Shut Up, Rachel
There’s no evidence Pakistan shielded Osama bin Laden
My first reaction to the killing of Osama bin Laden was to imagine this meant closure for the American people – that we could put 9/11 behind us, and move on. Talk about naïve!
Instead, the country is engaging in an orgy of self-congratulatory hysteria, reliving the darkest moments of 9/11, and blaming Pakistan for supposedly hiding bin Laden in a million-dollar “mansion.” The award for the tackiest response has got to go to President Obama’s partisans celebrating the event as symbolic of the Democrats’ new “national security” credentials, with a close second going to former Alaska governor Sarah Palin, who weirdly congratulated George W. Bush – a case of ideologically-induced dyslexia if ever there was one.
Yes, I innocently assumed bin Laden’s demise would be a “mission accomplished” moment, not in the Bushian sense but in reality: boy, was I wrong. We are now confronted with a chorus of voices – and not just from the Usual Suspects – demanding that we punish Pakistan for supposedly shielding bin Laden from America’s wrath.
Yet there is not one scintilla of evidence that the Pakistani government, or anyone close to them, had the faintest idea the terrorist leader was hiding “in plain sight.” It was an ingenious deception: the whole time our intelligence “experts” were smugly assuming they knew bin Laden was in Waziristan, Pakistan’s “tribal” region – with the concurrence of the President, by the way – he was sitting at home in an affluent suburb of Islamabad, the Pakistani capital – the seat of a government to which we have given multi- billions over the past 10 years. Are we, then, complicit too?
The answer is an emphatic no.
Because bin Laden was found in Pakistan does not mean the Pakistanis were hiding him. After all, the 9/11 hijackers were living in America – some of them legally – when they struck: does that mean the US was “hiding” them? Of course not. It simply means they escaped detection – and, given the information we have to date, that’s all it means. Period.
This won’t satisfy some people, particularly those Obama-ites who are joyful at the political impetus this has given their Glorious Leader: I was shocked to see MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow screeching about the role of Perfidious Pakistan on her Monday night newscast. According to her, since a large number of al-Qaeda bigwigs, including bin Laden, were found in Pakistan, this means, ipso facto, that the Pakistani government is responsible for aiding and abetting terrorism against the United States. I have to say that this kind of world-class conclusion-jumping is possible to Ms. Maddow only because, as a big government liberal, she apparently believes that governments know all and see all within the confines of their territory. Government, as an instrument, is omni-competent. OBL was in Pakistan: ergo, he was there at Islamabad’s invitation.
Maddow is delusional. Ranting about how many top al-Qaeda leaders have been captured in Pakistan, she listed
Ramzi Binalshibh – one of the original Hamburg cell that plotted and carried out the 9/11 attacks, he was arrested in a joint Pakistani-CIA operation in 2002. Pakistan handed him over to the US, and he was incarcerated at Guantanamo.
Abu Zubaydah – arrested in another joint US-Pakistani raid. According to Wikipedia:
“It is unclear how the Government found Abu Zubaydah. U.S. officials claimed he was tracked down after making a phone call to al-Qaeda leaders in Yemen. However, this has been questioned by a CIA official who stated that the U.S. paid $10 million to the Pakistani government, who had in turn bribed the information on his whereabouts from a local driver in Faisalabad. Pakistani intelligence discovered that he was traveling in disguise as a burka-clad woman.”
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed – the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, was arrested in 2003 in what was described at the time as a joint US-Pakistani operation, although Wikipedia gives major credit to the latter:
“Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was captured in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, on March 1, 2003, by the Pakistani ISI, possibly in a joint action with agents of the American Diplomatic Security Service.”
Maddow thinks she can apply a well-known principle of real estate sales – location, location, location! – to intelligence work. Was a sillier idea ever conceived? Babbling about how the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in Lahore proved how perfidious the Pakistanis were and are, she barked in her sternest butch baritone: “It has been Pakistan from the beginning. How long is it going to continue to be Pakistan?”
We should all fear the answer to that question just as long as “journalists” like Maddow fail to do even a minimal amount of research, and are energized not by a desire to get at the truth but by partisan concerns – in this case carrying water for the Dear and Glorious Leader. Obama not only threatened to invade Pakistan during the last presidential campaign but also followed through on his promise. When he goes all the way and puts “boots on the ground” Maddow’s propaganda will be instrumental in getting the Democratic base to go along for the ride.
Hillary Clinton accused the Pakistanis of sheltering bin Laden long before this, and Maddow seems determined to prove her right. Sure, there’s no evidence, but since when do partisan hacks require evidence? In the heat of nationalistic fervor being whipped up by the media, Maddow’s “progressive” warmongering and baseless accusations blend right in with the whole sickening atmosphere of bravado and blame. It’s great when a “progressive” can claim to be as “patriotic” as the next guy: Maddow’s show that night featured shots of juveniles (mostly white) screaming “USA! USA!” in front of the White House, and Rachel herself was there, too, as she proudly told us, recording the occasion for posterity.
The most ridiculous part of her rant, however, was when she started talking about the history of US-Pakistan relations, and the connection of both governments to al-Qaeda. Sure, she said, we aided bin Laden in the 1980s, sending him weapons in order to fight the Soviets – but who, she asked, was the “middle man”? We didn’t deal directly with al-Qaeda, but through a third party [.pdf]. And who was that party? It was – aha! – Pakistan!
So there! That “proves” it! The Pakistanis are evil, treacherous snakes-in-the-grass because … they followed our instructions to the letter.
Is it something in the water? Is there a secret al-Qaeda plot to lower the intelligence of the American people, and is Rachel Maddow but the latest victim?
