just like dead and buried communism demands globalization and the wiping out of any competing ideology. Ideologies always behave like that and should therefore not inform foreign policies any longer: the separation of ideology and foreign policy as supplement to the divide between church and state.
Jane Doe
December 21st, 2009 at 9:18 pm
This guy needs to try to emigrate to Mexico — much tougher laws. Good luck amigo. Open borders should work both ways.
And why should we be spending trillions chasing Justin's fave Bogeyman, Osama, when member of his MYTHICAL merry band, Al Qaeda, can just walk across the Mexican border?
Stupidity all around.
RickR30
December 21st, 2009 at 10:45 pm
You wish.
RickR30
December 21st, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Liberty, peace AND open borders? No thanks. Nice idea for Europe in the 50s perhaps. Let Mexicans and Asians pursue happiness in their own countries. The US is not the only place to do that. Similarly, don't interfere with the life of Afghans and Iraqis by killing them all the time.
RickR30
December 21st, 2009 at 10:56 pm
What is the problem with the demographics of the Tea Party people?
RickR30
December 21st, 2009 at 11:04 pm
It seems then that Conservatives need to articulate a more nuanced foreign policy and educate folks about it. A policy that goes beyond sound-bites like "we need to mind our own business"- which while true doesn't really represent a foreign policy. The word "isolationism" needs to be attacked as well. It's non-sense. Not even Cuba and Iran are isolated. Plenty of countries conduct business with them- much to the chagrin of America-Israel. What needs to be said is what we are going to do aside from what we are not going to do. People everywhere still expect or play the game that America is the world's leader and nothing happens or gets done until the US signs off on something.
Neocon elite fearful of conservative embrace of isolationism
December 21st, 2009 at 6:40 pm
[...] [...]
anti_republocrat
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:48 am
As are Dennis Kucinich, Lynn Woolsey and a large number of writers at Counterpunch or CommonDreams. Peaceniks of all persuasions need to join together. At the federal level, many of the differences on individual domestic issues can be set aside by devolution to the states.
Nadorn85
December 22nd, 2009 at 4:10 am
Certainly not Ron Paul. As for him, Paul could do far more for the black community than Obama ever has and likely ever will by ending the drug war that criminalizes non-violent offenders. 'Racist' is thrown around about as easy as 'communist' these as the end-all be-all word that you can throw at your opponent to magically disregard any of his opinions, so it's rather hard to take seriously.
ObamaKoolAidDrinker
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:50 am
No, you need to get a clue. It ain't just the "Neocons" that are the problem and you know it.
It's the American Empire and all its bullshit politcal factions.
During 8 bloody years of the Bush Regime, Right Wingers and Republicans tacitly and overtly supported its crimes.
And Pat Buchanan is now considered a peace activist?
That's almost as hilarious as the unindicted American War Criminal in Chief winning the Nobel Peace Prize.
richard vajs
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Raimondo writes:
"(the neocons)…since their true allegiance is to the War Party"
War Party/Schmor Party .. their true allegiance is to Zionism
Mark W. Stroberg
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
stievieb,
I support open borders BECAUSE I support absolute property rights. Look at the following scenario and tell me where my analysis is wrong:
I am a native born American citizen who owns a factory, a school, and an apartment complex located on a road that I own which crosses the US – Mexican border. I voluntarily choose to engage in "capitalist acts" with a consenting Mexican man, allowing him to travel on my road across the border, employ him in my factory, rent to him an apartment in my complex, and enroll him in my school. Now tell me, whose property rights have I violated? And tell me, what gives you or anyone the right to use your precious socialist federal government to prevent me from doing this, violating both my own and the Mexican man's property rights?
It is clear you have not thought through this issue, using some kind of muddled "public property" concept. The fact is, YOU do not own all the property i this country, including property along the border, and you have NO RIGHT to prevent those who do own property and wish to deal with Mexican immigrants from doing exacctly that.
I don't understand your reasoning.
Mark W. Stroberg
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Whether Israel has open borders or not is not my decision, it is up to the Israelis. However, hypothetically, if I were an Israeli citizen, what would I do? I would advocate for open borders, absolute property rights, and a purely free market. Security would be left up to the free market where it belongs. Ultimately, I would pursue the elimination of the state of Israel, as well as all states everywhere, as I am an anarchocapitalist and don't believe ANY state has the right to exist. As a Christian, I cannot countenance the existence of ay institution as brutally violent as the state. Tensions would die down in the Middle East once the brutality of the state was eliminated.
stevieb
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Fair point, but your first post was probably poorly written. You probably meant those on the 'right' and 'left' who support either the Democratic party or the Republican party. In which case your claim is quite valid.
But I wouldn't define all anti-war Americans as phonies or liars. I imagine you wouldn't either.
Or do you?
stevieb
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Interesting utopian ideology. I suppose your following Libertarianism to the letter. All I can say is – good luck with that!
But I'm curious – why would security be "left up to the free market, where it belongs"?
Why does it belong there?
stevieb
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
You have to come up with a better example than one that has very little to do with present reality, once again Mark. What you've written (or how you've written it) is confusing and doesn't touch on the real issues involved with borders, nation states, globalization and private property rights.
I don't think you understand the issues enough to be quite as strident as you are…
stevieb
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
My apologies – you are an "anarchocapitalist" who doesn't believe any state has the right to exist. I've never heard of the term to be honest – so can I assume you're something of a right -wing Chomsky? Just kidding.
