Israel: The End of the Dream
From "Exodus" to the apartheid state
When I was very young, I thrilled to the strains of "Exodus" – the music that accompanied the popular movie depicting the Israeli fight for independence. I played it over and over, every night, falling asleep to its crashing chords of defiance and deliverance. But it wasn’t just the music. As I grew older I was enamored of the Israeli narrative: a nation of exiles who forged for themselves a place that could be called home. For a somewhat alienated teen-ager, such as myself, who didn’t feel at home anywhere, the Israelis represented the outsider triumphant, a long-persecuted people who, in spite of everything, had carved out a place for themselves in the world.
This is the image that burned itself into my brain, and, like many Americans, Jews and non-Jews alike, I felt a bond with the Israeli people that could almost be called spiritual. Today, however – almost fifty years later – I have quite a different view of the Jewish state. Not even the musical score written by Ferrante and Teicher can erase the reality of a nation that systematically oppresses its Palestinian helots, a ruthless Sparta armed to the teeth (courtesy of my tax dollars) that is now engaged in a propaganda campaign designed to drag the United States into yet another unnecessary and horrifically destructive war in the Middle East.
I have been pointing to the growing danger of religious and political extremism in Israel for years. Now the evidence is pouring in, confirming my diagnosis in every particular.
First, the recent announcement that Israel’s largest party, Likud – the party of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu – is merging with Yisrael Beiteinu, a right-wing ultra-nationalist party founded by Avigdor Lieberman, a former bar bouncer who immigrated from Russia in 1978 and is now Israel’s foreign minister.
Lieberman was a member of the Likud youth group while studying international relations and political science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, where he was known for brawling with rival Arab student groups. According to Ha’aretz, at one point he was a member of the extremist Kach party of Rabbi Meir Kahane, now banned as a terrorist organization in Israel and listed as such by the US State Department. He denies this, but the only manner in which his views differ from the virulently racist and nationalist Kahanists is his relative secularism: for example, he wants the state-subsidized Haredim (Orthodox religious scholars) to be conscripted into the army, like everyone else.
Lieberman rose quickly through the ranks of Likud, eventually becoming Netanyahu’s chief of staff, but split to form his own party when the Wye River memorandum granting Palestinians some basic rights was signed by his boss.
From the beginning his party has been the voice of Russian Jews who emigrated in the wake of the Soviet Union’s collapse and felt alienated from Israeli society. The party fielded its first list of candidates to the Knesset in 1999 on a platform that included depriving Israeli Arabs of their citizenship. When the Labor party leadership nominated an Israeli Arab to the post of minister of science and technology, Yisrael Beiteinu deputies in the Knesset declared the Zionist state was in danger of losing its Jewish character.
Condemned as racists, the party nevertheless prospered, steadily increasing its share of the vote and its fraction in the Knesset. Their plan is to annex most of the West Bank, demand a loyalty oath from Israeli Arabs – and strip citizenship from those who refuse. They want to narrow the terms of the Law of Return – which guarantees citizenship to any and all Jews who emigrate to Israel – by restricting aliyah to born Jews and Orthodox converts: converts to Progressive and Reform Judaism need not apply.
Yisrael Beiteinu has been the loudest voice calling for war with Iran, and Lieberman – who once called for bombing the Aswan dam – revels in the role of warmonger. When he entered the government in 2006, it was on the condition of his appointment to a new cabinet position: Minister of strategic affairs, a post created to counter the alleged threat from Iran.
After the 2009 elections, the party emerged as the third largest in the nation, and entered a coalition government with Likud: Netanyahu made him Foreign Minister. Lieberman links the peace process with the Palestinians to the Iranian nuclear issue and says the former cannot continue as long as the latter is unresolved. He supports the settlement movement – although the settler types, intensely religious, disapprove of his party’s secularism – and had a memorable clash with Hillary Clinton over the issue. According to Lieberman, the Bush administration had agreed to allow the settlements, but Hillary wasn’t buying it.
He wants to execute members of the Knesset who meet with Hamas: faced with criticism from Israeli Arabs and the liberal wing of the Labor party, the thuggish Lieberman vowed that once he and his party take power "we’ll take care of you." With the rising tide of ultra-nationalist extremism in Israel, that day may not be far.
Which brings us to the second exhibit of evidence: a recent poll that shows the frightening dominance of racist and ultra-nationalist trends in Israeli society. The headline in Ha’aretz says it all: "Most Israeli Jews would support an apartheid regime in Israel." The paper reports:
"The majority of the Jewish public, 59 percent, wants preference for Jews over Arabs in admission to jobs in government ministries. Almost half the Jews, 49 percent, want the state to treat Jewish citizens better than Arab ones; 42 percent don’t want to live in the same building with Arabs and 42 percent don’t want their children in the same class with Arab children."
The bullied have become the bullies.
According to the survey, "a sweeping 74 percent majority is in favor of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank." Even more ominously, "Almost half – 47 percent – want part of Israel’s Arab population to be transferred to the Palestinian Authority." In short, they favor ethnic cleansing. Among the disgusting details of this comprehensive scientific poll is this interesting tidbit:
"Most of the Jewish public (58 percent) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs. Only 31 percent think such a system is not in force here."
When American critics of Israeli government policies describe it as an "apartheid state" they are simply agreeing with the views of the majority of Israelis, who know apartheid when they see it – and live it. Yet this designation is regularly cited by Israel’s American amen corner as prima facie evidence of "anti-Semitism." By this standard, 58 percent of the Israeli public can now be classified as anti-Semites.
The surge of openly racist passions has fueled increasing violence against the Arab minority: recently a crowd of hundreds of football hooligans – of the type that, in Europe, are often the shock troops of neo-Nazi parties – shouting "Death to Arabs!" swept through the streets of Jerusalem, beating any Arab they could find. The police did nothing to stop them, and, as far as I can tell, none have been arrested.
The Israel of today is not the Israel of "Exodus." It is not the Israel of the democratic egalitarian Labor tradition, symbolized by the kibbutz: it is, in fact, no longer the only democracy in the region – it is, instead, an increasingly tribalist and anti-democratic state, a militaristic society dominated by ethnic and religious exclusivism, and a dangerously expansionist one to boot.
In championing Israel’s cause, Mitt Romney and his Republican cohorts continually refer to our alliance with the Jewish state as reflective of American values, contrasting this with the "realist" view which subordinates values to interests. This may have been true in the early days of the Zionist enterprise, but it is far from true today: indeed, Israel is taking a path which can only end in the dark abyss of tribalism, religious fundamentalism – and war.
It is, for me, a sickening process to observe from afar – because I still remember my youthful vision of a benevolent Promised Land, and a people whose oppression made them sensitive to the oppression of others. I remember the strains of "Exodus" ringing in my ears, as I fell asleep to the sound of yearning and triumph over evil.
NOTES IN THE MARGIN
A lot of what I write in this space is prefigured on Twitter, and I urge you to join me there, where we can have a real dialogue. Go here to sign on my Twitter feed.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Edward Snowden vs. the Sovietization of America – June 18th, 2013
- A Note to My Readers – June 16th, 2013
- Datagate and the Death of American Liberalism – June 13th, 2013
- Smear Brigade Goes After Snowden – June 11th, 2013
- Edward Snowden, American Hero – June 9th, 2013





mmckinl
October 25th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Excellent commentary … sadly all too true …
RudyM
October 25th, 2012 at 9:58 pm
The so-called Jewish state was a nightmare from its inception, and some of us are anxiously awaiting its end.
Johnny in Wi.
October 25th, 2012 at 10:01 pm
I guess it has been headed this way ever since the beginnings of Israel. The ethnic cleansing was always the goal ever since Ben Gurion. They just want to build their ghetto on stolen land, supported forever by American blood and treasure. I don't think Exodus was ever anything but a big fairy tale just like all the other Zionist BS I have read and seen in the last 60 years. Anothr great job Justin.
robert emmet
October 25th, 2012 at 10:36 pm
While I agree with Mr Raimondo on many subjects and his in-depth analysis on the issues of the day I think he misses the point. Israel is an ilegitimate country. Imperialists created , then imposed Israel's existence on an indigenous population (Palestinian Arabs) that resulted in expulsion, ethnic cleansing.
Avi G.
October 25th, 2012 at 10:58 pm
Justin writes:
"The Israel of today is not the Israel of "Exodus." It is not the Israel of the democratic egalitarian Labor tradition, symbolized by the kibbutz: it is, in fact, no longer the only democracy in the region – it is, instead, an increasingly tribalist and anti-democratic state, a militaristic society dominated by ethnic and religious exclusivism, and a dangerously expansionist one to boot. "
—————————————————————————————————–
Actually, Israel was always the Israel of today, the only difference is that the voices of racism and fanaticism were well hidden from Americans, all thanks to the mainstream media.
That whole "Kibbutz", "egalitarian" quip is evidence that you have yet to come to terms with the myth about Israel that you were sold here in the U.S during the 1960s and 1970s.
For example, absent from your consciousness is the barbarity and brutality of the Nakbah of 1947-1949, or the systematic and premeditated ethnic cleansing.