Please, Rachel: you’re not well. Drink only bottled water – unless they’ve dosed that, too – and take a very long vacation. You need a rest – and so, frankly, do we. In short: STFU, Rachel, before you make a complete fool out of yourself.
Read more by Justin Raimondo
- Antiwar.com vs. the FBI – May 21st, 2013
- Two Cheers for ‘Isolationism’ – May 19th, 2013
- Our Civil Liberties, RIP – May 16th, 2013
- Raping the World – May 14th, 2013
- The Price of Peace – May 12th, 2013





!WARNOW! ThinkLater.
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:27 pm
The 60's activists that used to kidnap, protest the Vietnam war, blow up cop cars, occupy deans' offices, vandalize, interrupt free speech and wreck things have grown up and now control the world's greatest military force. What does one expect them to do with it? Go to war with an Asian country?
skulz fontaine
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:33 pm
MSNBC had Keith Olbermann. Olbermann hit the bricks and rightly so. So what does MSNBC do? Tah-dah, Rachel Madcow. Whirling and twirling and spitting histrionics hither and yon.
"STFU, Rachel, before you make a complete fool out of yourself." Too late.
Mercy and turns out, "progressives" are as warmongering and war criminal as Bushco. Not a dime's bit of difference. Nope.
I mean, did Marshall Obama REALLY cack Usama bin Ladin? Ain't no dang 'proof positive' come to light yet. Which would be ever so problematic. Seems bin Ladin gots buried at sea. Wow and go figure.
Talha
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:35 pm
Pakistan is like many other nation-states. There are levels of bureaucracies and governments within governments – especially when you deal with intelligence oranizations with blacked-out bugdets. There may well have been a level or faction of the intelligence agencies (or even retired members from the same) that knew of his whereabouts and kept it secret. To assume this knowledge percolated through the entire government structure is sheer madness. So when someone says the Pakistanis knew – they have to make clear which level of the government are talking about. The truth requires precision in a case as careful as this is – I think only the certifiably insane would want a full-on war with Pakistan.
Sans flag pins
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:46 pm
Bin Laden's demise should be the time to come home, and take care of America's business. We all know the Statists, don't want this. Their plans only equals less freedom for Americans, and expanding a financial wreck at home. Lets not believe their unconvincing lies.
TonyDiGerolamo
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:48 pm
Although, I'm in total agreement about the current sickening displays, I'm a little surprised you cited Wikipedia as a source.
mickperry
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:52 pm
Get over it and get on board Justin; Pakistan is probably about to be dismembered, and its nukes disarmed. This might be at the cost of much bloodshed, but so long as none of it is Israeli blood, then who cares? I reckon Donald Trump should at least demand to see the death certificate first though, before all of this kicks off.
Brad
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:19 pm
You know, one reason I refuse to listen or watch the main stream media is the way they take every important thing, eliminate the rational, ramp up the emotional and dumb it down to the point where each issue is a matter of "you are either with us or with the terrorists". I have enjoyed this antiwar site because it has had a lot of substance in it and, until now, has not felt the need to stoop so low. I cannot say the same for this article. I have no particular love for Rachel Maddow yet demonising her into some sort of monster that needs to "STFU" is something I would expect if I were watching Fox or another equally moronic program. From Fox I expect no better, I suppose I am disappointed that I had expected more here. Sorry, my mistake.
tom
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:33 pm
Name one. Gates, the GOP Sec. of Defense? Obama, who was born in 1961? Perhaps one of the generals or admirals? Very few in the Obama White House are even in the age group for Christ's sake.
Just who are you talking about? Perhaps you should think now, instead of later.
David4Peace
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:36 pm
Hey Brad, that's just Justin. He's always like that. The rest of antiwar is still excellent.
tom
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:41 pm
We seem to forget that when we were aiding the resistance against the Russians in Afghanistan it was the Pakistanis that we used to channel our weapons to that resistance. To believe that there were not folks in the intelligence services who were loyal to Obama is absurd.
Pakistan is a very closed society. The local police keep close tabs on their areas of control. To believe that there was not some level of cooperation, or bribes to look the other way, seems far fetched.
Brad
May 3rd, 2011 at 11:04 pm
LOL! Ok, ok, you made me laugh. Thanks for that. Guess I'll keep reading. :)
Bodkin
May 3rd, 2011 at 11:10 pm
“Is there a secret al-Qaeda plot to lower the intelligence of the American people?” asks Raimondo.
“No”, answers Bodkin, “Raimondo’s the one trying to lower everyone’s intelligence.”
This might be Raimondo’s most disingenuous attempt to manipulate his readers to date. Raimondo’s goal, as always, is to discourage interventionism, which is fine. But what does he do? He pretends that evidence is required to prove that somebody in Pakistan knew Osama was hiding in plain sight–in a big conspicuous compound, built especially for him, right next to a military base–FOR SIX YEARS. That’s right, folks. Evidence is clearly the top priority. Following that, he’ll demand evidence that proves the sky is blue.
The REAL evidence we’ve just been given is that Raimondo will happily insult everyone’s intelligence in order to discourage military interventionism. Not his proudest moment.