I think, however, that your ideology unfortunately is largely irrelevant to the present reality – and even less so as a means of of solving conflicts. imo.
freeta goodholm
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:43 am
Everybody hates Frum so what else is new?
Mark W. Stroberg
December 23rd, 2009 at 3:40 am
Did our current immigration laws stop AIPAC's influence? Did they prevent the 9/11 attacks? Asking our bumbling, incompetent federal government to protect us from terrorism is extremely naive if not downright criminal. I have heard the argument before that "those foreigners" do not share American values, but this is simply not true of immigrants who started life as foreigners. Nobody is more pro-America and supportive of liberty than those who risked everything they had, leaving their county and culture, career, even family ties behind, to come here to start a new life in a freer country than the one they originated from. The same arguments you use here regarding, presumably, Jewish Israeli immigrants (AIPAC) were used in the 19th century against the Italian, Irish, German, and Polish immigrants. Yes, a few Israeli immigrants are actually agents of a foreign power, but their influence on our government could be curtailed by severely limiting what our federal government was allowed to do (in this case in the foreign policy realm). Instead of harboring xenophobic ill-will against immigrants, join with me and other libertarians in trying to limit government instead of limiting people.
Mark W. Stroberg
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:14 am
If I were a Mexican citizen and were allowed to vote in Mexican elections, yes, I would push for open borders with the United States. But I am not and am not allowed to, so the issue is irrelevant.
Mark W. Stroberg
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:46 am
What about killing immigrants? The fact is that our current immigration restrictions cost the lives of hundreds of would-be Mexican immigrants each year. They die in trucks and catlle cars precisely because our socialist federal government tries to ignore (or our lawmakers are ignorant of) the laws of economic.
Mark W. Stroberg
December 23rd, 2009 at 6:36 am
stevieb,
Just for your info, "anarchocapitalism" is the anarchist form of libertarianism. Its advocates desire the establishment of a purely free-market society without any government ("Government" is defined here as an organization which has a monopoly on the definition and enforcement of retaliatory violence withing the geographic area it controls). The most prominent advocate of anarchocapitalism was Murray Rothbard, an economist of the Austrian school who had a tremendous influence on the development of the modern libertarian movement, including a great influence on Justin Raimondo (in Justin's youth, anyway). Anarchocapitalists have numerous practical and moral reasons for preferring anarchy to limited government. One reason I support anarchy is that only anarchism is consistent with all libertarians' beliefs regarding when violence is justified, ranging from "retaliatory violence is always justified" all the way to absolute pacifism. In particular, only in an anarchist society would absolute pacifists not be forced to support the institutionalization of violence. While I am not an absolute pacifist, I sympathize with those who are and feel that their rights are as important as anyone else's.
Mark W. Stroberg
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:48 am
You did not give even one example or explanation of where my logic is wrong. You simply asserted that I did not touch on the real issues involved. If you do have an argument, please give it. I am open to changing my mind if someone can show me where I am wrong.
I don't see how any thinking person could find my argument confusing as I have distilled the issues to their essentials in terms of the free market and property rights.
The only even remotely possibly valid argument anyone has ever given for immigration restrictions is the argument about the welfare state burden. But even that argument falls flat on its face when you take into account that advocates of liberty and peace oppose the existence of the welfare state. One should not use the existence of one form of tyranny (the welfare state) as a reason to impose another form of tyranny (legal restrictions on the free movement of peaceful people across international boundaries). ALL forms of tyranny must be opposed by people of good will.
ObamaKoolAidDrinker
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Like I said, the enemy is the American Empire.
That means the American state (regardless of who is in power).the US political class, and the grassroots supporters of this evil empire.
And yes, that means the bloodthirsty American people themselves.
Let them all reap what they have sewn.
Regulated Resistance: Is It Possible To Change The System When You Are The System?
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0504/S00267.htm
RickR30
December 23rd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
The federal government isn't killing immigrants. They are killing themselves. But the solution to that issue is not open borders but rather making sure those people don't make it past the border. In addition, Mexico and all these other countries need to get their act together so that half of their overpopulation doesn't try to get out of there no matter the danger.
But you can't seriously mean that that issue is more important than the millions of dead, injured, and displaced Iraqis and Afghans we are leaving in the wake of our foreign misadventures.
stevieb
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Really? You haven't specified in the example whether the business is in Mexico or in the U.S – you've simply stated that a road the example owns is in Mexico. So you believe in this individuals right of ownership to supercede the rights of others in these areas?
I don't. Because I don't believe that people who own property necessarily have more rights than those who don't.
Your 'example' simply raises more questions that it answers. It allows for one form of tyranny over another…
Mark W. Stroberg
December 23rd, 2009 at 6:40 pm
I thought it was obvious that the road was on both the US side of the border and the Mexican side. The three items I listed as belonging to me were on the US side of the border.. I apologize for the oversight. Now, I ask you again, where am I in error?
Mark W. Stroberg
December 23rd, 2009 at 7:35 pm
The issue of war and peace is paramount. There is no more important issue. As I said, I deeply respect Justin Raimondo and what he is doing. If Ron Paul runs for president again, I will support him. I feel this way about both men, even though I believe they are being inconsistent on the issue of immigration.
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