Israel didn't suddenly morph into what it is today. Simply, your awareness and knowledge about Israel have changed.
Israel was always the same as it is today. The difference is that the Internet has facilitated and allowed these truths to become widespread, well beyond Israel's borders.
So instead of having to drive down to your local Borders store to read Ma'ariv in English, you are now able to get poll results straight from Ha'Aretz's website.
This is but one example of how awareness has affected your perception about Israel.
Please wake up, Justin.
patriothere
October 25th, 2012 at 11:05 pm
Not for me. I always saw the "chosen people" as an alien people. Completely alien to everything I stand for and was raised by. I wish Iran DOES wipe Israel off the map. If only they had the american governments backing!
larry
October 25th, 2012 at 11:50 pm
You can only believe in apartheid state if you believe what the Arabs say. But the truth is different. The Arabs do not desire peace; they want Israel gone, gone forever.
Israeli politicians since before the establishment of the state desired to have Arabs in the country and to have peace with the Arabs.
The real problem is that no Westerner reads the Koran.
The Koran divides the world into 'dir al charev' and 'dir al islam'.
Dir al Charev is the rest of the world that Islam must conquer. Dir al Islam is that portion of the world that has already been conquerer and brought under Islamic rule.
Europe and USA is dir al charev and needs to be conquered, but Israel is dir al Islam since it was under Turkish (muslim) rule. This is unacceptable that infidels have taken it from them so they can never accept Israel as a non muslim state.
The Koran also shows how Muhammad used falsehood to conquer his enemy; what the prophet did is an example of how muslims should act.
Israel did not make itself an apartheid state; rather the Arabs refuse to live with them and give Israel little choice but to protect themselves.
I recommend that no one believe what I have written, rather get a Koran (in English) and read it from cover to cover. You will not be converted; but you will be enlightened as to the Islamic mind.
pshr
October 26th, 2012 at 12:21 am
Actually, that is a good idea:)
Dr.Khan
October 26th, 2012 at 12:41 am
Please,Don't make Iran do what Israel is well equipped to do it to themselves.and then don't blame Muslims for that in general.
Israel is well on its way to selfdestruct.and that you can confirm with the behaviour and attitude of majority of the Israelis in the apartheid state.Do you believe with this kind of behaviour they have a chane to live long?I highly doubt it.
Dr.Khan
October 26th, 2012 at 12:42 am
very well said Avi G.
Yonatan
October 26th, 2012 at 12:57 am
Still taking the Ziocaine, Larry?
sherban
October 26th, 2012 at 1:35 am
The number of "minus"you'll receive should be equal with the number of readers of the article such is the perfid your lie.
sherban
October 26th, 2012 at 2:00 am
Excellent article but…You speak about Israel while confounding it with bibi and lieberman.The results of the poll regarding how Jews view Arabs amazed me because i waited for worse numbers.If you take in consideration how is educated an Israeli since first years in kindergarten until maturity you'll be suprised that are still people who think different.Sometimes i'm reading that in US are less freedom than in Israel to criticize Israel.It is not quietly non true.There are not in Israel media people like you,Giraldi,etc.etc,etc.Even Chomsky reputation as the greater intelectual of present time was publicized -this only because he is jewish-not a political article of him appear in Israel,not one of his book,not one of Finkelstein and so on.Futile to speak about James Petras,Bloom,St.Lendman ,James Cook etc.But take for instance how Iran and Ahmadinejad became Hitler and the "threat of the Planet.No one from all cited before as progresists and speaking the truth about Israel didn't deny Israel accussation against Ahmadinejad (Assad,Gaddafi).Every one agreed with how Israel described him as demented,moron,large mouth,irresponsible.So,only when Israel (and US) propaganda will be attacked from the beginning and Israel(and US and the free world) will be ridiculized only then the masses in Israel (and US and "free world") will have something to say.But then they will be not asked.
sherban
October 26th, 2012 at 2:01 am
I would thank you if my comments will be approved
james
October 26th, 2012 at 2:27 am
So Justin, if events turned out different in the M.E., you would be OK with the creation of Israel on the blood and tears of the Palestinians?
This is a subjective question and I want an answer.
Oso Politico
October 26th, 2012 at 4:28 am
I, too, believe that from the very beginning, the Zionists planned on a 'greater' Israel.
The two state solution was a sham.
What happens now – massive ethnic cleansing under the pretext of war?
Mark
October 26th, 2012 at 4:48 am
Perhaps Israel DOES reflect "American Values", the values ensconced in Manifest Destiny. Russell Means died this week or maybe we could have asked him.
Benjacomin Bozart
October 26th, 2012 at 5:29 am
The Exodus ship was the President Warfield, a ship from the Baltimore Steam Packet Company and ran on the Old Bay line. It was bought by the Mossad in 1947 and sailed from France to Palestine and renamed Exodus.
I went the same route Justin. I was in East Africa during the 6 day war rooting on the IDF. I feel pretty guilty about it these days.
antiwar7
October 26th, 2012 at 5:33 am
A minor point, but the quote states "most of the Jewish public (58 percent) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs," whereas Justin paraphrased it as "58 percent of the Israeli public."
The original statement is the stronger one, if it indeed refers to just the Jewish citizens of Israel, and not the Arab and other citizens.
Didi
October 26th, 2012 at 5:40 am
Indeed. When the founder of Zionism Herzl was asked what he thought of the Balfour Declaration he is reported to have answered "we will take the half loaf today and the rest later". In other words "we will wipe Palestine off the map".
Didi
October 26th, 2012 at 5:42 am
Quote: The Arabs do not desire peace; they want Israel gone, gone forever.
In the real world it is Israel which is busy wiping Palestine off the map.
Margaret
October 26th, 2012 at 6:12 am
Larry I have read it cover to cover and I actually know very well many muslims…(bet u don't)
They do NOT view the world in the way you describe and they are NOT trying to take over the planet……. But don't let reality or FACTS get in the way of your hate and ideology.
guest
October 26th, 2012 at 6:35 am
Herzl,Jabotinsky,and Ben Gurion and along with other Zionst with less name recognition have espoused two contradictory approaches of softly speaking of reconciliation,joint exercises,joint development projects and co equal existence in a non religious secular pluralistic Plaestinian entity to Arabs but to thier own brthern they have always made it clear that the route toa Zionist state lay in buying the lands,transferring the inidgenous,forcing the eviction ,and disbarring the local Arabs from any jobs while securing the support of European and later US power by tieing those countries to that of Israel through some invented common grounds. The book Exodus was also "invented" It was book commisioned by Israel to inculcate large number of young and old with the ideas of Jewish moral strengths and physical vulnerabilities along with Arab cowardice and moral weakness . This was an exercise not in isolation.It jelled well with similar attempts to sway or force public opinion by massive propangda in the West ,by powr grab in Hollywood,media,academia,labor organizations,and in religious set up and in various rungs of Governement bureaucracy.
no nmae
October 26th, 2012 at 6:57 am
Larry raises some interesting points. I see the world divided between Us and Them of Bush, between International community made of US ,Israel ,UK,France,Micronesia and the rest rebuked by the former for choosing the wrong side of the history ,and for not choosing the democratic new world occupied by 4 countries with less than 500 million popualation and for choosing the 150 plus countries iwth 6 billions .ITo that world of "undemocracy" Israel bars US dignataries from travelling in case they end up understanding Irainan events better .The world is divided between what Israel allows and what it does not.
guest
October 26th, 2012 at 6:58 am
At home Israel divides the space between those occupied by Jewish and those occupied by non _jeiwsh with differnetial opportunities ,racial laws and power and priviliges never forgetting that the space of the former need to grow at the expenses of the latter non -jews . Israel inputs same fuel to the dreams of the Evangelics of return of Jesus.It provides religious inputs to the cries of millions of thsoe who utter "next year in Jerusalem" while emptying the space occupied by non Jewish . Yes the world in didvide but not in the terms of those written in Koran but in those written by Jewish founders and rewritten by the neocons
musings
October 26th, 2012 at 7:08 am
I am not sure they can't hold on for half a century as the threatened bloody dictatorship in which political foes are called traitors and shot against a wall. Look how long the Soviet Union persisted in all of its outrages to human rights. Those who were loyal to it also believed that it began in way that made them proud of its earthly sacredness. The Proletariat was the equivalent of the Chosen. But the methods used to maintain that supremacy of the proletariat (killing kulaks and other outrages) were in fact inherent in the original design, and that is what I fear about Israel. The premises of the founding have serious problems. The same might be said of some of America (the Puritan stronghold) but not of all of it (New York). If Israel is really setting out to create apartheid, as seems the "popular will" (?), then it may stagger on for decades in that life-sapping state (complete with witch trials), but it will have to reject those premises in order to survive longer. I wonder if it is possible to do a turnaround before it gets worse.
musings
October 26th, 2012 at 7:13 am
Perhaps, to be fair, someone ought also to read the Bible cover to cover. While I consider it inspiring and wonderful (having been brought up as a Christian – incidentally as a Christian with gratitude towards the Jewish writers of the Bible as well), it is also full of cruel wars in which every inhabitant of some territory is wiped out on the say-so of God's so-called orders. I would imagine those who take those parts of the Bible seriously (to the exclusion of the more gentle passages) include both fanatic Jews and fanatic anti-Jews. The rest of us can ignore it so that we can embrace the parts we like, and even forget that it is just as bloody as the Koran.
musings
October 26th, 2012 at 7:17 am
Don't think all those cowboy movies of an earlier, with settlers circling the wages to Indian attacks didn't have another purpose. They translated well into a perspective about Israel. On the other hand, the back story of the Israeli settlers was the horrendous Holocaust, not to be lightly dismissed any more than the Potato Famine which sent millions of immigrants to America or the pogroms in Russia of the same century a few decades later.
johnc
October 26th, 2012 at 7:21 am
Deal, I promise to read the Koran in english — even Pam Geller's translation– If you read Peter Dale Scott's *American War Machine.*
abe
October 26th, 2012 at 7:48 am
Did you know AIPAC has ONE major donor! Just one who gives millions and a few fools give other minor amounts. My bet, and I would bet the house, that the major single donor is American tax money given to the jewish state via foreign aide and this money is turned on Politicans who vote
" against" poor ole israel!