[moderator's note: Oh, Bodkin, you disappoint me. The question is not whether "someone in Pakistan" knew that bin Laden was there, it is -- or rather they are -- who knew he was there, whether harboring/accommodating/ignoring him was official policy or rogue operation, how long he was where, etc. And each and every forwarded factual claim going to those questions from any source is open to question. If your intelligence has been insulted, maybe it merited the insult - TLK]
mickperry
May 4th, 2011 at 1:10 am
I think you mean Osama here, and yes, he would inevitably have still commanded many loyalties within the military and the ISI. To be unaware of this is simply a case of the collective amnesia which is now widespread. OBL and his predecessors were 'our guys' once, in the proxy war against the Soviets. The British MP Robin Cook writing in the London Guardian just before his untimely death pointed out that the word 'al Qaeda', meaning 'the base' quite literally was the CIA list of Arab Mujahadeen that travelled to Afghanistan in the 1980's to wage their US backed war. The fact that al Qaeda has now metastasised into a world wide franchising operation can be laid quite squarely at the feet of those who engineered the destruction of two Muslim countries, and who are planning the same fate for still more.
JohnDowser
May 4th, 2011 at 1:18 am
A breath of fresh air, Justin's latest. How long for proper and sane reasoning itself will be declared the enemy just because it might disrupt the thriving economy of trite amusement and disconnected imagery?
Tennessean
May 4th, 2011 at 1:30 am
Folks, I haven't a clue that binLaden was actually killed there. Maybe its just another conspiracy being perpetrated on the sheeple, but there's one thing for sure ..the compound was huge, with big walls and barbed wire. It was in a Paki military town. If Justin is making the case that Pakistan may not have known about binLaden, I think he should take into consideration the location/size etc of that compound. If the (innocent) Paki military were all over that town, and they weren't curious about it, they are guilty of maximum stupidity, and I've never heard them called stupid. Perfidous? Yep. Corrupt? Yep. Stupid… nahhh..
They need to pay dearly for this, IMHO.
Tennessean
May 4th, 2011 at 1:43 am
Actually, their professors and teachers were members of the groups you speak of. Alinsky-ites, etc.. And now their students are running the country and are mis-educating the current generation. Things aren't good and they are going to get really bad very quickly
Mike Cormany
May 4th, 2011 at 1:50 am
Pakistan is everybody's favorite punching bag. Clinton insults and insinuates something about their loyalty once a week, Obama threatens to yank their bribe money to forget they're an Islamic country and do what's best for the United States. Nobody gives a thought to what Pakistan must think about constantly which is what happens when the USA leaves and Pakistan sits with India on one side of her, a Taliban led Afghanistan on the other, and a population that grows more anti-west every day. They'd be insane to put all their eggs in one basket, especially the basket of a country that is famous for turning on it's one-time friends and putting them in prison or hanging them after invading their countries. I can only imagine the response here if Iran sent a gang of commando's without a word to DC to drag Cheney back to stand trial and shot him and then dumped him at sea. That Pakistan is made to ignore that insult and have to defend itself against charges of habitually pallin' with the head terrorist really is absurd.
Anyway, here I thought it had always been Saudi Arabia. My bad, Rachel.
Strider55
May 4th, 2011 at 1:58 am
Watching all the jingoistic celebrations Monday brought me back to an eerily similar moment in 1982. Argentina's brutal, corrupt military junta, in a last desperate attempt to hold on to power, invaded and occupied the Falklands. Instantly the Argentine sheeple, who just 24 hours earlier had been banging on pots and pans while loudly demanding the junta's ouster, were cheering, waving flags and shouting "Ar-gen-tina! Ar-gen-tina!"
We'll soon see how long the American sheeple, following the Argentine example, forget the ongoing economic collapse, $4 gas, TSA sexual molestations, ATF gunrunning to Mexico, etc. in order to pay homage to the Supreme Potentate and his all-powerful armies.
mickperry
May 4th, 2011 at 1:58 am
I think he must be referring to people like this war veteran, who turned around and protested the war, in conversation with a suspected military deserter who then went on to wage war: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRY_BOYeySc&fe…
Oswaldwasalefty
May 4th, 2011 at 2:00 am
"My first reaction to the killing of Osama bin Laden was to imagine this meant closure for the American people – that we could put 9/11 behind us, and move on. Talk about naïve!"
Right. What were you thinking? You know that the "War On Terror" is just old imperialist wine being repackaged in new bottles labeled "The War On Terror". The beauty of this enemy for the imperialists is that its a tactic, unlike states like the former Soviet Union, and China prior to the mid-70's. As long as their is imperial invasion and occupation there will be resistance movements, which all use terror when they engage in armed resistance.
The thing about Maddow and most Americans is that they can't fathom that their government is an imperial gangster state deeply resented throughout the former colonial world. And it has earned every bit of this resentment for its relentless campaigns to restore former European empires throughout Asia since the end of World War II. There aren't any fly by wire drones assaulting gay wedding celebrations in Boston and Frisco, so most people in this country, liberal homos like Maddow and company included, don't give a damn when it happens in Afghanistan. Now gays and lesbians can openly operate a fly by wire drone, so who cares about those defenseless non-white people they are killing?
Anyway, Obama has given vulgar American nationalism its pound of flesh. Only fitting that it involved bravely gunning down an unarmed suspect. I'm expecting this to be trumpeted loudly in the next election campaign, much in the same way Kerry used his service in Vietnam during the '04 campaign.
camus10
May 4th, 2011 at 2:09 am
well done Justin for a balanced counterpunch to RM, brilliant lady thin on reality
here is Paul Craig Roberts, thank sanity : How many Americans will have the wits to wonder why the “terror mastermind”–who defeated not merely the CIA and the FBI, but all 16 US intelligence agencies along with Israel’s Mossad and the intelligence services of NATO, who defeated NORAD, the National Security Council, the Pentagon and Joint Chiefs of Staff, the US Air Force, and Air Traffic Control, who caused security procedures to fail four times in US airports in one hour on the same day, who caused the state-of-the-art Pentagon air defenses to fail, and who managed to fly three airliners into three buildings with pilots who did not know how to fly–has not pulled off any other attack in almost ten years? Do Americans really believe that a government’s security system that can so totally fail when confronted with a few Saudi Arabians with box cutters can renew itself to perfection overnight? http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2…
camus10
May 4th, 2011 at 2:21 am
T, you otta read this piece in the Pak press. It looks like the pak military prepared the ground for this raid but understandably do not wish to be credited. Afterall, no other country has been targeted by tribal extremists. It remains doubtful whether we may be gamed by a brilliant re-election ploy by BO when OBL expired 10 years ago. Afterall, where are the surviving family from this raid, who is sheltering them. Makes one wonder.
"After completing aerial assessments, the four Pakistan Army helicopters were replaced by two US helicopters, ten minutes later. "
http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-...
camus10
May 4th, 2011 at 2:31 am
http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-dail…
tadzio
May 4th, 2011 at 3:33 am
Maddow's vitriol against Pakistan is not rooted in being a big government liberal, its source is her being an Israel Firster. She is a RACIST. It is that simple.
Raashid
May 4th, 2011 at 3:43 am
It seems the main message coming out from the US bigwigs is that the war goes on regardless. There may be a draw down from Af-Pak, but as many readers here have pointed out, these people are only for ending one war to free up resources for the next one. It won't be long before they look to reduce Syria and/or Iran to rubble.
Wootie Berster
May 4th, 2011 at 4:17 am
Well, they just can't bring home a million soldiers. There's no work for them. There's no work for them because the neofeudalist banker scum have moved all the industry offshore to various slave states in the far east etc. That wasn't "big government" that did that. It was the oligarchy.. the big (secret) government above the faux "elected" government. Bring home a million hard cases, trained to kill, proficient with every kind of weapon, and tell 'em sorry folks, no jobs for you; find yourself a nice cardboard box to sleep in and STFU.
geo1671
May 4th, 2011 at 4:30 am
Osama Been had–has worked like a charm.Yes it's a USA scam on the public,ever thought why the real purpose of the B movie play? Obvious reason, coverup and divert the news from Libya mess–especially the NATO killings (more like USI's) of Gadhafi's son and kids. Justin,it workd like a charm :^/
GradyWilson
May 4th, 2011 at 4:40 am
" I have no particular love for Rachel Maddow yet demonising her into some sort of monster that needs to "STFU" is something I would expect if I were watching Fox or another equally moronic program" – Brad
Right on. Its amazing how Justin can be such a powerful and eleqouent antiwar war voice one day and a lowbrow petulant partisan whiner the next. It does make him look small. "Shut Up, Rachel" as the title? Come on. Hire a f'ing editor to restrain these adolescent rants.
Of course maybe Justin just hates Rachel because she is a gay person who supports gay people having equal rights as opposed to Justin opposes gay marriage and finds the state treating gays as second class citizens 'erotic'. Maybe Mark Ames is right.
ronin1776
May 4th, 2011 at 4:51 am
We are having a 1914 moment here folks. People get ready, for the train's a'coming…….
emsnews
May 4th, 2011 at 4:56 am
As the US attacks Pakistan outright and violates its sovereignty, China laughs. Hu has been courting Pakistan a long time and so has Putin. They will win over the country in the end, big time. Another diplomatic disaster for us.
And the shooting of the unarmed Bin Laden was a total disaster. We didn't shoot Geronimo and he became a prisoner of war and was not tortured but lived with his family. And better still, when a mob of Texans wanted to lynch him, the military protected him and forced them to leave.
Avi of Mondoweiss
May 4th, 2011 at 5:07 am
Leave it to a Tennessean to repeatedly use the word "Paki" without batting an eyelash.
I bet you still use "ni***r" in everyday life, too.
=======
As an aside, if Pakistan is supposed to "pay dearly" for this, pray tell what should Israel pay for having intentionally killed 34 US sailors and injured 174 on board a clearly and visibly flagged USS Liberty?
lizviering
May 4th, 2011 at 5:14 am
"In short: STFU, Rachel, before you make a complete fool out of yourself."
Too late….
Phil Giraldi
May 4th, 2011 at 5:49 am
Unfortunately there are a lot of different narratives bundled together in Justin's account. I think Talha has it about right. Anyone who knows anything about the pervasiveness of Pakistani security would be convinced that someone in the system was covering up for bin Laden. How high it went is the question, but one has to doubt that the generals and top level politicians would have jeopardized their own positions by participating. Like it or not, it is in the US national interest to try to keep Pakistan stable and at least officially friendly, so the whining of people like Maddow is only throwing gasoline onto the fire. If Washington is now officially "worried" about Pakistan maybe it's time to pull out of Afghanistan and come home. Fat chance.
saggiadonna
May 4th, 2011 at 6:04 am
And you know they are in "control the world's greatest military force" how? If you have evidence, rather than pure slander, let us know, because as far as I know, it's people like the Bush's and Cheneys who started these wars, and they were not 1060s activists. Obama wasn't even around then. So, speak truth or STFU.
saggiadonna
May 4th, 2011 at 6:10 am
There's a lot to criticize Maddow about–her politics are hypocritical–but no worse than O'Donnell or Ed Schultz. So why zero in on her? And when you stoop to dragging her sexuality into the mix ("her sternest butch baritone") then you've thrown away a bit of your own credibility. Is her sexual preference the thing that gets under your skin?