PEACE EVER AFTER
October 26th, 2012 at 7:52 am
I too was fooled by the book and movie Exodus. I thought that Israel was a part and parcel of western civilization transplanted among the semi civilized Arabs. My turning point came in June 1967 following the assault on the USS Liberty. I then realized how I had been fooled. Subsequently, I learned of the many other attrocities commited by the Zionist and how our government was complicit in their coverup.
Samm
October 26th, 2012 at 7:52 am
Well said. Ziocaine can be very dangerous for some poeple.
Sam
October 26th, 2012 at 8:04 am
Well said. Ziocaine can be very dangerous for some people.
Sundar
October 26th, 2012 at 9:04 am
justin,
your pain of disillusionment is still very palpable since i have been going through the same process. my "love" affair with israel started with the 6-day-war and had i not only been 12 i would have volunteered to help fight the bad, bad arabs. from then on i followed middle-east politics closely, would have loved to work in a kibbuz and read every book on jewish history, the holocaust and the state of israel that i could get my hands on. exodus i read at least 3 times. the israelis were my heroes and every support for them was justified.
i also assumed, after all the jews went through in 2000 years, not to mention the holocaust, this must have produced an almost superior being: tolerant, social, caring and what not, and that treating others the way they had been treated would be totally alien to them. thus, they would be a shining example to the rest of the world.
one might say, oh, that's already several generations ago and gradually disappearing from the public mind, but, of course, we know that in israeli schools and public discourse they are making damn sure not one iota will ever be forgotten. it's their whole raison d'etre.
like you, we were only projecting our hopes and wishes on israel and projecting things on others, even if well founded, always is a mistake and bound to lead to disappointments. for me, it has only been in the last 15 years, and very very gradually at first, that my focus on the middle east changed. i see israel becoming a pariah which still pains me greatly and looking back at my blindness makes me deeply ashamed. there certainly are things in the arab/muslim world that i do not condone and many problems have grown in their own yard, but i see how they have been treated by the west for over 100 years and they have every right to feel very pissed off.
as to you, justin, it's the first time i meet somebody, albeit on the internet, with the same experience. kind of nice to know. thanks for putting that in writing.
Dr.Khan
October 26th, 2012 at 9:09 am
Larry contrary to all those and inspite being a Mozzzlim I will give you a thumbs up and +.but you know why…becuase
''I recommend that no one believe what I have written, rather get a Koran (in English) and read it from cover to cover. You will not be converted; but you will be enlightened as to the Islamic mind''.
At the end you atleast suggested something very healthy.Thanks for that REALLY. I request to all those who will take Larry's challange try find where exactly all that stuff he(larry) so scholastically emphised on is or written.along please do not miss why and where in the Quran says..LA IKHRAHA FI DIN''.meaning There is no compulsion in Religion,one,number 2.the 6th last surat tilte.Alkafiroon..which literally means to the wish of many like Larry''the infidals''.and what it ends with is ''Lakum dinukum waliya din''..''to you your faith and me mine''.
The rest you guys can go and read it all up.you will not be converted but you will acquire alot of wisdom I promise since the key to be guided in the rightous path is held by God almighty,not me,not Mohammad PBUH.It is unto Him whom he blessed with the light to right path OR keep my friend Larry astray…Love peace and harmony to all.
liberranter
October 26th, 2012 at 10:00 am
[Israel] is, in fact, no longer the only democracy in the region
Sorry, Justin, but you're wrong on this one. Given the true definition of democracy (i.e., rule by the majority, also known as "the tyranny of the mob"), Israel is more of a "democracy" today than ever before in its history. The Jewish majority is dispossessing, persecuting,and stripping the humanity from the Arab minority because that is what the majority wants. This is one of the best living examples of why our own founders went out of their way to make this country a republic and NOT a "democracy" (they failed miserably in their goal, but it was a noble effort).
[Israel] is, instead, an increasingly tribalist and anti-democratic state, a militaristic society dominated by ethnic and religious exclusivism, and a dangerously expansionist one to boot.
Again, your statement here gives full weight to my first assertion. Democracy goes hand-in-hand "tribalism," "militarism," and "religious exclusivism" when a nation is populated by a majority that would seek to purge itself of a minority.
Agvo
October 26th, 2012 at 10:05 am
Justin, what you felt and believed in your youth was the result of the effectiveness of the Zionist propaganda in this country. The people who were ethnically cleansed during the creation of the State of Israel certainly didn't feel that a great country was being born, they only felt the pain of being dispossessed and made homeless in their own country. It has taken two generations before some Americans realized what an injustice it was to create this artificial state, that has been nothing but a disaster for the rest of the world.
Rich
October 26th, 2012 at 10:07 am
No such thing as dhimitude? That will be welcome news to the Christians and Jews of Islamic dominated societies. No calls for conversion by the sword? Imagine all the new Christian churches that can now sprout up throughout Saudi Arabia. It will be a pleasure to carry my Bible and speak to all the people across the Middle East about my religion. I can't wait to visit Constantinople and see all the new Christian priests. Oh, love and harmony.
liberranter
October 26th, 2012 at 10:10 am
"most of the Jewish public (58 percent) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs,"
I would be curious to know whether that is an indicator of whether the Jewish majority supports such a situation or whether it is merely acknowledging it to be fact (I suspect I know the answer, but would still like to see even semi-scientific polling data to support it).
A very special Jihad for EID....Happy EID to all posters - Page 2 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
October 26th, 2012 at 10:11 am
[...] former KACH member Lieberman Here's a personal view of an american one time deep lover of israel: Israel: The End of the Dream by Justin Raimondo — Antiwar.com chances of war up 50% I would [...]
Rich
October 26th, 2012 at 10:18 am
It is indeed a sad situation in the middle east and I would not disagree that the Arab population of Palestine has a legitimate argument about the loss of their native land, but the fact is that Israel does exist. It is not going away. The Israelis will never allow themselves to be driven into the sea. Does anyone on this site think the Israelis will not use nuclear weapons if they are about to be defeated? Accepting the fact of Israeli existence and the fact that the police state in Israel is a necessary evil to prevent suicide bombings and other terrorist activity will allow the players in the conflict to come to some kind of negotiated settlement. Arafat should have taken the deal offered him, it wasn't everything he wanted, but the Palestinians are negotiating from just about the weakest position possible. They are defeated. That's just a fact. Unless the Palestinians accept the facts, as the Germans and Japanese had to after WWII, they will continue to suffer.
Mark Thomason
October 26th, 2012 at 10:32 am
Apartheid is the least of what they intend. You give them too much credit.
They intend mass deportations, effected by mass murders and open terrorism. They intend the ugliest sort of ethnic cleansing. They write about it often. They excuse it by talk of the Post War population movements of Germans and Poles. They are quite explicit, and they are not kidding.
If it were only apartheid, then there would be more time to deal with the atrocity coming that will be done in our name and with our help.
Jane
October 26th, 2012 at 11:09 am
"The Proletariat was the equivalent of the Chosen. But the methods used to maintain that supremacy of the proletariat (killing kulaks and other outrages) were in fact inherent in the original design, and that is what I fear about Israel."
Yes, you've got it. Many of these Proletariat/Bolshevist/Zionists, killing and pillaging in Russia during the Russian Revolution, were some of the same folks that headed for the British Mandate of Palestine to set up shop and began the same vicious and brutal tactics of killing, displacement and confiscation of property that they had employed against the Kulaks or peasant populations across Russia. These Zionists were by then old hands at this sort of crusade. And I DO NOT agree that the Zionist enterprise that is Israel will be able to "stagger on for decades" on its present course and considering the statistics Justin provided, it doesn't appear that there are enough sane and moderate Israeli citizens left to turn it around.
Kolya_Krassotkin
October 26th, 2012 at 11:11 am
"…like many Americans, Jews and non-Jews alike, I felt a bond with the Israeli people that could almost be called spiritual. Today, however – almost fifty years later – I have quite a different view of the Jewish state."
In our youths many of us had feeling toward Israel similar to your own. Decades later many of us also take a very different view toward the Jewish state.