Terrance&Philip
May 4th, 2011 at 6:19 am
And, though bin Laden's dead, I'm hard pressed not to say he didn't win.
In dragging us into a long drawn out war (several, actually), he's brought our nation to the brink of bankruptcy, pauperized our once sold middle class and left a large sector of the American population deeply distrustful of their "leaders." IOW, he did to us what we helped him and Al-Qa'ida do to the Soviets in Afghanistan in the '80's.
One must ask: Were the absurd misadventures of the last 10 years worth $3,000,000,000,000 and couning?
Terrance&Philip
May 4th, 2011 at 6:21 am
Then I fear if we Americans really want peace we need to put a stop to our own "leaders" first.
E.H. Munro
May 4th, 2011 at 7:14 am
Hey, we named her our Lackwit of the Month for April. She just might successfully defend the title.
J. T. Floch
May 4th, 2011 at 7:41 am
It could be that both Bodkin and Raimondo are correct. Hiding in plain sight like this is like running from the CIA, but staying right by its HQ in Langley. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, UNLESS… Maybe Osama/Tim Osman wasn't staying near the Pakistani base at all, because he's been dead for years, as reported by numerous media and officials over the last decade. In that case, some other suspect was gunned down Sunday (as stated by the neighbors), yet was(deliberately?) misidentified as OBL. In that case, we both need unimpeachable evidence to show it really was him (doubtful to confirm, since the body has been dumped to sea already), or we don't need evidence, because the official story is absurd.
This flap may be simply a disguised false flag, to get us into a full war with Pakistan.
Watson
May 4th, 2011 at 8:02 am
It's been said repeatedly that it is costing us $1mln per year per soldier in war zones such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Surely we could save a LOT of money bringing those troops home, temporarily paying them a salary and put them to work on infrastructure.
While I don't have a per-soldier cost for those just sitting on bases in Guam, Italy, Germany, etc., it would probably be a big savings on them too.
I am not saying this should be anything more than a temporary remedy. But if our extorted tax money is going to be spent anyhow, let's get some beneficial work here for a change.
AngelaKeaton
May 4th, 2011 at 8:11 am
Bad example. Ames has much to recommend him but his whole shtick was post frat-house gay anxiety and laddism.
Grady, here's the thing about us queers: We are Jews, Catholics, atheists, Muslims, white, black, brown red necks, dancers, stand up comics, engineers, peace activists, corporate shills or Lindsay Graham. It's a category, not a collective. No one person or group speaks for gays, lesbians and transgendered people and no one tells bisexuals anything.
As for Raimondo on Maddow, if what you got out of this is "supports gay people having equal rights as opposed to Justin opposes gay marriage" instead of "Jesus, Maddow is a corporate shill spokesmonkey who can't find Waziristan on a map let alone recreate the events of the last 10 years for broadcast" perhaps we are reading different articles.
Saggiadonna, Justin's wrong. There is nothing butch– strong, tough, rational –about Maddow. She's a scared little girl looking for Daddy Obama's approval. There is no room for a fully realized butch woman on English language television unless Andrew Napoltano is looking for side kick…but that's a different thread for another day.
Bodkin
May 4th, 2011 at 8:26 am
I guess that makes us even, TLK, since you've been disappointing me repeatedly with your habit of "correcting" me while remaining deafeningly silent on the excesses and far more demonstrable lapses in intelligence of many, many others here. But then, it's easier to beat up on the hated "troll" than the loyal donors, isn't it? (And then there's the easily abused power to censor legit stuff that you simply don't like…)
FYI, I knew I was being a little too casual when I wrote "somebody in Pakistan", but I was essentially summarizing Raimondo's laughable attempt to suggest that Osama's whereabouts were a secret from the government. He's obviously worried that Pakistan will be invaded next, and I certainly don't want that either, but it strains credulity to write, "there is not one scintilla of evidence that the Pakistani government, or anyone close to them, had the faintest idea the terrorist leader was hiding “in plain sight”. This incredible argument is far less nuanced than yours.
Bodkin
May 4th, 2011 at 8:32 am
And leave it to a boob like you to criticize someone's bigotry while making a bigoted generalization about Tennesseans at the same time. Are you TRYING to look stupid?
Avi of Mondowuss, thanks for joining in the noble effort to discredit Avi of Mondowuss.
backblow
May 4th, 2011 at 9:21 am
The Unabomber lasted twenty years before he was captured and he wasn't nearly as wealthy as OBL. So the US government must have known where he was?
Another well known unconvicted terrorist died last week. Otto Bosch, associate of Luis Posada Carriles, died at the age of 84 in a hospital in Miami, so I can't see how the US government couldn't have known where he could be found! The US government even paroled him after a terrorist attack on a foreign ship berthed in Miami in 1968 after which he went on to be involved in a terrorist attack that resulted in the downing of a Cuban civilian airliner when he might otherwise still have been in jail.
As Jesus said "let him who is without guilt, cast the first stone". Meanwhile, all Americans should STFU until they have dealt legally with all the terrorists that live openly among them!
Jim
May 4th, 2011 at 9:55 am
I think we just found a bigger Lefty fool than Maddow…
GradyWilson
May 4th, 2011 at 10:03 am
"Grady, here's the thing about us queers"
- There goes my fantasy out the window, but spare me the lecture on queers as a catagory rather than a collective. You must admit Justin's screed against gay marriage was either maschochistic, self loathing or both. He finds being a second class citizen 'erotic'. Please.