Did Israel somewhere lose her way and become a different entity from the one we knew in our adolescence? Or, were they always a racist society and were we just to young to recognize it? Either way, unless American and Israeli policies change drastically, this will not end well, neither for Israel nor the United States.
mickperry
October 26th, 2012 at 11:13 am
But isn't that the whole point? Just like every other nation state, Israel founded itself on expulsion and ethnic cleansing. In the case of the US its foundation included actual genocide of tens of millions of the original inhabitants.
Every God-damned national state is an illegitimate state, including yours, wherever you're from, because they were all founded on violence.
ATM
October 26th, 2012 at 12:08 pm
Yes good point Israel has made it very clear that the intend on suicide bombing the rest of the world with nuclear war heads if we stop supporting their apartide regime. Same kind of formula that n Korea is using if we stop feeding them. We must be experiencing a form of national Stockholm syndrome.
musings
October 26th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
To those who disagree with this statement of mine, I still think the analogy can hold: neither the Native Americans nor the Palestinians had ANYTHING to do with the original upsets that sent immigrants packing into what proved anything but empty territory. That is why eventually some concessions (however paltry) were made to Indians, as well as the end of the myth that theirs was an aggression of motiveless malignity. The Israelis aren't there yet with the Palestinians, and they may never arrive.
davidj8800
October 26th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
Israel would go away in short order if it didn’t have the US backing both it and the Kingdom of Jordan and Egypt. Such backing keeps both Israel militarily strong and millions of Palestinians in and outside of Israel powerless. Israel’s nukes are useless in a local neighborhood guerrilla war.
ATM
October 26th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
Yes the nuclear game that Israel is playing is to terrorize rest of the world into helping them. Seems to be working given their history of terrorizing the british and others in Palestine until they left. Bibi most likely has Obama convinced that they have planted a few in the US or that they would turn the worlds major oil reserves into carbon if we so much as reduce our aid.
Louise Danceanu
October 26th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
I live in a ex-communist country. And now I see around me the same “deception”, but about USA, not Israel. For us, the “american dream” turned into a nightmare of fear. We discovered the amazing truth that America – the ”land of promises and liberty”, “the country of all opportunities”, to which we looked with hope and trust, is actually an imperialist State, not a democracy. For us it is alsoo “the end of dream”. American dream!
bobroddis
October 26th, 2012 at 3:30 pm
Justin,
This is the first mistake you've ever made. The "Exodus" music was written by Ernest Gold (father of Andrew Gold who played guitar on Linda Ronstadt's mid-70s albums) and who was married to Marni Nixon who sang for Natalie Wood in "West Side Story" and Audrey Hepburn in "My Fair Lady". Ferrante and Teicher did have the biggest hit with it. Apparently, Pat Boone wrote the lyrics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Gold_(compose…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Boone
The Ventures also did a surf music version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpx6ZBdKpbM
Medicine_Crow
October 26th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
*sigh* The world was much more simple when only the Human Beings were here. Then the white people and the black white people came and brought nothing but trouble for the Human Beings, and we were rubbed out until only a few remain. How can even a rock survive when all you want to do is make everything dead?
Jaime
October 26th, 2012 at 3:59 pm
So everybody should be happy with the current situation in Palestine?
MvGuy
October 26th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
By Dominic Waghorn
The Israeli army is at the centre of a second controversy over the moral conduct of its soldiers in as many days.
The revelations centre on t-shirt designs made for soldiers that make light of shooting pregnant Palestinian mothers and children and include images of dead babies and destroyed mosques.
The t-shirts were printed for Israeli soldiers at the end of periods of deployment or training courses and were discovered by Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
One, printed for a platoon of Israeli snipers depicts an armed Palestinian pregnant women caught in the crosshairs of a rifle, with the disturbing caption in English: "1 shot 2 kills".
Another depicts a child carrying a gun also in the centre of a target.
"The smaller, the harder," read the words on the t-shirt.
According to a soldier interviewed by the newspaper, the message has a double meaning: "It's a kid, so you've got a little more of a problem, morally and also the target is smaller." http://news.sky.com/story/678761/israeli-army-t-s…
Tony
October 26th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Margaret… then what is the purpose of all the Muslims rioting and carrying signs which say that Islam will dominate Europe and the Islamic flag will one day fly over the White House in the United States? Why are so many Imams calling for Jihad and a world wide Caliphate? Why would you believe that Muslims only want to live in peace when they have a 1,400 year history of conquest and bloodshed? Just because in your short life time the few Muslims you have known are not the bloodthirsty kind demanding the beheading of everyone who will not convert to Islam, does not make you an expert on Islam. Every Muslim who wishes to do the will of Allah is commanded by the Qur'an to perform Jihad until there is none left that do not bow to Allah. But, since you have read the Qur'an from cover to cover, you already know this.
MvGuy
October 26th, 2012 at 4:34 pm
Hey,,,,,
Ben_C
October 26th, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Interesting… I can definitely 'relate' to this on a certain level….
http://youtu.be/ff0oWESdmH0
Dustbin
October 26th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
Mr. Raimondo should not hold it against Avigdor Liberman that he was a former bar bouncer in Moldavia any more than one should hold it against Martin Ludwig Bormann for being a pig farmer in Mecklenburg. (Although their mutual dispositions are parallel: One considers Arabs as subhuman and the other did ditto for the Slavs.)
The salient point that I take away from the article “Israel: The End of the Dream
From "Exodus" to the apartheid state”, is that Israel is the ‘Ugly Head of Semitism’.
Like Just like Mr. Raimondo indicates I also was a somewhat isolated teenager. (We were a common breed in the 1950’s. (Think James Dean et. al.) However, I was never enamored with the rape of Palestine as Mr. Raimondo evidently was. I vaguely recall that my aversion to the taking of Palestine had something to with an observation Gandhi made in 1937 on the subject. Anyhow, I like to think that my intrinsic instincts trumped the whole narrative of the romanticism of the Exodus promoted by my English teacher in junior high school. To me the whole Exodus hype ab-initio was nothing but a propaganda cover for a putrid land grab and murderous ethnic cleansing extravaganza. (Okay okay my use of the descriptive ‘rape ‘ supra was to benign.
I have always thought that it ludicrous that human beings can even hoist up a ‘God is a Real Estate Broker for a Chosen Few” belief system with a straight face. If the creation of Israel was like, Mr Raimondo suggests, a “Dream”, it was a foul foul dream. The dream at its core was always at its heart a promotion by religious thugs advancing the sanctimonious farce of a preordained home land.
I say all this while conceding that Mr. Raimondo has have lived and is living a braver, more articulate, more productive life, in the field of ideas then this squirrel. And Hey I am not a total fan of the guy. I find his economics a sorry anathema to humanity’s potential for peaceful planet sharing.
Still Mr. Raimondo has earned his accolades. He separates himself from other commentators on the issue of the Jewish state whom impress as ‘The cowards of Antiwar.com’ type. Think here the Jacob Hornbergers.
Parting comment: Be sure: The establishment of the Jewish state will have asterisk (*) referencing its entry into some final fat tome on the History of Western Atrocities. Read the asterisk: *The religious/politico/ commentator big wigs of the west for the great most part have lauded or remained silent regarding the ethnic cleansing of a pacific people and the establishment of the colonial pustule proclaimed as Israel.
Dustin (aka Dustbin)
Tony
October 26th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Dr. Khan… I have read much of the Qur'an and the Hadith. I would probably have read all of it but the stupidity of most of it is more than my mind can stand. i.e Hadith Qudsi 36, a "prophesy" of the day of judgement, which is no prophesy at all, but rather an attempt to exalt Muhammad as being greater than anyone who ever came before him including Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, and Jesus, all of whom are found to be ashamed to go into the presence of the Lord God. Until of course Muhammad arrives on the scene, then he will go into the presence of God. Moses was not allowed to enter the presence of God because he had once killed a man. But, apparently, the fact that Muhammad personally tortured and murdered thousands of people, took slaves and concubines, and had sex with a 9 year old little girl does not preclude Muhammad from entering the presence of God. No, trust me, the Qur'an has no redeeming qualities except for the backward 14th century mind of barbarians that have been brainwashed since birth to believe that every non Muslim is swine, less than human, and are to be conquered in the name of Allah.
wbilct
October 26th, 2012 at 5:40 pm
Larry, I haven't read the Koran, but I've read the Old Testament, especially Deuteronomy 20:16. I find that enlightening.
Jaime
October 26th, 2012 at 6:17 pm
Yours is an excellent recommendation. I won't believe a word of what you say. Qualifying a people by the book(s) they read even if it their sacred book is not very wise. The Old Testament is full of barbaric customs such as God's order to Joshua to kill every single man, woman, child and even animal. What do you think about this? Very kind eh? And this is the book Christians and Jews believe in.
Jaime
October 26th, 2012 at 6:48 pm
Your problem is that you are so stupid that you take a book full of religious symbolisms as if it were reality. No wonder the book is "more than [your] mind can stand".
musings
October 26th, 2012 at 7:17 pm
Come on Holocaust deniers – show your faces.