"Maddow is a corporate shill spokesmonkey"
- Of course! What else would you expect from a station largely owned by one of the greatest capitalist war merchants in history – GE. Is this a surprise to Justin? I thought he was a bit more sophisticated. He is and we both know it. So why then does he spit so much bile at Maddow? Maybe his hatred of liberals, advocates of gay rights, and vaginas puts him over the edge with Rachel? There's plenty of other people out there saying the same things. Why the focus on her and the adolescent "Shut Up" and "STFU". Is this what antiwar.com is about? Sincerely, an editor would be a good idea.
.
Speaking of spitting and libertarians – that's what I was referring to (jokingly) about Ames.
Terrance&Philip
May 4th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Osama bin Laden: The Six Trillion Dollar Man.
So, is there any rational person who still thinks we got our money's worth from the "War on Terror?"
gary
May 4th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
would someone please give justin a t.v. show so we can stop the pain
GradyWilson
May 4th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
"he's brought our nation to the brink of bankruptcy, pauperized our once solid middle class and left a large sector of the American population deeply distrustful of their "leaders."
That could also define George W. Bush not so ironically.
But isn't it also funny that OBL's "terrorism" has brought about the austerity measures the fascists (today called Tea Partiers) have been longing for? What else can you expect when you cut taxes while not funding wars, increased military spending, and start a new social welfare program – prescription drugs for seniors. Its almost like Bush and binLaden were working together. But that's just "conspiracy theory" BS. Its not like the Bush and bin Laden families have long term business connections or anything.
Allison Feldsham
May 4th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
I watched Monday's Rachel Maddow show also, and not once did she suggest that we should invade Pakistan, or send troops, or anything of the kind, so please refrain from bending the truth to fit your own picture of the world, or if you have doubt, double check. Also, why do you need to use words like "butch" to describe her, is it just natural cattyness? Using childish abbreviations like "STFU" , lowers the level of class I usually expect from you, and Ive been reading you since the Kosovo aggression. Don't damage your brand, but keep up your good investigative work.
Heathcliff_Maw
May 4th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Bin Laden had money and phone numbers sewn into garments. That indicates he was prepared to flee at a moment's notice. He therefore had to have friends in the Pakistani police/military/intelligence services that he expected to give him warning of an impending raid. Further, reporters from the Miami Herald spotted bin Laden in Islamabad in 2002. Their editors dismissed the sighting as a lookalike because we "knew" OBL was hiding in caves along Pakistan's western border.
As David Dayen of Firedog Lake points out, it seems certain that Pakistan had foreknowledge of the raid and cooperated, perhaps under threat of some sort of retribution if the compound were abandoned when the SEALS got there. The electricity in the area went out two hours prior to the raid and was restored 15 minutes after. Four helicopters went in and out of the country "undetected" in spite of a 40-minute firefight and one of the copters being blown up in an area containing a military academy and filled with high-ranking military.
So Pakistan was likely double dealing, but had reason to give up OBL. Pakistan's claims of not knowing about the raid are for their domestic consumption.
camus10
May 4th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
the jury is still out there on OBL. The FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds disclosed OBL was a paid CIA asset well upto 911. There are documented estimates of OBLs demise 10 years ago and by one former prime minister in 2007.
It is uncertain if this raid is just another ploy to assassinate some octogenarian in far flung mountain villa and use it as a pretext to do a victory dance to draw down in Afpk. My reading is there was a deal between CIA and ISI. In exchange for NATO pull out and capitulation to local power dynamics, we get a probable publicity stunt to boost flagging ratings for BOs re-election and tighten the pentagons budget.
Your estimate of China RU gaining here is right on. Just 10 days ago, there was that visit by the Pak PM Gillani to kabul, where they reportedly tried to ply Karzai away from the US and foisted Chinese help in rebuilding
Sam
May 4th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
Pakistan is afraid of India, a US-Isral closer ally.
John_Muhammad
May 4th, 2011 at 3:40 pm
If people are so incensed about Pakistan's alleged involvement in the hiding of OBL, maybe they should put their money where their mouth is and strap on some boots and go to war. Yes, that's right- if you're THAT upset about it trot on down to your local recruiting station and sign up- and make sure to specify you want combat duty in Pakistan. Can't make the cut for the US military? No problem, you can follow in the footsteps of the Americans who went to war in Spain in the 30's during their Civil War- hop on a boat, plane, tramp steamer, whatever you have to do to get to Pakistan and hook up with some anti-government outfit and have yourself a grand time showing The Man how we do thing downtown, USA-style.
Prediction #1: the next war you participate in will be on your television, and you'll be drinking beer and cheering for Norris or Stallone.
Prediction #2: the last time you shot a gun you had to play on the cowboy side because there were too many indians.
If you're not willing to grab a rifle yourself and take it to Pakistan to give them the business, indeed ST*U and sit down like you always do when you're called out. You can get back to the most bloody and stressful thing you've ever done in your life now; I'm pretty sure that the Tuesday World of Warcraft maintenance has been wrapped up by now.
GradyWilson
May 4th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
"please refrain from bending the truth to fit your own picture of the world ….. why do you need to use words like "butch" to describe her, is it just natural cattyness? Using childish abbreviations like "STFU" , lowers the level of class I usually expect from you, and I've been reading you since the Kosovo aggression. Don't damage your brand, but keep up your good investigative work. " -Allison Feldsham
Are you listening Justin?
Jobad
May 4th, 2011 at 6:10 pm
This article makes you sound really stupid Justin. You honestly think of all the places in Pakistan and Afghanistan the best hiding place Osama could find was in a military neighbourhood in a suburb of Islamabad. I don't know how much you know about how things work in Pakistan but these neighbourhoods in Pakistan are extremely difficult to access for an outsider.