JJJihad
October 26th, 2012 at 8:27 pm
I missed out on a youthful period of romantic identification with the Jewish state. In the late 60s and into the 70s, the US media relentlessly drilled into our heads tales and images of scrappy Jews fighting for survival against the evil Arabs–they were Arabs back then, remember? Not "Islamists?" As a run of the mill kid in the suburbs, I knew the names and faces of Meir, Begin, Dayan, et al far better than those of American politicians. And I never gave it a second thought until the afternoon of 9/11/2001, when I heard Netanyahu on US radio making a speech about how the US and Israel had been brought together for all eternity in the struggle against Muslim terrorism –and knew, for certain, that he had written that speech long before and had been waiting impatiently for the moment to read it.
Mike
October 26th, 2012 at 9:36 pm
"Why would you believe that Muslims only want to live in peace when they have a 1,400 year history of conquest and bloodshed"
Heh, EVERYONE people has an unending history of bloodshed. Take a look at the West. Guess that means we're supposed to destroy it too? Remember, the US was NEVER attacked until its government got involved after WWII.
milly
October 26th, 2012 at 9:39 pm
THERE IS NO STATE OF PALISTINE! It has been gone for a very long time.The State recognized is Israel.
I hate more than anything, that the Congress of the US, its individuals, love every other country on the earth and hold them all before me .Whether it is Israel, Palestine or anywhere else. I consider them all traitors, and not worthy of holding office. But for you Justin…
I always felt bad for the Palestinians. I dated a Jewish man once, and told him that I felt bad for the Palestinians. He gave me a book. can't remember the name, about how they the jews went to the land to create something , it was a good book. I told him so when I handed it back to him, and I also told him I still feel bad for the Palestinians.
I hate the fact that people in Congress love other countries more than they do America I hate the fact that our intelligence community is more engaged elsewhere and against us. You worry about Israeli Nationalism when we have none. There is a reason certain groups were put into you country. This is Globalism and this is what it looks like.
Mike
October 26th, 2012 at 9:41 pm
Who cares? Just stay in the west and tell the western governments to stop being little Napoleons.
Sam
October 26th, 2012 at 10:15 pm
We ( as unperfect human beings) make mistakes all the time. But we should be able to correct them and wish all well.
tim
October 26th, 2012 at 10:27 pm
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Nothing about Israel, Palestine or anywhere else.
Everyone else can stick it.
tim
October 26th, 2012 at 10:54 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFwSzZQ4MVI&fe…
:)
tim
October 26th, 2012 at 11:11 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUjr8EVgBg :)
tim
October 26th, 2012 at 11:29 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5mmFPyDK_8&fe… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecIVIFLo0uE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jf3MQpffBc&fe…
with a good night
tim
October 26th, 2012 at 11:46 pm
oops missed the last one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I
:)
mickperry
October 27th, 2012 at 12:24 am
Most certainly not, and I look forward to Justin Raimondo's 'The United States of America. The End of a Dream.'
Israel: The End of the Dream | My Catbird Seat
October 27th, 2012 at 4:14 am
[...] Antiwar.com [...]
Articles for the Weekend » Scott Lazarowitz's Blog
October 27th, 2012 at 4:19 am
[...] Justin Raimondo: Israel, The End of the Dream: Fron “Exodus” to the Apartheid State [...]
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 6:13 am
The "New Covenant" between man and God does not call for war against anyone. It does not call for anything other than peaceful proselytizing, love of all other people, forgiveness and kindness. Not so the Qur'an, which requires "Jihad in the way of Allah" until the only "god" allowed to be worshiped is Allah.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 6:16 am
It seems everyone who wants to compare the Qur'an to the Bible only want to quote the Old Testament of the Bible while they completely ignore the New Covenant.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 6:24 am
The stupidity of the Qur'an is more than my mind can stand because once you have read true prophecies, which can be verified because they came to pass in recorded history, and once you have read the actual words spoken by the Lord Himself, and then you read the nonsensical ramblings of barbaric men trying to sound as if their tales of fantasy were inspired by God, it is extremely easy to know the difference.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 6:29 am
Truth hurts when it conflicts with what you want to believe, doesn't it Mike!!
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 6:30 am
Well said Rich.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 6:34 am
Why don't you try reading the New Testament wbilct? I'm sure you will find that far more enlightening.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 6:39 am
You are wrong Jaime! Qualifying people by the books they read, especially their sacred books, is a VERY WISE THING TO DO because those who believe their sacred book was given by god will want to do whatever their god commands them to do. When Muhammad says kill the Jews, wherever you find them, those who believe Muhammad was inspired by god will do what he commanded.
richard vajs
October 27th, 2012 at 6:54 am
If I were you, I wouldn't try standing on a busy corner in occupied Jerusalem, stopping people to tell them about Jesus – you may get a nasty surprise. You'd be safer in Riyadh
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 7:24 am
You are wrong again Jaime. "Qualifying a people by the book(s) they read even if it their sacred book is" A VERY WISE THING to do. Since a peoples "sacred" books, which they hold to be the actual commandments of god, compel the people to live by its precepts and the spirit in which it is written.
Israel: The End of the Dream- « Middle East atemporal
October 27th, 2012 at 7:25 am
[...] Antiwar.com [...]
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 7:39 am
Why can't the "Palestinians" just accept the Israeli people back into their original homeland and live in peace with them? After all, they all claim to be descendants of Abraham and are therefore kin. There would be no need for "massive ethnic cleansing" if the Arabs would stop attacking Israel and threatening to wipe them off the face of the earth and just allow the Jews to live in peace. The Mexican "Reconquista" is in full swing here in the southern United States. We have been flooded with more than 12 million illegals who are determined to once again control the south, yet the American people are not waging war against them. They come here and get drivers licenses, social security cards, welfare and our jobs, but we continue to live in peace with them.
Mike
October 27th, 2012 at 9:00 am
Truth is a lie and a lie as a truth with you eh? Idiot.
Mike
October 27th, 2012 at 9:01 am
Were you born stupid or did you have to work at it?
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 9:02 am
ATM said "Israel has made it very clear that the intend on suicide bombing the rest of the world with nuclear war heads if we stop supporting their apartide regime."
Please supply sources for your accusation. I have never read, seen or heard of anything even close to Israel threatening the entire world with a nuclear holocaust if we stop supporting them.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 9:04 am
Total BS.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 9:07 am
Please provide some sources to back up your accusations that "They intend mass deportations, effected by mass murders and open terrorism. They intend the ugliest sort of ethnic cleansing. They write about it often."
If they write about it often it should be easy enough to provide sources.
abul
October 27th, 2012 at 9:17 am
I think Arabs somehow managed to read the ulterior motives of Zionist or simply they were being prudent when they declined Partition of Palestine or further immigration of Jews from Europe .
Here is the quote from QUICKSAND by Geoffrey Wawro The Penguin Press NewYork 2010
"The Zionist relished this French disapproval of Arab aims.In a meeting with Soviet ambassador in London in 1941 ,Weizmann hinted that he would drive a million Arabs into Iraq,Syria and Transjordan after the war and settle four million European Jews in their place
The Arab's laziness and primitivism turn a flourishing garden into a desert" Weizman growled Jewish settlers will make the desert bloom"
Ref-Morris Benny Righteous Victims p 42 and Birth page- 45-8
Quicksand -p-45
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 9:31 am
Before the "white man" came the Indian tribes warred among themselves. There was not so much simplicity or peace and harmony for the "Human Beings". I suppose your central point is that only the native Americans are human, and everyone else are demons. whatever.
'Exodus' propaganda even converted Justin Raimondo (but now the dream is dead)
October 27th, 2012 at 9:35 am
[...] is Justin Raimondo confessing his love for the music of Exodus and the story that film (1960) told of exiles finding a home, the [...]
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 9:50 am
Should I post links showing Muslims and Palestinians celebrating the murder of Jewish women and children? To fatwas proclaimed by Imams calling for the murder of every Jew, man, woman and child? Shall I post links to pictures of innocent Jewish families decimated by rocket attacks?
Why are you so one sided? War is hell with atrocities committed on every side.
NoToIgnorance
October 27th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
It's unfortunate to see that Raimondo is still ignorant about Israel's early years– "The Israel of today is not the Israel of "Exodus"???! Exodus was and is a propaganda movie. Israel has been an apartheid, violent, ultranationalist state from the beginning. A little bit of reading will make that clear.
Jane
October 27th, 2012 at 3:12 pm
I would have thought a know-it-all like you would have heard of the Samson Option.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
Enlighten yourself. Full of examples of Israel's threats to wipe us all off the map if the sh*ty little country is threatened!
Jane
October 27th, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Hey "Tony" – How much do they pay you trolls to sit on your tush all day combing these sites and posting your lies, propaganda and feigned ignorance? Don't you ever grow weary of such a disgusting and shameful occupation?
URI AVNERY : “Israel will not attack Iran” | My Catbird Seat
October 27th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
[...] note: What are you saying sir? Israel is an apartheid state. The Palestinians are just as afraid as you are, remember these [...]
Marcelo
October 27th, 2012 at 6:21 pm
Yes the statement "the bullied have become the bullies" is too much of simplification.