Dan Raphael
May 4th, 2011 at 6:33 pm
Interesting comments–the discussions here are never boring! I actually think that Justin's casual style of writing fits well with the rest of the site. Saying in an analytical opinion piece that someone should "STFU" is not out of line–after all, this isn't a college thesis. One of the things that leftists–many of them academics, in mindset if not profession–tend to do is to avoid language used by "the commoners." For all the blather about being for "the people," when the language of the people actually is employed, it's a step down, Incorrect, etc., etc., etc.
Okay–so I was surprised about the "butch" thing and all…hell, I have never watched or heard Maddow, so I only know her by reputation. If I have any reservation about this article, it's that so much attention and text is devoted to her. Is she important and influential? Really? Does Hillary check for Maddow's opinions on matters? Does Obama phone?
Anyway, I thought the article interesting, lively, and thought-provoking.
Minnesota Mary
May 4th, 2011 at 7:44 pm
Rachel Maddow is the Queen of Snark……or maybe I should say the Prince of Snark.
MvGuy
May 4th, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Yaa Bodkin…You keep it up.. You are on to the often gray sided thoughtstream here…
But the clincher for me…… "After all, the 9/11 hijackers were living in America – some of them legally – when they struck: does that mean the US was “hiding” them? Of course not. It simply means they escaped detection – and, given the information we have to date, that’s all it means. Period."
Yaa just another of those odd 911 coincidences like NORAD bein a no show……. An whatz with all the empty kool aid containers???????????
Bodkin
May 4th, 2011 at 9:56 pm
If the hijackers were living in the USA "when they struck", they weren't actually GUILTY of anything yet, were they? They weren't wanted men BEFORE they committed a crime. You see, the way it works is FIRST you commit a heinous crime, THEN you're put on a MOST WANTED list. See how that works?
Osama was the MOST WANTED MAN on the planet, living in a very conspicuous compound adjacent to a military base with constant helicopter flyovers for six years. It's hardly a function of "kool aid" drinking to suspect that his whereabouts were widely known.
What's truly laughable is the spectacle of all the paranoid nuts who condemn Israel for controlling everything including the weather now claiming that any suspicion of Pakistan in this matter is a sure sign of mental derangement.
Catherine Lieutenant
May 5th, 2011 at 4:35 am
Dear Mr. Raimondo,
You should read this : http://www.voltairenet.org/article169714.html
when they put it online in english (matter of hours surely).
Best regards,
Catherine
Iliya Pavlovich
May 5th, 2011 at 10:29 am
"WE" to punish Pakistan? Not going to happen. We are a country of politically correct wimps and spinless cowards (for the most part). The time to examine our devotion to Pakistan has long gone and never came to fruition. We seem to forget that our arbitrary divison (Islam vs. Radical Islam) exists only in our heads. Islam is an ideology and creed more so than a religion. Today, Pakistan (a strongly Islamic country – with not much of a proud past) has asked for the US troops reduction in Pakistan as retaliation to the raid which killed OBL. So much for keep your friends close, but your enemies CLOSER.
iliya pavlovich
May 5th, 2011 at 10:31 am
Sorry make that SPINEless cowards
iliya pavlovich
May 5th, 2011 at 11:24 am
We have not had any free (let alone independent) media for decades – all those Pakistani "aided" arrests were just a brain-washing soap opera put out by our government to indoctrinate us with the alleged differentiation of the good Islam versus "Radical islam" – there is no such difference – it's one and the same. Now the good Islam is seeking vengance and reduction of the "good American troops". Read all about it: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110505/ap_on_re_as/a…
!WARNOW! thinknever
May 5th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
You are selectively correct, but the Obama/Hillary crowd started the war in Libya, expanded the Afghan war and pushed into Pakistan — and they claim the right to keep on going, as they choose.
!WARNOW! don't think
May 5th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
Do you dispute that the US military is the world's greatest military force?
whatever
May 5th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
OK so the fucking decade is wrong, you know what I mean. The fucking anti- crowd, who turned into the pro- crowd.
60's70's whatever
May 5th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
You know what the golly heck was meant by that.
liveload
May 5th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
I find myself very skeptical of any MSM narrative regarding OBL or AQ. What I want to know is why are we being treated to this particular theatre right now.
liveload
May 5th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Sorry, meant to say "on the 4th"
augustus818
May 5th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
I love it when tough guys like start crying like little bitches. WAAAAHHH!!! HE'S INSULTING PEOPLE IN ORDER TO DISCOURAGE MILITARY INTERVENTION!!! You've gotten everything you wanted and then some. Bin Laden's head on a silver platter, Iraq and Afghanistan bow at your feet (well, maybe not so much on that count), and Lybia's getting ripped a new one as we speak. If that won't satisfy your bloodlust I don't know … maybe we should start bombing Wisconsin and Canada.
Bianca
May 5th, 2011 at 4:42 pm
The best question. I thought that the theater was absolutely necessary after the murder of Gadhafi's son, one who was utterly unconnected to politics, and just came from Germany to visit, when the problems started. And then, THREE little children were murdered as well. Not UNDER TWELVE, but UNDER THREE. One three, one two and the third just four months old. The house was a single story, two bedroom house, and nobody could claim that it was a command and control center. It was so riduculous, and the funeral on Monday was attended by many religious leaders from Tripoli, including Catholic and Ortodox bishops — so another powerfull story was needed to obliterate that one from the air. Since the whereabouts of OBL were known for a while, I would assume that they were able to get him any time at will. They were just waiting for the most bang for the buck from the news cycle point of view. Personally, I thought it would have been more usefull closer to the elections, but the whole Lybian mess was pressing.