Jane
October 27th, 2012 at 6:34 pm
The same could be said regarding the Talmud second to the Torah, on which the laws of Judaism are based. There are some pretty enlightening passages with regard to goyim or non-jews in that sacred tome. But to point this out these days will get you branded as – yes, you guessed it – an anti-semite! The ADL has even come out in force to perform their usual whitewash crying -" Anti-semitism!","Taken out of context!", "Written in another age!" – the usual screed. The Qur'an and the Bible were written in another age as well. While I haven't read it cover to cover, as I found it extremely tedious, I have read many passages from the Talmud Bavli Soncino Translation – the version approved by most Talmudic Scholars. The overall impression is that of a very racist doctrine which couldn't possibly be taken out of context and rather barbaric as well. Like another poster Jaime stated, we shouldn't be so quick to condemn another race by their sacred religious tomes as we can find barbarity in almost all religious doctrine – Jewish, Muslim and Christian alike.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 6:47 pm
Seems that remark applies to you considering that you have your head up your ass when it comes to the truth about Islam and Israel.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 7:26 pm
Jane, from YOUR source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
"The Samson Option is Israel's [ALLEGED] deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a "last resort" against nations whose military attacks threaten its existence, and possibly against other targets as well. The phrase also has been used more generally to describe Israel's nuclear program."
Stunningly, that sounds exactly like MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), the doctrine of both America and the Soviet Union. Israel has as much right to exist as any other people with a national identity. And, from a Biblical perspective, their return as a nation is the fulfillment of prophecy from God. Your hatred of Israel is also hatred of God and His will. Your hatred of Israel and of God is what will bring about the war in the valley of Meggido, yours and the Arabs, the Muslims. It is so sad that you would side with Lucifer, the "god" of Islam, against Jehova, the God of Israel.
Tony
October 27th, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Instead of spewing hatred Jane, why don't you provide something useful to the discussion. And please, if you try to provide some evidence to support your views, do a better job than you did the last time you tried to insult me. Your own source proved your viewpoint to be wrong. The policies of the Israelis is exactly what is necessary for their survival in a world where they are surrounded by madmen insane with hatred.
URI AVNERY : “Israel will not attack Iran” UPDATED « IRAN, a New Pearl Harbour
October 27th, 2012 at 9:14 pm
[...] are you saying sir? Israel is an apartheid state. The Palestinians are just as afraid as you are,remember these [...]
Jaime
October 28th, 2012 at 7:49 am
Compel? The way the Bible compels Christians? I am a Catholic and belong to a family whose Catholic roots go generations. So what? Do you know that there are so many differences in which I see God's "word" vis-a-vis that of other Christians? Some are more militanta than others -even within the Catholic Church itself. The same happens with Muslims. Shiites and Sunnis is just one split. Within each one, there are more liberal and more conservative wings.
ML3
October 28th, 2012 at 9:48 am
Wow I'm glad I missed the Israeli propaganda love-fest of the 1960's and 70's of which you speak, Justin.
As for the paid defenders of Zionism // Racism on this comment thread – you are WORSE than the Nazi apologists because there is a historical precedent you ignore in your defense of Hebrew Supremacism.
So why don't you all dogpile into your little clown car with the star of david painted on the side, and run along to your pro-Israel, pro-hate, anti-muslim and anti-christian websites you love so much.
And the simple minded American Christers who are too dumb to know that AIPAC and their Holy Handlers in Tel Aviv are just using them, they deserve nothing less than a front row seat for the State of Jewish People's next invasion of Gaza or the West Bank, or Lebanon.
richard vajs
October 28th, 2012 at 11:00 am
Israel will not last for several reasons:
1. they are strangers to Mid East, they have no desire to share with the values native to the Mid East – they are like birds who think that they make a home in the river just by driving out the fish
2. they have no connection, spiritual or otherwise to the ancient Hebrews – they are a secular even aetheist group; Israel tolerates white slavery, land theft, usury, etc.
3. they are following a path blazed by the Union of South Africa, Southern Rhodesia, etc. – apartheid and racism appeal to very few – and then only to stupid, brutish people.
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 11:48 am
"…and once you have read the actual words spoken by the Lord Himself"
Interesting! You can prove that "the Lord Himself" spoke those words you refer to? How so? As for "prophesies," Nostradamus has a better record than the Bible and Koran put together. Should I worship him, or start a religion around his "prophesies?" At first, I thought you were a sensible secularist put off by the worst parts of the Koran, but you prove yourself here to be nothing but a religious crank positing one set of primitive divine nonsense as the cure for another. Leave the world alone, please. Your kind (of which the Salafists are a part) have wreaked enough havoc and ruin for several millenia.
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 11:53 am
So how did Christians for most of their recorded existence manage to miss that one, and go about conquering and converting "heathens," while also robbing them of their wealth? Or are you saying that the main difference between Christians and Muslims is the extent of their hypocrisy?
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 11:56 am
Seems to me Christians ignore the "New Covenant" whenever they find it convenient to do so, and then promote it as an argument for their own superiority. Since most Muslims are not active jihadis, and are unlikely to become such, can't you at least magnanimously grant them the same capacity for hypocrisy and cowardice as Christians display? Or are they robots, doomed to follow their programming?
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 11:59 am
In other words, religion is like the programming of a robot or computer, which the machine/human is condemned to carry out to the letter. Do you really believe this?
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 12:04 pm
I don't know about "musings," but you clearly demonstrate that it is a genetic gift on your part.
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 12:08 pm
You would be wrong. AIPAC does not get it's money from the US taxpayers. AIPAC gets it's money primarily from ONE wealthy Zionist, and several minor fools. AIPAC then influences Congress to give taxpayer $ to Israel. Taxpayers do not pay lobbyists, but they do pay the clients of those lobbyists. Get it straight.
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
Why would an attack on an American spy ship change your view of Israel being part of "western civilization?" That makes no logical sense.
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 12:16 pm
Quit gibbering about your lousy Sky Spirit and the voices he instilled in the heads of the "prophets" about what It's "will" is. The Salafists say the same sh*t, but with an opposite final conclusion. Is this, in the end, all you Abrahamist (Jews, Christians, Muslims) have to offer the world?
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 12:22 pm
No, the "nuclear game" Israel plays is to keep from being overrun by hostile neighboring states' armies. That's the reality. Unlike you, they know that they can lose a conventional conflict, because of the numbers. The US doesn't fund them because they think Israel will nuke them (or the Arabs, who the "west" could care less about).
Israel has a lot to answer for, but stop fantasizing.
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 12:26 pm
And which set of atrocities do you approve of?
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
So you're saying that the Jews of that time should have chosen the moral philosopher Jesus over the Rome hating freedom fighter/terrorist Barabbas? Why should they have done that, under conditions of roman oppression, and wouldn't Pilate have known who they would choose?
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
The truth about Islam and Israel is that they both suck.
A. G. Phillbin
October 28th, 2012 at 1:28 pm
Name a "legitimate country." what is the criteria for said "legitimacy?"
Jane
October 28th, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Tony, that was a very ungodlike response. You must be getting rattled to let your Christian mask slip like that! For shame!
PEACE EVER AFTER
October 28th, 2012 at 6:57 pm
Of course one could argue that South Africa , Nazi Germany and Stalinist USSR were part of "western civilization".
REAL NEWS Oct.29 2012 « DaniMartExtras, Too
October 28th, 2012 at 10:04 pm
[...] Antiwar.com [...]
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 9:42 am
The sooner the better
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 9:44 am
Thery keep messing with them and it's gonna happen
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 9:48 am
Samen thing the christians did to get to the top of the food chain. Then once they slaughtered their way to the top, they wrote a book telling us how violence is wrong
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 9:52 am
How old was marry when she got knocked up?
14
Seems child rape is loved in both religions
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 9:53 am
can you show those words were spoken by " the Lord Himself"?
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 9:55 am
How christian of you.
Did jesus teach you to act like that?
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 9:57 am
That's funny. We have the OT saying kill, kill, kill, then the NT saying be nice.
“Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 9:58 am
Ah yes. Selective Morality
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 9:58 am
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20
Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15
The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21
Ricky Michael
October 29th, 2012 at 10:31 am
May you live to see with your own eyes all the Revelation that you quote and know so very well. My question to you, which side will you fight on when it comes? You already know who wins.
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 10:36 am
But the fact is it won't come. It is all just hocus pocus crap so people can justify killing each other.
Déjà Vu: Fascism on the Rise « Attack the System
October 29th, 2012 at 10:55 am
[...] And this rabid ethno-nationalism is growing in some pretty fertile fields: as I pointed out in Friday’s column, a recent poll showed a majority of Israelis endorsing an apartheid state as a “good” and/or [...]
Ricky Michael
October 29th, 2012 at 10:57 am
If it does, which side will you choose? The one that wins or the one that is going to lose?
Ricky Michael
October 29th, 2012 at 11:00 am
You may indeed come from a Catholic upbringing but your rhetoric says that you left it long ago. I did too, but I left in the other direction.
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 11:09 am
I would pick the winning side. Don't know what side that will be though
Ricky Michael
October 29th, 2012 at 11:14 am
Humm, don't know the verses as well as you think then. Maybe you should re-read them and figure out which side that is.
You would be welcome on my side, but you would need to stop picking on us first.
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 11:19 am
But the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster says his side will win. You are also more than welcome to join…………………only if you like meatballs though
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 11:20 am
But you ignore the OT.
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
Ricky Michael
October 29th, 2012 at 11:21 am
Hahaha, I see your Swhartz is as big as mine. (Spaceballs)
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 11:26 am
I bet she gives great helmet
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 12:08 pm
Isreal has made it clear. They want war.
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2012/09…
WTE
October 29th, 2012 at 12:17 pm
I still can't believe we have people who support these child killers. Brainwashed fools is all they are. They condone violence done on the other side but they love it when israel kills others .
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 3:19 pm
WTE… I'm not sure of your reason for linking to that particular website. The topic of discussion was Israel intending mass murders, open terrorism and ethnic cleansing. The article you site tries to blame Israel as being the only state in the Middle East with the ability to start WWIII and then goes on to prove that thesis incorrect.
Quote: "Only one however has the potential to start regional war that could conceivably morph into a world wide conflagration. The pugnacious and nuclear bomb wielding nation of Israel."
And then, a couple of paragraphs later the author writes: "In other words Israel is panicking; not for what may happen the next few years, but for what may very well happen in the forseable future, particularly upon the fall of the Asaad regime. Essentially the staging of a sustained offense from multiple fronts into the Israeli territories, destroying the economy and dislodging, weakening, or erradicating the Israeli regime."
My question then becomes Why would Israel be blamed for starting the wars that could morph into WWIII when they would necessarily HAVE TO defend themselves from the attacks on multiple fronts which could end up destroying Israel. Wouldn't you blame that on the attackers who wish to destroy Israel? It seems illogical to expect Israel to sit by and watch itself be destroyed for fear of being blamed for causing WWIII. The blame would obviously need to be placed upon those who are attacking Israel. WWIII is EXACTLY what Iran wants. They believe the 12th Imam will not return until there is worldwide chaos and they intend to cause that to happen. So the blame for this will rest squarely on Iran who is sponsoring terrorism and wars throughout the Middle East to bring about the destruction of Israel.
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
A.G. Pillbin… God has proven that He IS God through prophecy. The Bible is filled with prophecies that came to pass EXACTLY as it was foretold. Just because your unlearned mind cannot comprehend this fact doesn't make it irrelevant. And the Salafists have an opposite final conclusion because their "god" is the opposite of the Christian and Jewish God.
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
No, Israel has made it clear that they do not want nuclear weapons in the hands of insane madmen that have sworn they will destroy Israel and kill every last Jew. Every sane country in the world agrees with Israel that if it becomes necessary the military option should be used to keep that from happening.
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 3:41 pm
A.G. Pillbin… like I said before, Israels policy of nuclear deterrence is the very same policy employed by the USA, Russia and China. Just because you would love to see Israel destroyed doesn't mean that M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction) is mad.
You wrote: "(or the Arabs, who the "west" could care less about)". If the "West" COULD care less, that at least means the West does care about the Arabs. The remaining question is how much?
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
WTE… you obviously know nothing about the history of Christianity. Christians have never "slaughtered their way to the top…"
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
A.G. Pillbin wrote… "Interesting! You can prove that "the Lord Himself" spoke those words you refer to?"
Why don't you take a seminary apologetics course and learn why Christians believe what we believe? In spite of what you think, Christians DO NOT believe in fairy tales. The proofs of God laid out in the Bible by God Himself is undeniable, once you have sufficient knowledge to understand it. Six thousand years of recorded history and every book in the Bible speaks of either the coming messiah, or the messiah that came and fulfilled every Biblical prophecy about His coming. Your denial of God is a fantasy
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
Yes, I can.
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
Really?!? And where did you learn that little tidbit of nonsense?
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Please point out to me the "barbaric" religious doctrines of Christianity. As a Baptist and then a Pentecostal, I haven't encountered any. Please enlighten me.
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 4:09 pm
Yes! He did. When He said "Do not cast your pearls before swine"…
and again when He said "And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 4:11 pm
Jane, I don't wear a "Christian mask", I say what I think. Whether I had said "your head in the sand" or "your head up your ass" the meaning is the same and neither of the statements is literal.
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 4:15 pm
You obviously have Christianity confused with Islam. Only Islam has been spread by "conquering the heathens".
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 4:24 pm
WTE said… " I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with?" This is a misconception of those who do not know God. You can clearly "see" Jesus from the words He spoke while on this earth and through His actions that He took while here. And you can most definitely "interact" with him through prayer and by "listening" to the "still small voice" inside every living being which most call your "conscience". The Bible says "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Know scripture and your "conscience" will guide you according to it. Every Christian understands this, and every non-Christian does not.
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 4:32 pm
"Condemned" to carry out?!? When the precepts of Christianity are followed to the letter it leads to peace, love, joy and kindness. Is that such a bad thing to be condemned to? No, it is something to strive for.
However, the opposite is true of Islam, which teaches there can be no peace as long as there are any infidels who do not bow to Allah.
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 4:34 pm
Continue on please! What are the laws of the Old Testament that Jesus was speaking of?
Tony
October 29th, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Thank you Ricky!! Very well said.
Fascism on the Rise « The Underground Librarian
October 29th, 2012 at 6:36 pm
[...] And this rabid ethno-nationalism is growing in some pretty fertile fields: as I pointed out in Friday’s column, a recent poll showed a majority of Israelis endorsing an apartheid state as a “good” and/or [...]
Jaime
October 29th, 2012 at 6:55 pm
Isn't enough the vengeful, irate nature of the Old Testament's God. On top of that, after almost annihilating the human race in the Flood (Not that we didn't deserve it), he feels "sorry" and promises not to do it again. Or again, as I said before, the murderous "sacred" orders received by Joshua and his thugs to wipe out every living thing in the opposite camp. How charitable. You make me remember the fools who forced Galileo to state that the earth was the center of the universe. I am sure God exists but it isn't the bloody-minded that rules over Christians, Jews, Muslims and others. In any case, if we'll measure barbarism at all, then Christians have been more barbaric because Christianity has produced the most murderous people and nations.
A. G. Phillbin
October 29th, 2012 at 10:39 pm
Yeeessss, your Sky Spirit "proves" his existence by a book claimed to be produced under his direct influence. Saying so with fervent passion is your only "proof," or even evidence. Prove that "God" wrote the Bible. Hint: you must do this without referring to any of the contents of the Bible. Otherwise, it's just circular "reasoning," if I can even use that word. Your "seminary apologetics course" is just an intellectual extension of the same form of tail-clutching discourse.
A. G. Phillbin
October 29th, 2012 at 10:39 pm
Then do it. Now.
A. G. Phillbin
October 29th, 2012 at 10:40 pm
You mean Mary wasn't knocked up?
A. G. Phillbin
October 29th, 2012 at 10:42 pm
GARBAGE. Ask any Native American, you historical ignoramus. Or any African. Even the word "heathens" is from Christian discourse.
A. G. Phillbin
October 29th, 2012 at 10:45 pm
So people are machines, driven by religious programming?
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:04 am
Really?
http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/10/how-many-…
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:04 am
Where is the proof then?
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:06 am
We are told that Mary was a virgin at the time of her conception. In those days, once a girl began menstruating she became a woman in Jewish law (as did a boy at his Bar mitzvah around the age of 14) and would be expected to be married off to a young gentleman, not only for financial reasons, but so that the descendent line could be maintained (a very important part of Jewish culture in those days). Therefore, girls as young as 13 or 14 could marry, as, in those days, menstruation began, on average, a little later then than these days because of our modern lifestyle and better health.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:07 am
So you are juding who you think "swine" is?
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:09 am
No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:09 am
All of them
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:10 am
Um, yes they have. They always have.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:28 am
How can you call it BS? Do you live under a rock?
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:30 am
The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.
Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:32 am
The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.
Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod’s alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod’s massacre.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 5:33 am
Funny he did not present his evidence
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 6:34 am
Mary also traces back to David. Your data is faulty.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 6:38 am
Proof?
The bible does not count as proof. As Mr. A.G. said that is circular reasoning
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 6:39 am
Here is the thing, there is hyperbole in the scriptures that are there for emphasis. Christ is ruling, right now, from the right hand of God. He said that his kingdom was not of this world, otherwise his servant would fight.
The Jeremiah quote does refer to both Babylon and Christ at the same time. This type of prophecy occurs quite often in the OT. The OT, points to the coming of the Christ as the supreme underlying theme.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 6:45 am
So the bible is full of hyperbole?
But you can't show christ is ruling anything anymore than RA is ruling anything.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 7:04 am
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
John 18:35-37
The key word is "now'.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 7:08 am
Some hyperbole, but a whole lot more of downright, straight up instruction, teaching, and examples, none of which you listen to what-so-ever.
Your disbelief in truth his so extreme, I don’t expect you will ever open your eyes. A fellow named Paul was a great example of someone just like you. Good thing it’s against the law to stone someone, or I would be in some real trouble from you, huh?