Bianca
May 5th, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Time to come home. Sounds like an excellent bumper sticker. But no hope of that.
Bianca
May 5th, 2011 at 5:19 pm
EXACTLY. We need some common sense, kitchen table math. We can BRING THEM HOME, place them into any number of now vacant bases, commercial office space, and have them any number of foreclosed homes. That can all be paid easily from what we now pay per soldier. But this is now where the benefits end. Our people would spend money here, and boost economy. From office space to pizza delivery would all make money. Out of this million per year, we can pay part in salary, and benefits. Use other part to pay for the office/base space per year, and buy out of the first year's million a good foreclosed house for each soldier, or pay off their mortgages if they owe any. Give them money to buy cars, pay for school. AND ALL THIS MONEY WILL BE SPENT RIGHT HERE.
Dr.Khan
May 6th, 2011 at 3:48 am
Bodkin you have a point there but,what about all the informations they had gatthered on them over time,What about Condy meeting about warnings on the attack and lets suppose that doesn't satisfies you at all what about busting OBL unarmed and killing him right away.Don't you know he was accused yet to be found GUILTY of the crimes he was accused of.Which court of the law passed decree of his Death on the spot.
9/11 was a False Flag Opperation to start with and now it has ended with a False Flag PSYOP..Prove it otherwise it was him got killed on 5/2 for the 9th time.
Dr.Khan
May 6th, 2011 at 4:20 am
Can U Prove that OBL was the one got killed that Day,just one little proof.We are about to Punish our Govt and ARMY both for this Fiasco anyway but can you,I repeat,Can you repeat that OBL was killed.
Simply stop spitting venom for now,then we will discuss the matter.
mickperry
May 6th, 2011 at 6:14 pm
Phil I respectfully suggest that you're flat wrong on the question of 'stability'. I don't buy the murder as 'cynical electioneering ploy', and neither do I think that the execution was carried out so that we can finally declare 'mission accomplished' and leave Afghanistan. We are staying put, and the Great Game continues. Given what we saw in Iraq therefore, where a nation state was purposefully demolished, is it not conceivable that our masters have the same fate planned for Pakistan, sans invasion? Remember that Pakistan is the only Muslim country with a nuclear deterrent, and ask yourself which nations are the most likely to be pissed at this reality? I'd guess Israel and India. The one guaranteed way that you could foment civil war in Pakistan would be to divide the military, which is in my view what is now likely to happen. I'd be very interested to read an article explaining why you believe it is in the US's interests to maintain stability in Pakistan, because I believe the very opposite is perceived to be the case by our leaders. Their actions over the past three years have notably destabilised the country after all, and this is not an accident.
iliya pavlovich
May 7th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
I don't think that it matters if OBL is dead or alive. He has developed AQ in a very shrewed and an extremely intelligent manner. Each unit is composed of several cells – even the cells operate independently of one another so that the blame or "paper trail" of any responsibility can always be denied. It's perfectly enough to indoctrinate thousands of destitute people that their misery is a result of British Imperialist rule, American greed for oil, French neo-colonial aspirations and they have a valid vent to use and spew their reasonably justifiable anger. One of the main shortcomings of Islam is precisely that element of vengence, blood-letting and overt propensity towards unrestrained violence as a "solution". In most historical instances nothing could be farther from the truth – but it does have elements of self-righteousness that appear somewhat redeeming. Israel is keeping perfect pace with that same logic and although it escapes me it seems to serve very well in the Middle East. OBL was a figurehead and a very bright man who almost foresaw his own demise but divested himself of most power (unlike Muhammad).
iliya pavlovich
May 7th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
I can tell by the negative ratings here that most of us are well brainwashed and unable to grasp the gravity of the problems we are all facing (sometimes including Justin).
The facts are clear, irrefutable and uncontroverted:
a) Our media has lost all sense of objectify and serves the governemt (and/or) their sponsors with absolute and utter disregard for the TRUTH – let alone a HIGHER TRUTH or a GREATER GOOD which is the first reason we have a political aparatus. The old Greeks did it better and more efficiently without iPods, Internet, radio, TV, etc.
b) In words of Edward Abbey: "A true patriot must always be prepared to protect his country from his government".
(continues)
iliya pavlovich
May 7th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
continuation:
c) Alfred (Lord) Tennyson: "half a truth is ever the blackest lie"
d) Benjamin Franklin: "Experience keeps a dear (costly, expensive) school, but a fool will learn from no other."
e) Edmund Burke: "All the is necessary for the evil to triumph is that the good men stay silent"
Either kill off all these brilliant men or face the facts, giving me negative ratings won't help bring our soldiers homw – OBL is dead – mission accomplished bring our boys home, what do we have to do with Libya? Another stupid war that can only get worse before it gets better – if ever. The real estate and the financial collapse of the US didn't happen overnight – it's a result of decades of stealing (people's trust, money, 401s, etc. etc.) – somebody is to blame and it is not the average Joe. Try aiming a lot higher.
eric siverson
August 30th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
I think Chinia may have the worlds greatest military force . If You are not going by size than I think Israel or maybe even Serbia , As Serbs have most decoration , such as US medals of honor . than any other groupe .
eric siverson
August 30th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
I know exsactly what you are talking about . The antiwar crowd like Bill Clinton escaped to Cananda , Came back here as president and started a war bombing Yugoslavia .
2) DIPLOMATIE IN CARJE – sept 2011 | gerulia
May 15th, 2013 at 8:52 am
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