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 7:13 am
Paul is that false apostle that the Lord spoke about in Revelation 2:2
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 7:13 am
So we have inconsistencies
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 7:16 am
Hahaha, don't you wish.
Some one who gets an in person visit is not a flase apostle.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 7:19 am
Nope, he rules in heaven right now and and will one day come and set things straight here too.
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:25-27
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 10:02 am
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC25O5LAKTU
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 10:02 am
How do you know RA is not ruling in "heaven"
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 10:23 am
You sit here and defend christianity even when you know the horrors it has caused. Look at the most famous christian Hitler and what he did. How can you sit here and think things like that are ok?
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 10:25 am
You will wish he was. I expect that the real one will have more than a few things to say to you about your conduct.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 10:34 am
Watching this shows that whoever put it together has a total lack of understanding of the Bible. It is a joke, full of untruth.
Example. The reason there are to slightly differring accounts of Paul's conversion is that is it being told to see different audiences at different times. Both accounts can and are true, each revealing more information about what happened at the time. One was from the perspective of Paul and the other from the perspective of those who were with him.
The truth is, you and the many, many people who put thing kind of stuff together, try so deparately to justify the way you believe that they have to manufacture down right false propaganda. Then distribute it as if it is the truth. It's not. It's fasle teaching at it's best.
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 10:43 am
Mary's alleged ancestral ties to King Davis are on a par with those characters in the Moslem world who claim descent from Muhammed. Where's the physical or extra-scriptural documentary evidence?
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 10:45 am
Of course not. He is like so many scriptural literalists. Proof is by faith alone.
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 10:47 am
But they have such a wonderful, loving doctrine, but only when practiced "consistently." Doesn't that make you feel so much better when they kill people?
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 10:50 am
Well, that works out just fine. Go out and kill according to the OT, and then repent of it in the matter of the NT. In both cases, you were being "Godly."
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 10:52 am
The documentation you are requesting was destroyed during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 by the Romans.
I do not need to provide you with anything other than the Bible. You either accept that or reject. It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other what you choose.
I suspect, by your question asked, you are just another atheist trying to justify your dis-belief, asking for something I don't even have to provide. The Bible is always taken on faith. You either have or you don't. Period.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 11:12 am
Who is the real one? How can you prove who the real one is? That is the issues with the thousands of man made gods how can anyone sit here and and not question their belief system?
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 11:15 am
"The truth is, you and the many, many people who put thing kind of stuff together, try so deparately to justify the way you believe that they have to manufacture down right false propaganda. Then distribute it as if it is the truth. It's not. It's fasle teaching at it's best."
That is how I feel about the bible.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 11:16 am
I know right.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 11:24 am
You and Mr. AG have the right to disagree with me all you like. It will not change my belief in the Bible.
Why should it matter to you what I believe?
I believe and practice with is written there. If that offends you, then so be it. Bible itself foretold that christians like me would be persecuted for their belief. Thank you for proving it true for me.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 11:28 am
I am not persecuting you. You know I respect you. Just looking for a good discussion without the stalker troll
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 11:35 am
I know you very well, it is not a question respecting me. I know you do.
However, sure you are persecuting Christians and anyone/everyone who follows the Bible. You do it daily, Mr. Edwards. You are known by your fruits (deeds). I have read your posts for a year now. I also, have seen you be kind to people, which is what I think you really are deep down once you wash off all the hog woller mud.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 11:37 am
I am always kind to those who are kind to me. I respect those who respect me. I treat others how they treat me. That is the way I have always been. I do like to stir the pot and call people out though.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 11:41 am
The one in the Bible is the real one.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 11:42 am
Yep, this is what I have seen from you. I can't disagree with this statement.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 11:50 am
But how can you be so sure? Other people from different religious backrounds feel as sure about their god as you do yours. Then we have some that feel strongly about their beliefs in their god that they are willing to kill over it
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 12:06 pm
2 Thess 2 : 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 12:11 pm
I bet I can find verses that are the same in other religious texts like Bhagavad Gita, Tao Te Ching, the book of Moromon, the Koran, etc…..
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 12:14 pm
Fire away, I would be interested in reading those.
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
At least you are being honest with the "taken on faith" bit, but the same could easily be said of the Koran, or any other really moldy, old, and therefore "holy" piece of parchment. It also speaks poorly of your intelligence, that you "take on faith" not merely the existence of God, but the bloodline of Mary, or any other person. As for my dis-belief, you are wrong — I fell no need to justify it, any more than i need to "justify" my disbelief in Santa Claus.
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Your "God" sounds like a sociopath, making people believe a lie by sending them "strong delusion." Why would a loving God not try to remove delusions? I thought you believed that God was Love and Truth.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 12:27 pm
I suggest you tell him that when you two meet.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Matthew 12:38-40
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
I seek after no signs; I seek after truth, as in objectively provable facts, not subjectively believable dogma.
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 1:14 pm
I would tell him that the Devil is a less effective deceiver than he is, at least according to your theology.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 1:19 pm
Hahaha, then unless you have a time machine you are destined to be disappointed. I can't prove God to you and you can't disprove him either.
Ricky Michael
October 30th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
Oh, I'm sure that will go over just swell.
I may have to start following you. You are a hoot just Like Mr. Edwards.
WTE
October 30th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
Good one. I will say Mr. Michael's is one of the few christians I have come across that actually follows he bible (NT only) of course.
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
Believing in God is one thing; accepting the bloodline of someone without physical or documentary proof is another. One is a nonphysical being; the other is a physical alleged fact.
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Who is RA? I always thought the Spaghetti Monster ruled heaven.
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 5:04 pm
Well, given that Nostradamus has a better track record of "prophecy" than either the Bible and the Koran combined, should we start a religion based on him? And what has come to pass EXACTLY as it was foretold? Name one thing. To qualify, it must be an EXACT foretelling, not subject to textual interpretation or parsing. I'm listening.
A. G. Phillbin
October 30th, 2012 at 5:06 pm
Correction — COULDN'T care less. Better now?
Jaime
October 30th, 2012 at 6:05 pm
How convenient to handpick eh? What could be the problem with the New Testament? Isn't it as much part of the Bible as the New Testament?
Jaime
October 30th, 2012 at 6:12 pm
Your level of ignorance is incredible or you are just pretending? Why don't you go back and study the history of Christianity which is full of "gallantry". As a Christian I have no problem in recognizing the tremendous mistakes the Church has made overtime, for what could be more christian-like than be honest rather than a rabid lier and a hypocrite? Did yoiu know that Jesus hated hypocrites?
The Fall Guy | My Catbird Seat
October 31st, 2012 at 5:22 am
[...] Israel: The End of the Dream – October 25th, 2012 [...]
WTE
October 31st, 2012 at 5:24 am
The sun god.
http://www.fruitofthenile.com/ra.htm
I think they share heaven
WTE
October 31st, 2012 at 5:25 am
I was hoping he would come back for another round of schooling
Ricky Michael
October 31st, 2012 at 5:33 am
What do you, Mr. AG Phillbin, want from me?
The reason I believe in God? I open my eyes and see his handiwork in all things that have been made.
Is it really a question of "Mary's" lineage? Or, is it that you just don't want anything in the Bible to be true? Because if anything is true, you really might be in some very big trouble.
I will answer your questions, you seem reasonable and civil, just like Mr. Edwards. I work, so my responses may take awhile, but I will get around to them.
Ricky Michael
October 31st, 2012 at 5:38 am
When you ask for proof that is asking for a sign. It is rather a matter of faith, that is the key.
The difference between you and I is that you will accept nothing from the Bible, wheras, I will accept nothing except the Bible.
From my point of view the words written in that book will judge all mankind. That's why I have studied so very many years and do my very best to follow the teaching of the New Testament.
Ricky Michael
October 31st, 2012 at 5:41 am
Maybe the two of them could open an Italian Restaurant.
WTE
October 31st, 2012 at 6:29 am
Burnt spaghetti
A. G. Phillbin
October 31st, 2012 at 5:12 pm
WRONG. Asking for proof is not asking for a "sign," it is asking for evidence for extraordinary claims made by only one source, the NT of the Bible. You are therefore wrong in thinking that I will accept "nothing" from the Bible. I simply choose to use my mental faculties to judge what I find acceptable and what i do not, from ANY book, not just the Bible. Since you have now confessed to having a closed mind ("I will accept nothing except the Bible"), let's end the conversation on that note. You believe knowledge xan be a product of pure faith; I do not.
A. G. Phillbin
October 31st, 2012 at 5:14 pm
I wonder: have you ever considered that God might not like your theology? Are you sure you're going through the Pearly Gates?
Ricky Michael
November 1st, 2012 at 4:54 am
Ok, I’m wrong. No need to raise your tone, since I’m so very “wrong.” I disagree; asking for proof is the same thing as asking for a sign. It is simply semantics; it means I will put God to the test.
Why are we here?
Ricky Michael
November 1st, 2012 at 5:07 am
Have you ever truly read the New Testament? It doesn't seem like it,
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William
November 4th, 2012 at 7:04 pm
Dear "Patriot" take your anti-Jewish garbage somewhere else. So hi to your Uncle Adolph for me.
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